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The Fair Chase Principle. Some know what it is, some don’t. Let me start with those who don’t know what it is.

The Fair Chase Principle is a common practice in the sport hunting community. The basics of the Fair Chase Principle is that the prey must have a chance to escape. To put it into perspective, they are a list of rules/guidelines which ethical huntsmen follow. “The shooting of captured/sedated wildlife” is a huge no no. Along with the use of mechanized forms of transport. If it guarantees a kill, its highly frowned upon. The prey needs to stand a fair chance of getting away.

How does this apply to EVE? Well, it doesn’t really. We capture (warp bubbles) and sedate (cap neuts/ webs) our prey. Heck, we use mechanized forms of transports (spaceships DOH!). HOWEVER….

Note: What I am about to get into is not only opinion, it is me posing the questions for you to respond to. I will at least be paying close attention to the comments, so please make them constructive instead of “Whine Less Carebear” or “You suck at EVE, Uninstall”.

Does the Fair Chase principle not tie in with balanced? Well, in a game, balance refers to a mechanics potency vs its countermeasure. For example, we deal lots of damage with our weapons (Lets focus on Railguns). Unprotected, none of us would last. So to balance, our ships have resistances. Stack your kinetic resistance and railguns could be reduced to glorified pea shooters.

With that basic idea of balance out the way, everyone wants EVE to be balanced. We even yelled at CCP to toss the Jesus Features in favour of fixing the games balance. But when it comes to EVE, what is balanced?

This is where I think the Fair Chase Principle ties in. It gives both sides a relatively equal chance to win. Either the prey getting away, or the prey going splat. There is always the chance your prey may slip away. You should have seen it, it was this big (o_o)/ !

Currently, there are some mechanics in EVE that do not work with Fair Chase. Most specifically, AFK cloakers. “Hmm, this tea is amazing, I’m just gonna chill here where nothing can scan me down and watch my d-scan. Ooh, shiney. Lets go investigate” There goes the cloaky, warping to the victim.. “Wouldya look at that!” He proceeds to pop a cyno, 15 cloaky bombers jumping through and shredding the poor victim within seconds. They then cloak up and make their way back home. Can this be countered?

In effect, no. AFK cloakers can sit there for hours (probably fapping to something else before checking d-scan). So setting traps is more of a waste of time than anything else. Can they be scanned down? Nope. Thank you cloaky. So, in effect, you have a constant threat which you cannot counter. Lets go check that other syste.. oh, they are there too.. Oh well.

This isn’t the only example. What about those who manipulate game mechanics to perform ganks in high sec? It’s not that tough to gain a few precious seconds to kill your prey.. Firstly, head to a nearby customs office in your rookie ship. Say there are gonna be 8 gankers in your group. Each of you then need to fire at the customs office. In comes 8 CONCORD squads, instantly vapourizing your backside. Cool, now you wait out the timer. Now go fetch your ship. Most likely in the same system.

At this point, we have 8 CONCORD squads sitting at a customs office. We are also in our relatively cheap T1 gank ships. Come here you miner you! “1 bill or die.” demands the leader. Miner refuses/can’t/(insert excuse here). Everyone opens fire. Here is where it happens. Firstly, normally a CONCORD squad would appear soon (depending on the security status of the system) However, this doesn’t happen. Instead, because 8 squads already exist within the system, the game instead warps them over to assist. What does this mean? More time to kill the miner! They get a huge bonus from this manipulation (every second counts and every EVE player should know that).

So, we have an AFK cloaker and chums who manipulate CONCORD. I’m starting to wonder how else is EVE unbalanced? Now, before you start calling me a carebear, I NEVER said don’t kill anyone. By all means, kill other players. THIS IS EVE! However, no chance of escape? When roles are reversed, suddenly its not fair. Even if 75% of ganks are succesful, they still have a 25% chance to escape. Or if the cloaker can only remain cloaked for so long, or some kind of mechanic to counter AFK cloakers.

Now lets get the debate started. Do you think Fair Chase applies in some way? Are there other mechanics which are harsh on the prey? Do you have any ideas that might help but still remain “Harshe EVE style”?

-Novus, The guy waiting for the carebears to start whining

300 Comments

  1. Chris

    To me, those who whine about AFK cloaking are the people who just want to sit in their system with no interruption to their ratting. They complain that there is no way to deal with the cloaker. While that may be true, smart play enables you to completely negate the afk cloaker’s effect on your income.

