Comments

I’ve covered lots and lots of Rubicon features that I’m positive about (and there’s one or two more coming), but I also want to cover one that I’m less than enthused by.

Go through the list of EVE’s ship classes and you’ll find that most are historical — frigate, destroyer, cruiser, battleship, freighter. Most of those that remain are descriptive — command ship, interdictor, stealth bomber, interceptor, logistics. It’s quite arguable that only one ship class name in EVE Online is picturesque and fanciful, not describing the ship at all. That is the marauder. The first marauders were French deserters from armies of the Thirty Years War in the late middle ages. Historically, the word has has come to refer to hit-and-run bandits or thieves, particularly those operating in groups. Over time in English, the word has even picked up a slightly romanticized subtext.

So it’s totally appropriate that the name be applied to a class of ships that almost always operate alone, perform tasks that couldn’t be more legal or more boring, and quite often do so while completely stationary.

OK yeah, maybe that was a little off-sides. Sorry. 😉

Anyway, when the CSM first learned that these ships were to receive a first rebalance pass, I was initially excited. For years, the only real use a marauder could be put to outside tournament play was missions. Sure, you’d see the very very occasional Kronos being used as a substitute Vindicator thanks to T2 resists. But for the most part, the ships were relegated nearly 100% to solo risk-free PvE with no other use. I was looking forward to seeing some interesting PvP use cases thrown in for this ship.

Which is why I’m much less than thrilled to see that after no less than two full series of revamps, including a brand new fitting mod, dozens of CSM posts, and thousands of player posts, they’re going to be relegated nearly 100% to solo risk-free PvE with no other use. So far, I haven’t heard of anyone — small gang, medium, or large fleet — building a doctrine around these things for PvP… with one exception that I’ll talk about shortly.

That would be bad enough. But now the thing is not only relegated to risk-free solo PvE, it’s completely, hilariously over-powered at it. Even in CCP tests, dropping a single one of these things into an L4 mission results in the undoing of several years of nerfs to high-sec missioning as a high-value income stream. It clears the mission with ease, never at even the slightest amount of risk, and thanks to long-range firepower does so extremely rapidly. It will be routine to do four or even five L4 missions in an hour solo in a marauder of your choice. With only one of these, you’ll be able to routinely make 60-70 million ISK per hour with a return on investment of about 24 hours of play. And with two run from a single machine dual-boxing, I’m having a hard time imagining less than a 100 million ISK per hour income.

The most painful part of the process is going to be the warp from mission to mission, something that can be mitigated somewhat by having a third character request and return all missions, warping into each completed mission with an interceptor before warping the fleet composing the two marauders to the next one. That will save the marauders having to dock.

You’ll certainly be able to make more ISK running havens with Vargurs and the like in null-sec and I’m sure those in deep null with good intel channels will do so. But for the rest of us, why bother? We’ll have access to an unlimited, no-sharing-needed, zero-risk ISK faucet that’s nearly as good.

This is going to have a few downstream effects, all aggravating. First, we’re going to see a slacking off of group PvE such as low-end wormholes and incursion sites. Given that solo income is more easily available, requires less travel time and less risk, and will be capable of equivalent or near-equivalent ISK-making, why bother with group PvE? In my opinion, this is bad for the game. Second, marauders are hugely tanky, which is going to result in ships that can be pimped to levels where suicide ganking them will be extremely difficult. In my opinion, this reduction in perceived risk is also bad for the game. And third, of course these ships are only open to those that can fly tech2 battleships… in other words, the very same people who least needed the help.

Finally, if all of that wasn’t bad enough, PvE isn’t the only place the Bastion Module is hilariously over-powered. Oh no, for those of you who didn’t see marauders in action during SCL5, just wait until the next New Eden Open. While finding a PvP niche for marauders on Tranquility is going to be challenging, in a points-governed, numbers-limited tournament match, it’s going to be all marauders all the time. As I mentioned during my own wrap-up posts on SCL5, we got to see both a Golem and a Kronos hold off nearly an entire enemy team single-handedly. The rest of you will be seeing it soon. The NEO organizers will have to set the points cost of these things to an absurd number to prevent them from dominating the proceedings.