    While I do not run anoms, I have run many nullsec lvl 4 missions in systems without a single blue in sight. I understand there are gates in some missions, but not all. I have not once been caught and destroyed due to an afk cloaker becoming active. They sure as hell have tried, but never succeeded.

    If you’re alert, they can’t get you. Adapt, don’t cry about something anyone can get around.

    October 10, 2013 at 9:43 pm Reply
    1. Derp

      “I have run many nullsec lvl 4 missions…”

      ^stopped caring about your opinion here.

      October 10, 2013 at 10:39 pm Reply
      1. Chris

        You don’t have to care, doesn’t make my opinions invalid.

        October 10, 2013 at 10:55 pm Reply
        1. uh...

          actually, for reasons of my reply to Aonus above, it does in fact make your opinions invalid.

          Level 4 missions in nullsec are irrelevant to this debate, because D-scanning for probes is an option there. If you get caught in a mission, it’s your own fault.

          No similar option exists for anomaly runners. For them it is a roll of the dice.

          October 19, 2013 at 7:14 pm Reply
      2. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

        why? cuz ur stuck at level 1s? ;)

        October 11, 2013 at 11:14 am Reply
        1. uh...

          He stopped caring because missions need to be scanned down. AFK cloakers don’t matter to mission runners, because they can D-scan for probes. Thus is makes perfect sense that a mission runner would not understand this issue at all. A mission runner would have no reason to complain, because a viable system for avoiding the danger exists.

          AFK cloakers matter to anomaly runners (in player 0.0) because they don’t need to be scanned down. They’re warpable by default. The cloakie can just warp from one to another to another, checking them for targets without any risk to himself.

          As (from your other posts) I think he’s on your side in this issue, you might want to rage a little less and read a little more before cumming on your own face like a derp.

          October 19, 2013 at 7:11 pm Reply
    2. Murdoch

      At least you will be alerted by combat probes during your mission, but in anoms, you get nothing but 2 pointed and a bunch of blackops showing up.

      October 10, 2013 at 11:48 pm Reply
      1. Chris

        If they’re bad you see them. If they know what they’re doing you have maybe a 2 second window to see the probes before they get your position and the probes leave.

        It may not be a perfect comparison, but its pretty damn close.

        October 11, 2013 at 12:07 am Reply
        1. d

          Do you actually play this game? Sigs have to be probed, anoms do not.

          October 11, 2013 at 12:13 am Reply
          1. Chris

            Do you even read? Sigs were never mentioned.

            October 11, 2013 at 12:21 am
  2. baily

    haven’t read comments, so maybe someone already chimed in with this one…make it so that covert cloaks have to be reactivated from time to time. nothing is more annoying than a cloaker that logs in before he goes to work in the morning

    October 10, 2013 at 9:57 pm Reply
    1. Thatguy

      And what if it happens in the middle of lining up a bombing run? Stupid idea.

      October 11, 2013 at 8:49 am Reply
      1. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

        just something new to deal with. its EVE, its all screwed up. so deal with it maybe?

        October 11, 2013 at 11:08 am Reply
  3. Alison King
    October 10, 2013 at 10:58 pm Reply
    1. Alison King

      run forest run

      October 10, 2013 at 10:58 pm Reply
  4. Random Majere

    Remove local. Make cloacks work in WHs only. Problem solved.

    October 10, 2013 at 11:53 pm Reply
    1. Thatguy

      Stupid idea.

      October 11, 2013 at 8:48 am Reply
  5. Upgrades

    Maybe there should be upgrades in 0.0 to counter cloaks. make it cost isk so every system can’t have one. also make sure region gates cannot use this upgrade? as far as the concord thing goes could they not have concord just warp out (dematerialize) soon after they pop the criminal that would fix the needing to warp out thing and reduce the time. just a thought!

    October 11, 2013 at 12:18 am Reply
    1. daniL

      maybe we could just leave you alone to do your RMT activities right ?

      October 11, 2013 at 6:59 am Reply
      1. whysomanyderps

        save cloakie afkers! They’re clearly on a mission to stop all that RMT done by pet alliances between 200 and 500 members with minimal or nonexistant supercapital fleets!

        October 19, 2013 at 7:05 pm Reply
  6. Dennis the Dreamer

    What about “learn to align”, learn to d-scan, learn to afk alt on gates to watch potential gankers, if you can’t do that ‘uninstall’ kk! btw, for afk cloakers the answer to that is: CCP should develop a large E-Bomb when release the entire system will shakes, and big enough to disable the electronics of cloakers for 120secs. Enough time to scan the ships. And only capital can carry this bomb. the pvp potentials are inevitable.

    October 11, 2013 at 1:21 am Reply
    1. Snorkle25

      No, cause groups with large numbers of caps (soo at fleets?) could perma-disable cloaking around the clock. Way OP. And sometimes you really don’t want 60 seconds of inability to cloak, like when your slow boating through a bubble camp. Think about say viator pilots.

      October 11, 2013 at 4:15 am Reply
      1. slartybartfast

        they could technically fix this by making it a triage-type module. You can disable cloaking, but your capacitor is knocked to zero and your ship is unable to move or receive reps for 5 minutes. That way it becomes a gamble. If the guy is afk, you kill him. If he’s not afk, he sees he’s been knocked from cloak, drops combat probes, scans down your capital ship and gets a free kill.

        October 19, 2013 at 7:03 pm Reply
    2. No to AFK Cloakers

      The way to counter the AFK cloaker is to have a pos modual that will pulse the system decloaking any cloakers, useage time on this modual is say once per hour and only 1 pos in a system may have one fitted and the system say has to be strat 3/4/5 w/e

      now this is able to counter the afk cloaker threat, and if you arnt afk then you can just recloak job done.

      another solution to the madness which is afk cloakers is a dead man switch where the cloaker has to hit a button every x mins 30/60/90 to stay cloaked, or cloaking takes a fuel cost to cloak and stay cloaked, but these two would have their own problems and personally i dont faveor them over the first idea.

      October 11, 2013 at 4:42 am Reply
      1. daniL

        sure :) re-clocking every 60 minutes … well you have to undock 1-st to see it

        October 11, 2013 at 6:58 am Reply
      2. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

        cloaking locked out for 5 minutes. there, fixed it for u.

        October 11, 2013 at 11:05 am Reply
        1. slartybartfast

          too much. If they’re not afk, they should be able to re-cloak. The problem is AFK cloaking, -not- cloaking in general.

          October 19, 2013 at 7:01 pm Reply
          1. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

            ok, this i agree with

            October 21, 2013 at 10:26 pm
    3. Thatguy

      Yes. Make Capitals even more important.

      Or provide the E-bomb that slowly disrupts cloak to an entirely new ship class of its own. Maybe another t2 destroyer?

      October 11, 2013 at 8:47 am Reply
  7. meow

    carebear

    October 11, 2013 at 1:40 am Reply
  8. rawr

    awwww cute little carebears

    October 11, 2013 at 1:52 am Reply
    1. gawd

      omg u giant mighty dragon. rainbow dragon ofc. and don’t forget your handbag as weapon.

      October 11, 2013 at 11:58 am Reply
    2. derf?

      nullbears get angry when ratting is cut off because ratting finances pewpew.

      Cutting off their source of income with AFK cloaking is a tactic employed because in a stand-up knock-down fight, you know you’d lose.

      I feel I’m somehow confused. The carebear is who?

      October 19, 2013 at 6:59 pm Reply
  9. Snorkle25

    I suggest you try hunting targets in a covert ship before you jump to the conclusion that it’s uncountered or even guaranteed success. I’ve both hot dropped and been hot dropped. Its never a guarenteed victory for any one side simply because of ‘cloak’.

    In addition, the ‘afk’ portion was adapted due to an unforseen limitation of the cloaking device; local. Since I cannot hunt you without you realizing your being hunted, I turn it into a game of patience. I make you think I’m not actually ‘there’ so that you become vulnerable and I can actually kill something.

    October 11, 2013 at 1:58 am Reply
    1. Ashesofempires

      If we are going to extend the analogy presented in the article, it’s essentially the same as setting up a blind and waiting for your intended prey to wander within your field of fire. blinds are set up to maximize the chances of encountering said prey, while minimizing the opportunities that your prey has to see, smell, or hear you.

      Hunting in EVE is nothing like the real world. For one, you are hunting a human, and that means that you are also potentially the prey. For all of the patience that you sit there in your cloaky recon waiting for someone to make a mistake and become vulnerable, they could be working to bait you into hot-dropping them so that they can counter drop you.

      EVE is a game of cat and mouse, sometimes you’re the cat, sometimes you’re the mouse. Sometimes you think you’re hunting the mouse, but when you catch it by the tail it’s really a pitbull.