So yeah, all in all it’s safe to say I’m not a fan. If you’re doing solo L4 missions and you don’t have one or two of these, you might want to fix that. For those of you that have them already, enjoy several months of a massive income buff!

– Ripard Teg

65 Comments

  1. I just do not know

    Stop moaning about them, I want to at least try them as they are now before the inevitable nerf… and at the moment the only one I can fly is the Golem, I want the Paladin on both my main toons!!!

    November 19, 2013 at 8:45 pm Reply
  2. Timothy Ryan Silcox

    i tried them out running 4’s on the test server and your numbers are pretty accurate, but i think a nerf wouldn’t be the answer.. maybe a full reworking of how marauders work and what their role is.

    November 19, 2013 at 9:16 pm Reply
    1. guest

      “maybe a full reworking of how marauders work and what their role is”
      For some reason this sounds extremely familiar.

      November 19, 2013 at 11:40 pm Reply
  3. asdasda

    bahahaha http://imgur.com/pCuilAX no way bastion mods will be admitted to alliance tournament.

    November 19, 2013 at 9:27 pm Reply
    1. shadoos eyebrows

      cant use that clone in alliance tourneys

      November 20, 2013 at 7:40 am Reply
  4. Navo

    I disagree. I really like the marauder changes.

    November 19, 2013 at 9:42 pm Reply
  5. ghost

    I agree with jester, but i still love the new changes

    November 19, 2013 at 9:44 pm Reply
  6. csm8 is shit

    Is this the csm minutes? Of course not CSM 8 is shit.

    November 19, 2013 at 10:01 pm Reply
  7. Ghavost

    I dont agree or disagree, im ambivalent about the changes

    November 19, 2013 at 10:39 pm Reply
  8. EasyKill

    I had a lot of fun on Sisi using a non-bastion fit Vargur, bouncing around grid with the MJD and nuking anything that came close. These will be a lot of fun on TQ.

    November 19, 2013 at 11:27 pm Reply
    1. Weston Millar

      I hope to god that you weren’t using actual nuclear ammo tho to pop chumps so quickly. If that’s the case then they are waaaaaaay too OP.

      November 20, 2013 at 1:44 am Reply
  9. Voda

    Just don’t allow bastion in highsec. There fixed.

    November 20, 2013 at 12:43 am Reply
    1. I just do not know

      What, you mad, these things are great for POS bashing in High Sec!!!!

      November 20, 2013 at 6:58 am Reply
  10. Mike

    I don’t get it…. getting 60 mil an hour is not that great really. Can make atleast double that in incursions, and it’s just as risk free.

    November 20, 2013 at 12:50 am Reply
    1. war anyone?

      I didn’t realize solo incursion running was risk free.

      November 20, 2013 at 1:17 am Reply
      1. it should be

        I believe it’s possible to solo a VG in a new marauder. It’s got enough tank and won’t get jammed.

        The only poblem is, it would be ISK free. Because 5 ships on site min.

        November 20, 2013 at 8:50 am Reply
    2. Poopsmith

      He’s full of crap. Average incursions are about 70mil/hour, once you get running, less whatever time you spent spanking it trying to get a fleet, which can be hours. Where people get numbers over that, let alone “120mil/hr,” I have no idea.

      November 20, 2013 at 5:58 am Reply
      1. what

        70m/h is a low estimation for a crappy VG fleet. It’s 8,5min tick-to tick doing VGs and not counting LP.

        An average non-blinged HQ fleet can do 90m/h before LP.

        November 20, 2013 at 6:06 am Reply
        1. Poopsmith

          I’ll bow to your superior knowledge on HQs. However, how often is an HQ fleet running, compared to typical VG milking? …Not very. Again, you’ll wait for hours, maybe days, and technically that should be deducted from your per-hour profit.