      October 11, 2013 at 6:08 am Reply
  10. John Albano

    I think you might be misapplying Fair Chase. “The shooting of captured/sedated wildlife is a huge no no” but your prey in EVE is not already captured or sedated prior to your attack. Well, possibly sedated, but not by *your* doing. Webbing and neuting are done as part of the attack. Trapping prey is just as viable a way to catch/kill it as shooting it is. “Along with the use of mechanized forms of transport” is simply another way to say not to have an unfair advantage in the chase, and that’s because – in the vast majority of cases – most non-human prey does not know how to operate or even own a vehicle. If deer drove ATVs, there would be nothing wrong with chasing them down in your Jeep.

    In EVE, every player has access to the same skills, ships and modules. Each player chooses what they will use and how they will use it. More importantly, there are personal awareness and social connections. There are tools to watch one’s surroundings and there are our friends, corpmates and other acquaintances who can ping us to say “Hey, there’s been trouble over there today. If you’re going to stick around, watch your back.”

    To address cloaking directly, as a player, I find it one of those things that keeps me on my toes when I’m lo-sec mission running in a faction battleship. I like knowing it’s out there. I like knowing that, no matter how on guard I am, there is that chance that in a split second I can end up in a frantic scramble where the seemingly glacial slide of the warping bar is at war with the staggering drop of my armor gauge, and the victor of the two determines the rest of the night’s activities.

    The important thing, though, is that in my seven or so years of playing EVE, I don’t think I’ve ever felt I was in an inescapable position. There was always a warning or an out somewhere, either before or during the attack. I have the same options as my enemy, including the option to have a cloaked ally, as well. IMO, Fair Chase seems to exist in EVE.

    October 11, 2013 at 2:28 am Reply
  11. Kama Kairade

    Flogging an eight year old dead horse. It’s really not a debate anymore. As has been demonstrated, afk cloakers cannot hurt you. When they become active, they’re an easy kill to almost any combat ready ship, and easy to evade if the target is the slightest bit prepared. The only concession I would make to decloaking them would be AOE devices like (smart)bombs.

    October 11, 2013 at 6:28 am Reply
    1. Thatguy

      Some kind of EMP hislot item that temporarily disables cloak as it slowly expands outwards?

      October 11, 2013 at 8:45 am Reply
      1. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

        ANTI-CLOAK BOMB!

        October 11, 2013 at 11:03 am Reply
    2. DeadlyDean

      Err, how are they an easy kill? I can happily put a cloak on anything. Are you confusing “cloak” with “covops cloak”.

      October 11, 2013 at 2:49 pm Reply
    3. bloody noobs

      It’s not the ship itself that is the danger, it’s the cyno it’s wearing that is the… yaknow what, nevermind. This is useless. You don’t actually believe that rot, you’re just afraid your broken toy will get nerfed and you’ll actually have to play to win.

      I’m speaking as a member of a corporation that almost exclusively runs black ops fleets. I love black ops, I just think that going AFK in a bomber and calling it “PVP” is like going AFK in a mining barge and calling it “industry.”

      That’s all.

      October 15, 2013 at 5:22 pm Reply
  12. Anon

    AFK cloakers are, by definition, not a threat in the slightest. They aren’t at the keyboard. They become a threat when they are active.

    October 11, 2013 at 7:16 am Reply
    1. I just do not know

      How do you know when they become active, is there something in game to tell you, actually there is, when they changed corps is a good way of working it out, pluis when they got kills, of course one needs to check if the character was sold or not. But that is an approximation. I like many have operated with cloaky campers in system and used this to work out when I could operate. One of them used a bot to log off exactly 10 minutes before DT, was funny. The person was really lame, left when we still ratted when he was in system.
      Anyway is that enough?
      And to be blunt Eve is basically getting the drop on people, thats it, nothing more…

      October 11, 2013 at 7:48 am Reply
    2. BS

      Omg, are you American? I mean I totally opose this article, as it suggests another way of making EvE safe place for the retarded and unskilled. But argument “hes afk so hes not threat ” is on the level of 10yo, or American, or a retard, pick one

      October 11, 2013 at 10:06 am Reply
      1. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

        it doesnt make eve safe, it makes eve diverse. get it right..

        October 11, 2013 at 11:02 am Reply
  13. Novus Necrontyr

    Just a quick Thank You to everyone who commented on my article.

    My article wasn’t really written to do anything else other than start the debate which has unfolded over the past day..

    Yes, some would say the article is rubbish. I’m not taking it personal and can agree, not my kind of work, but it got the job done. I’m going to expect more insults and derogatory words from many more because of everything I say. It’s the nature of the internet.

    Regardless of that, I have really enjoyed the debate, hearing both sides of the story (Yes, I do see see the points made by those who AFK cloak).

    Fly safe and continue thinking for yourselves!

    October 11, 2013 at 9:05 am Reply
  14. Morons

    If you are so stupid that you have backed yourself in to a corner and the only way you can make isk is by ratting/minning in one small area so that a hand full of cloaky campers can shut you down.

    You are fucking dumb and deserve what you get……

    October 11, 2013 at 9:08 am Reply
    1. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

      ur an idiot and u should be ashamed.

      October 11, 2013 at 10:31 am Reply
      1. BS

        I never afk cloaked in my life and I support him fully. Being a moron should be punished. Thats how people learn you know. Not by lowering standards.

        October 11, 2013 at 10:39 am Reply
        1. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

          i afk cloak, and suigank and i support him fully. and ur pointing out people being morons. lets use that, so that would mean that a mining barge fitted for effeciency is moronic because this is eve and that there should be mechanics that allow a 3mill destroyer to go run rampant in highsec killing every effeciency fitted hulk/retriever solo getting a minimal slap on the wrist with a 10ths of a sec hit per kill? because theres no method to finding or locking down an afk cloaker, its obviously the player’s fault for being fail and moronic. love the logic… ill get the popcorn

          October 11, 2013 at 10:56 am Reply
          1. :/

            “fitted for efficiency”

            Not very efficient if your stupid ass is getting blown up all the time.
            lol you are one dumb fuckwit.

            October 11, 2013 at 2:02 pm
          2. Playos

            The issue is that it creates paranoia without content. SB gang active for a couple hours a day is killing activity in multiple system 23/7 for extended periods of time.

            Since you can’t force a fight or eliminate/mitigate the threat (don’t give a shit how awesome your tank is, 20 or 30 bombers will ruin your day quickly) we just get an empty system. Best case, those players go somewhere else and we get more empty useless null… worst case, they stop logging in all together. How, exactly, is either option actually a good result?

            October 11, 2013 at 9:40 pm
          3. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

            sounds like ur butthurt or maybe u didnt read the first sentence. add more retard to your comeback. cry more nub

            October 11, 2013 at 10:40 pm
  15. Aonus_the_blaster_maniac

    There are some unbalanced issues in the game and im sure CCP will… wait, nm its CCP.. itll probably get fixed 2 years from now and youll most likely get a dev rant about how X is an exploit. if your caught using it ull get banned.. yada yada yada and still have to wait 2 years till it gets fixed.

    should fair chase apply? yes.
    Other broken mechanics? plenty. broken force projection(cyno) amongst other things.
    ideas? yes, fix broken mechanics. were human we’ll always find ways to be a douchebag to everyone else in eve.

    October 11, 2013 at 10:42 am Reply
    1. CCP Ovarian

      Cyno timer needed!
      Insert whining, rage, supid pretended elitism or coolaid below:



      I go grab some popcorn. Brb.

      October 11, 2013 at 12:05 pm Reply
  16. Lench

    Nuke local and change d-scan. No more scary afk cloakers. Nullsec shouldn’t be safe ffs.

    October 11, 2013 at 12:48 pm Reply
    1. CCP Ovarian

      Ofc it should not be safe. Not for the ratters. Neither for the cloakers.

      October 11, 2013 at 1:00 pm Reply
      1. Lench

        Probes that can detect cloaked ships, but have longer scanning times…. Other than that, I think people should have no idea that a cloaked ship is in the system. Local channel is just stupid…

        October 11, 2013 at 1:32 pm Reply
        1. Playos

          Then go to w-space… no one is making you play in k-space.

          October 11, 2013 at 9:33 pm Reply
    2. okano

      I fully agree.

      October 11, 2013 at 2:13 pm Reply
    3. Carlos

      yeah but then you can still cloak and not be seen in local, How stupid is that?
      you are trying to argue something but completelly ignoring the rest. Decisions have to be balanced. You dont just say this and ignore the rest. Then cloaking will become 100 times more powerfull

      October 11, 2013 at 6:32 pm Reply
    4. slartybartfastiq

      err, though this actually would only work if you also fixed cynos.

      October 24, 2013 at 3:15 pm Reply
  17. kronos

    cloaking devices should use strontium clathrates as fuel. Why? Well … think :P

    October 11, 2013 at 1:48 pm Reply
    1. StMick

      Wierdly I like this idea. More chance of catching blockade runners, no sitting cloaked for hours and hours afk.