          I stand by bullshit call regarding 120mil/hour RELIABLY in incursions. Incursions are “good money,” but it’s not the cash faucet all the nullbears in Drakes seem to perceive it as.

          November 20, 2013 at 4:42 pm Reply
          1. very often

            In my group during my prime it’s always HQ.
            That being said, yes, queue does exist. And personally I prefer VGs anyway because more relaxed.
            THAT being said, I’ve seen a screenshot by a guy in our group with 1bil done in 7,5 hours on incursions. Which makes sustained 120m/h very much possible. If you have some dedication and no life, that is.

            November 21, 2013 at 8:36 am
  11. bla

    And how will these change the incursion landscape?

    November 20, 2013 at 1:09 am Reply
  12. Blergh

    I hope some more wealthy alliances come up with some cool doctrines before the bastion module gets nerfed. Hopefully we can get to see it before CCP hears this whine article and insta nerfs the crap out of it.

    November 20, 2013 at 1:53 am Reply
  13. CCPLeSimple

    Maybe the ratts are hilariously underpowered, mr.Teg…?

    November 20, 2013 at 2:56 am Reply
  14. hah

    Implying they’re better than a machariel in anything but not having to fit deadspace tank.
    Implying they are better than tengu at blitzing.

    You don’t get isk for tanking things. You get isk for killing things fast. Or you get LP for completing missions fast. New marauders aren’t really that good at either.

    The more interesting part is, a well fit marauder can local tank a VG site in bastion. We may see 10DPS no logi VG fleets.

    November 20, 2013 at 3:46 am Reply
    1. guest

      “We may see 10DPS no logi VG fleets.”
      Here hoping mistakes will be made and some will die without anyone able to save them.

      November 20, 2013 at 8:00 pm Reply
  15. Vandar

    The root point of this article is that he cant gank any bling’d out marauders in high sec anymore
    – if you’re using one of these bad boys for high sec L4’s then you’re being efficient. Overpowered .. LOL, that’s like saying T3’s aren’t overpowered … I mean a cruiser with more HP than most Battleships? Not overpowered at all. As for Null ratting. You could tank 10/10s before this change – this just means when some shitwad comes to hotdrop you he’ll need to bring a lot of his BLOPS buddies or will get tanked – they least they could do is fit sweet faction mods in case the 10/10s don’t drop anything :)

    November 20, 2013 at 4:22 am Reply
    1. Devore

      I thought mission ships were rarely buffer tanked, and Marauder bonuses are to active tanking.

      November 20, 2013 at 5:04 am Reply
      1. Vandar

        indeed you would never buffer tank – but any half on-to-it pilot would never leave his bling’d out 3bill+ ship to its fate going through gates even in highsec. Considering you can activate your hardeners as you decloak and activate bastion you would need a crap load of Nado’s or Talos to take on down.

        November 20, 2013 at 9:13 am Reply
        1. Dumbledore

          Sir, I think that you grossly overestimate the average highsec pilot.

          November 20, 2013 at 9:17 am Reply
          1. Vandar

            Totally – we’ve ganked tons of Marauders on gates which blows my mind. That’s why I said “any half on-to-it” pilot :) – this excludes lots of people.

            November 20, 2013 at 9:21 am
          2. Dumbledore

            Statistics show that 95% of highsec people are worse than the average highsec people. And my statistics are sound statistics.

            November 20, 2013 at 1:31 pm
          3. Twinkletoes

            Yes thats true, but 83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

            November 20, 2013 at 2:24 pm
          4. Vandar

            and only 78% of those made up on the spot statistics are verified

            November 20, 2013 at 6:23 pm
    2. Blurf

      Rubicon marauders, in general, still aren’t as efficient as some existing ships / fits at running missions. I’m amazed at how many people think they’re going to be L4 pwnmobiles. They aren’t due to a combination of poor dps application and poor maneuverability. The Vargur is really the only one worth considering for L4 missions. If you like afk missioning, stick with your drone boat. If you like making ISK or blitzing, stick with the Machariel or Hamgu.