      October 11, 2013 at 2:46 pm Reply
  18. okano

    cloaking devices should be effect by cap. That way only way to stay cloaked 24/7 is cap recharge fit it. – Making the ship itself no good for combat. Just a thought. Or mines that burst out 100km decloak anything within range. Still, I beleive lots of tools to combat cloakers would be nice.

    October 11, 2013 at 2:12 pm Reply
  19. stone

    You can play their game. Bait them out. Go bait proc. Or bait ratting naga with scram. Ratting carrier with cyno fitted. Sabre and fleet on exit gate and jump a noctis thru. Tried and true afk cloaker killers. Watchlist known blops droppers. Watch Intel channels. Be on comms. And much more.
    You don’t need CCP to babysit you.
    I would consider the mobile yurt in Rubicon to be a blops gangs wet dream. Cyno jammer except cov cynos. Plus SOE cruiser. I think CCP is favoring blops ATM. Finally.
    SOE cruiser cloaky with nuets and drones covcyno can’t hardly wait.

    October 11, 2013 at 6:26 pm Reply
    1. asdf

      Yeah, because you can get a full sized fleet formed up to sit on their ass for hours on end waiting for Joe AFK to come back from work. And while you’re busy ship spinning, meanwhile, Joe AFK is making his paycheck. Then Joe AFK spends said paycheck on copious amounts of hookers and blow while you’re busy being so bored that you start wishing you were bashing structures.

      If some dude wants to camp a jewing system in a cloaky for days or weeks, yeah, sure, but it should require him to actually be active in order to ensure his safety. Right now AFK cloaking is even more AFK-friendly than mining is, and mining is way too AFK-friendly in itself as it is.

      October 11, 2013 at 7:36 pm Reply
      1. stone

        You can’t say the JOE afk cloaker is actually afk tho. He could be warping around making safes or tactical so he doesn’t get sucked in a bubble and be decloaked, he could be watching activity, ship types, time of day, he could be that random vagabond puttering around here and there seeing if he can get someone to undock. He could be out making deep safes for the bob to hide in so it regen cap or repair the bait after a gank to send the fleet farther in or back to rerest.
        Blops operate in small fragile ships with high gank. Anyone dies it can be 50 jumps or better one way in a pod home or express. And then 50 jumps back to rejoin the fleet. I’ve traveled one side of the map to the other just to reship. There aren’t many market stations to can dock up at in deep null. And I’ve been pipe bombed traveling to rejoin the fleet. There are lots of risks to blops gangs. Very little isk payout. So when I blow up your vindi or carrier I say have a nice day.

        October 11, 2013 at 8:28 pm Reply
        1. Playos

          He could be warping around and looking for targets… and if he is, awesome, continue on. Those are times he can be baited, and can provide entertainment.

          If he wants to get kills, shut down a system, or just gather intel… he should have to be at keyboard and paying attention. People who aren’t playing shouldn’t be a possible threat with absolutely no risk of loss.

          TO REPEAT: Don’t break cloaky camping, but at least require some interaction and skill. It’s more fun for everyone involved.

          October 11, 2013 at 9:31 pm Reply
          1. rkos

            Exactly, its is fun the option to catch someone is available

            October 12, 2013 at 7:36 am
        2. Canadian Jesus

          Or… he could be like me and others I know that cloaky camps enemy ratting systems while I am at work to disrupt the line members isk flow.

          October 12, 2013 at 6:04 am Reply
  20. Carlos

    Nothing should be safe. Neither should be cloakers who can cloak for 23 hours and you cant catch them. I think most people would agree that cloaking is broken.

    All of us know that high sec is not safe by far. So how can be safe to cloak for 23 hours a day without been caught, its beyond me. I do hope this is fixed some day. This has nothing to do with someone been a carebear or not. People tend to use that as a counter sometimes.

    October 11, 2013 at 6:28 pm Reply
    1. stone

      Um most of you have never been in a blops gang or sat afk for hours going omg I want to kill that so bad. And have no one active or have too few to make an tempt or the Bob pilot jumps instead of bridge. Or the bait get blown up before bridge can go up. HOURS of wasted game time for that one sweet kill were everything thing pays off only to get shit on by loot fairy.
      Mean while only a small portion of targets actually get killed. Far more ratters than blops gangs. Time/isk reward is much higher ratting vs being the blops gang.
      Part of why we drop you is for the tears alone. The idk sucks split 20-30 ways to the whole gang.

      October 11, 2013 at 6:48 pm Reply
      1. Carlos

        I have nothing against cloakers. But i do however belive they should be able to be caught dont matter how many hours or minutes they are cloaked.

        This business of cloaking without any possible detection is wrong.
        Have you ever wondered how much time people would dedicate to catch a cloaker if there was a chance to detect and catch a cloaker?
        Everything has to have a counter. This very clearly has not.
        Whats wrong with providing a counter and the hunter become the hunted?

        I understand nothing can be balanced 100% but this is completelly one sided.
        This is the same as in the past were suppers had no counters and were super OP before. At least with the nerfs to supers and buff to dreads, the battle evens out more. Granted its not completelly balanced but its not completelly one sided.

        October 11, 2013 at 8:03 pm Reply
        1. stone

          They can be countered. That’s my point. I’ve caught them. They do have to warp and they can be decloaked. Sitting unmoving in a belt or on a warp in beacon or acceleration gate is where you get caught so don’t be there. You can drop a jetcan at the warp ins 0-100 or a bubble and can. That will decloak them for sure. You have the tools to catch them already.

          Off grid boosters can be caught now because they are actually actively doing a boosting function in system by probing them out. Afk cloakers could be doing anything or be afk. If they are afk well nothing is truly wrong with that. If they are active then they can be caught. If an off grid booster is inactive he’s in a pos or docked if he can.

          Afk cloakys make tactical warpin and so should your ratting ship. Anoms and deds you don’t sit on warp in, you move away from it. If you see some decloak you spam warp. Don’t return to the site. They book marked a wreck or or logged off.

          October 11, 2013 at 8:57 pm Reply
          1. Carlos

            i love to see you trying to decloak me. Good luck with that! you may have caught some idiot that warps at 100 rofl. But if you really know how to fly a cloaky, you and I know that its really hard to catch. I flown a cloaky for ages and i know all the ins and out of flying cloaked.

            And thats without mentioning flying without a nullifier. If you got a nullifier and know what you are doing then the chances are even lower of getting caught.

            You talk about ded’s/anom etc. I dont run them. You can have the ship allined bytherway but if you fit an arazu with 4 sensor boosters with scripts, you catch anyone including an interceptor easy. But if you got the magic cloak, you can forget about it, unless the pilot is an idiot/fell asleep/did a plain stupid thing. If you are honest with yourself, you would know that what i just said there is very true.

            October 11, 2013 at 9:18 pm
          2. stone

            So you can instalock a interceptor with an arazu. So what you won’t be holding him long or even light cyno for it. Besides once the ceptor has lock on you you can’t cloak. So its not that magic. You warp an arazu into a dirty bubble maned by a ceptor you are screwed. Dic cloaked by the bait screwed. Light the cyno. In warps all their friends.
            Seen bobs get caught and killed on a failed drop.
            It takes like what feels like 20minutes to solo a barge in an arazu.
            If your honest with yourself, you’ll know what I just said is very true.

            October 12, 2013 at 3:46 pm
          3. Carlos

            you are an idiot if you warp to a bubble in the first place in an arazu and for that you deserve to die! No excuse! aruzu is only meant to point and cyno. Done, here comes the cavalry. If you are doing something else, then you are doing it wrong! For that you dont need a permanent cloak that holds cloak for 23 hours. You should be forced to micro manage your ship or die just like everything else in eve! Its null sec, so its meant to be super dangerous and not a place where you can safelly stretch your legs for 23 hours straight without geting caught.

            October 12, 2013 at 4:57 pm
    2. stone

      Um most of you have never been in a blops gang or sat afk for hours going omg I want to kill that so bad. And have no one active or have too few to make an tempt or the Bob pilot jumps instead of bridge. Or the bait get blown up before bridge can go up. HOURS of wasted game time for that one sweet kill were everything thing pays off only to get shit on by loot fairy.
      Mean while only a small portion of targets actually get killed. Far more ratters than blops gangs. Time/isk reward is much higher ratting vs being the blops gang.
      Part of why we drop you is for the tears alone. The idk sucks split 20-30 ways to the whole gang.