      November 20, 2013 at 9:59 am Reply
      1. Vandar

        Once again – looking at it from a mission running perspective. If you need to spend multi bill on ships to run level 4’s you’re doing it wrong. trust me when I say… I’ve flown both Machs and Hamgu’s and they’ve got nothing on the likes of a vargur for running Null complex’s where incoming DPS is over 2k

        November 20, 2013 at 6:22 pm Reply
  16. nib

    So it ids the first day the patch it out and ripard expects them o be used the first day the patch comes out how laughable.

    November 20, 2013 at 5:13 am Reply
    1. nib

      in pvp

      November 20, 2013 at 5:13 am Reply
  17. Newt

    Wow, I completely disagree with absolutely everything about this post. This is what Marauders always should have been – tanktastic, expensive as balls, no-fails PvE hisec boats for mostly solo players that like steady mission running income…nevermind why. If you want a couple-billion PvP boat, get a dread; if you want gank, get a faction BS. If you want to “gank carebears,” find a miner. FFS, let these ships excel at SOMETHING before they become completely unused.

    November 20, 2013 at 5:51 am Reply
  18. lee

    Marauders are a pretty skill intensive ship to learn to fly compared to a faction BS. The results need to be noticeably worth the effort. That is why I welcome the changes. I really disagree with Mr Teg’s comments.

    November 20, 2013 at 6:11 am Reply
  19. I haven’t had time to test this (or read about it) cuz of exams, but can anyone verify if the MJD can be spooled up in the last few seconds of bastion mode so that u can immediately micro jump upon exiting bastion? Cuz that would make the Marauders very slippery indeed to the fast tackle :/

    November 20, 2013 at 6:48 am Reply
  20. Ze Noob

    i like the way u call a Marauder with a bastion mod 100% risk free PVE because the Tengu isn’t that already with a 1000 + DPS omni tank and speed to match decent DPS i mean that was never in the game to begin with this bastion mod has breathed new life into Marauders.

    oh and just FYI it does have a PVP application massive tank and can shoot stuff causing high DPS wait wait no no no ur right no PVP application there at all none what so ever also Kronous webs massive tank high DPS very nice.

    and even if it didn’t have a PVP application how would that be different to the current Marauders i mean and what is wrong with carebears getting one i mean i’m a veteran PVP pilot myself however i have no issue with carebears they play this they want i kill them because i want too that the way this game works

    November 20, 2013 at 7:17 am Reply
  21. Blurf

    I tested all of the marauders on the Singularity test server across quite a lot of different L4 missions. In general:

    * The Golem is terrible (A Maelstrom is just as good in most missions).
    * The Kronos is quite good providing the rat spawns aren’t > 50K away (MJD can help a bit).
    * The Paladin is still really poor against the “wrong” faction.
    * The Vargur is pretty good.

    Using the MJD is fun but rarely makes things more efficient than an AB Machariel. Timing the bastion module for spawns so that you can MJD when you want is a bit of a p.i.t.a. and sometimes is of no help at all depending on where the gate to the next room is. Yes I know you can MJD twice, but that costs time and sometimes means you’re nowhere near any rats for over a minute. In this time a Machariel has covered a lot of ground whilst keeping rats within a good range to apply a lot of damage.

    On the whole they’re all going to be slower than my Mach for L4 mission ISK printing, with the exception of the Vargur which is probably about equal.

    As for Ripard Teg’s blog…

    He’s sometime right on the money. This time he’s a long way off. The most efficient method for printing ISK in L4 missions has not changed – just continue using your Machariel. Or if you prefer semi-afk missioning, continue using your drone boat. Use marauders for their novelty factor if you must, but you’ll be back to more efficient methods in no time.

    November 20, 2013 at 9:31 am Reply
    1. LetThereBeDeflation

      All I learned from this:
      Nerf the machariel!
      Remove bounties!
      Remove incursion ISK payout!

      November 20, 2013 at 1:33 pm Reply
  22. Tiago D'Agostini

    Just one comment.. what? Since when the new changes made marauders level 4 runing risk free? Its was ALREADY risk free! Even a t1 battleships is 100% risk free if you do not loose connection!

    In fact now you have SOME risk, because if you disconnet while in bastion moed, you die ( you never warp off).

    Second, Marauders WERE used a LOT in other scenario, incursions, the paladin and kronos web bonus was used a lot. Now they were nerfed for incursions.

    Absolute nothign has reduced the already low risk of this PVE activity.

    The income per hour BARELY changed. In fact the marauder that used to be the fastest one on making isk per hour, the vargur, now makes less isk per hour.

    Before the expansion a vargur or machariel could do upwards 80 Mil isk per hour blitzing. Now the vargur makes less.

    Bad article from someone that has very very little knowledge of what is been written about.

    November 20, 2013 at 9:51 am Reply
    1. NoirWolf

      Well speaking from experience I can tell you for quite a while marauders were second best to the tengu at running high risk missions like Worlds Collide because unlike say the gollem the tengu can refocus its fire quickly and effectively on tacklers to get out of dodge if the 2nd room is fully aggroed by accident (glitch or misfiring).

      November 20, 2013 at 10:28 am Reply
  23. WP ccp

    Once again buff winmatar, and kick into the nuts for amarr. Minmatar is given best dps without cap need for guns, lol-asbs and BC-speed, paladin is left behind with 3 boni instead of 4, further speednerf and a HUGE nerf to dps thanks to removal of sentry drones. Ofc they also removed the 90%-web, which was probably the only real good thing about it anyways.

    GG balancing

    November 20, 2013 at 10:39 am Reply
    1. exTesticle

      Why using web when you can “snipe” frigs with blasters even from 60km ?HUGE nerf lol !They took one sentry drone from your control and that’s HUGE ?Before 3 now 2 loled again. Kronos recieved 50 % falloff bonus. You can MJD actually every cycle of Bastion mode. Gotta love this “nerf” ! Dude u sure you have skills for maraders ?

      November 20, 2013 at 3:32 pm Reply
    2. Grammar Nazi

      The plural of bonus is bonuses, not boni. What is it with the kids today? No understanding of spelling or grammar, that’s what.

      November 21, 2013 at 2:12 pm Reply
      1. Michał Ostrowski

        IMO thisis some new EVEO fad

        November 21, 2013 at 2:38 pm Reply
  24. Tiago D'Agostini

    Are you drunk? Paladin is IMENSELY more pwoerfult han vargur in Rubicon!!!

    RANGE bonus is insane! My tachyons can hit with MF at 60 km!!! That without ANY tracking computer!!!

    The vargur is the one that is WEAKER now than it used to be.

    After yesterday I just solvd my vargur and rejoiced on my paladin!

    November 20, 2013 at 11:02 am Reply
    1. vastboy

      Having just read most of the comments, there is only one poster who comes across as being drunk. (hint: look in the mirror)

      November 20, 2013 at 11:27 am Reply
      1. Gsy

        I did have a little pee come out in excitement when i got in my paladin yesterday and noticed the increase to my optimial with pulses….then i remembered it was still missioning so whatever :-)
        Lots of comments the the maurader is now too overpowered but been running my mach in lvl 4s, when bored, with just a much deeps for ages so I see no issues, how much tank do you want…how much tank do you need? Could see a rerererevamp of missions coming soon though.
        Will mean however can be less pimped so less gankable, agree with that.
        DELETED
        Was going to suggest the possiblity of some PVP application but on review, i think you can get better for cheaper or just fly a mach…

        November 20, 2013 at 1:25 pm Reply
        1. Gsy

          Maybe this does have a place in PVP, hold the line….

          November 20, 2013 at 1:34 pm Reply
  25. LOL.

    buying extremly expensive ships that only slightly perform better than their much cheaper t1 counterparts seems stupid.
    for example: the tiericide with cruisers lead to a lot more people going for the much cheaper t1 cruisers.
    Thats what you get for closing the gap.

    November 20, 2013 at 11:19 am Reply
  26. Tiago D'Agostini

    Then Try the ships. I have both and the paladin is FAR superior now. I completed 11 missiosn yesterday without even taking enoguh damage to deplete my paladin SHIELDS!!! Because it can project massive dps at insane ranges now.

    November 20, 2013 at 11:32 am Reply
  27. Jesus Loves You

    Yeah, they are way OP – until they get neuted. Then they die fast as fuck.

    Learn 2 Eve please!

    November 20, 2013 at 11:57 am Reply
    1. Newt

      Or jammed with ECM by a frigate, which has always been an intended vulnerability hole for Marauders.

      November 20, 2013 at 4:48 pm Reply
      1. Cloora

        Well, out of Bastion mode. In Bastion the are immune to jamming.

        November 20, 2013 at 4:55 pm Reply
  28. jelly filling

    “But for the rest of us, why bother? We’ll have access to an unlimited, no-sharing-needed, zero-risk ISK faucet that’s nearly as good” in other words nullsec needs better rewards / highsec needs to be dragged out back and shot.

    November 20, 2013 at 12:21 pm Reply
    1. NoirWolf

      High-sec is boring as shit, the only one that needs dragging out back and shot is the moron who suggests null sec is less fun than high sec or less profitable (they’re roughly equal but aside from missioning nothing is a sure fire isk faucet and missioning after 2 months… yeah… you’re rather suicide a marauder vs a titan).

      November 20, 2013 at 3:19 pm Reply
  29. orly?

    Sorry – but the Bastion mode is just too dangerous to use in 0.0 esp. with the changes made to ‘ceptors. SURE – you’re invulnerable to pointing while you’re in it but it’s just too much time. I’ve been caught -once- in 3 years of ratting in null and was lucky enough to kill the tackler.

    I have used a Golem most of that time and been -very- happy with the ship. If a site was worth 35M isk I’d get 41 out of it just in meta guns and the occasional T2 salvage. Also the Golem is so ammo-efficient I basically never need to buy T1 missiles (anti-frig) or auto-targeting (good vs jammers) ever.

    Now the fun’s basically over for that ship in 0.0. If I ever go back to high sec I’ll use it again. The silly warp-through-bubbles speed of the Interceptors means only scouted pipes / end points will be viable and even then you could be in trouble. In testing we found that one system of warning was not always enough (bastion on) and if you were reporting the ceptor in the system you were in you were almost certainly hosed even without the bastion module.

    Ratting aligned (no bastion ofc) works but of course harder to salvage and eventually your range to spawns gets on the long side. The upside there is the additional time you get to warp out since the tackler will almost certainly not have you scanned down – they’re just warping to the site hoping you’re at zero.

    November 20, 2013 at 2:48 pm Reply
  30. Cloora

    Anything that has bonuses for active tanks will likely never be used for fleet doctrines.

    However, these things will be great in small gang low sec PvP. That would be in situations where you need to punch above your weight and you have some good tacklers to keep things locked down. Think of situations you would use a Dual XLASB Mael (or pair of them)

    I think that Marauders will be even better with good GTFO ability if you ARE overwhelmed.

    I can think of several PvP applications for them, but yes large fleet doctrines no…

    November 20, 2013 at 4:59 pm Reply
    1. neon

      yet the Maelstrom is still in use by many alliances as the preferred Alpha-boat. But prolly only because the Tempest is a bit worse in that role.

      November 20, 2013 at 5:25 pm Reply
      1. Vandar

        That’s because the hull doesn’t cost 1bill like vargur

        November 20, 2013 at 6:25 pm Reply
  31. alx

    Well, you got to understand that this is a way to play eve, and you should respect that.

    November 20, 2013 at 8:22 pm Reply

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