      October 11, 2013 at 6:48 pm Reply
  21. Viktor Fel

    I was drawn to EVE just after launch because it was basically no holds barred and aggressive. Gate guns, CONCORDOKKEN!!!, all of that to me is just kind of fluff that is unwarranted except for in the highest of high-sec (0.7+). CCP should not be daycare for the stupid and undedicated. Now its fair enough to assume that at times the claoker is AFK, but often enough he/she isn’t, but usually an alt for a senior FC or a main scout alt.

    Nothing is sacred, nothing is safe. One only has the illusion of being relatively safe.

    October 11, 2013 at 7:38 pm Reply
    1. asdf

      Unless you are cloaked, then you are so safe that you can stay deep in hostile space 23/7 while completely AFK.

      October 11, 2013 at 7:49 pm Reply
    2. asdf

      Unless you are cloaked, then you are so safe that you can stay deep in hostile space 23/7 while completely AFK.

      October 11, 2013 at 7:49 pm Reply
  22. Carlos

    Null is suppose to be a hostile environment. If its suppose to be that hostile then how can someone remain cloaked 23 hours a day without been caught?

    October 11, 2013 at 8:08 pm Reply
    1. Snorkle25

      What about people who stay docked for hours on end? Should the station auto-undock you every (for example) hour just to make sure your not afk? What about POS’s? Should they auto-kick every so often just to make sure your not AFK?

      October 12, 2013 at 12:00 am Reply
      1. Carlos

        rofl. thats all i got to say about that comment

        October 12, 2013 at 12:13 am Reply
      2. erroch

        Then take down their POS or take the station.
        You have an active response to this in Null.

        October 12, 2013 at 6:05 pm Reply
  23. Patch

    De-cloaking should be a specialty. Like tackling caps. There should be ships and modules for de-cloaking ships. It should be a process. There should be a couple of steps and each module should have a pretty long cycle time. So that even if you had high skills it would still take time (I’ll just throw 30 minutes out there) to de-cloak the ship. Then you would still need to scan it down, but it would at least be possible. The good thing about this is that is sets up some good cat and mouse action around cloaking. A cloaked ship should be like a submarine, invisible to regular ships but vulnerable to ships dedicated to finding it.

    October 11, 2013 at 8:12 pm Reply
    1. erroch

      I like this idea. Instead of adding new ships and modules you could do this with the ships already centered around finding other ships. Make a specialty set of probes that do nothing but give warp ins on cloaked ships. No decloaking, just a warp in.
      Give them a shorter range then current combat probes (maybe 14 AU aka DScan range?) and work against the sig radius of the ships with some bonus for the type of cloak so it’s easier to uncloak a ship with a basic cloak then a stealth bomber or a recon ship.
      Maybe even add an ability of ECM bursts to have a chance to disrupt cloaks once you’re on grid.
      Just a few thoughts that popped in my head while reading this.

      October 12, 2013 at 6:14 pm Reply
  24. PEwPEw

    Remember the old Eve tutorail… it used to say “Lock on target, immobilize, incapacitate, annihilate’, the 3 basic rules of PVP :)

    October 12, 2013 at 2:19 am Reply
  25. oink

    Sounds like someone got assreamed, man up and try out a wormhole, then you will see how your assream was only a pinhole

    October 12, 2013 at 11:22 am Reply
    1. slartybartfastiq

      (wormholes don’t have cynos. your ass-reamings are much easier to deal with and much more predictable. D-scan will tell you if anything dangerous is in the process of adding to the fight, where in high-sec anything can add to the fight from anywhere, and you have no way to predict what you’re up against.)

      October 15, 2013 at 12:30 am Reply
  26. Nofearion

    +1 I have an ongoing forum thread on this topic with some good discussion and ideas, Trolls yes but weed those out and it is going good, again +1

    October 12, 2013 at 2:16 pm Reply
  27. Michael Meio

    Maybe if the EVE community makes use of the “Sandbox” argument and sends a letter to CCP asking if the AFK cloaking issue is EVER to be revised, we could have an answer or quit wasting time.
    We all know about it, we know it has to be fixed, we have some good solutions.
    We just need to put it on the right table once for all.

    October 12, 2013 at 5:11 pm Reply
    1. Michael Meio

      A letter signed by a cpl thousand customers

      October 12, 2013 at 5:12 pm Reply
      1. Laserzpewpew

        The counter to afk cloak is to lay a trap. Put out some bait and wait for something to bite.

        October 12, 2013 at 5:49 pm Reply
        1. slartybartfastiq

          wait 24 hours for something to bite, then hope what bites doesn’t have air superiority (it will). If you just get the cloaky itself, after your massive operation, he’ll be back in 20 minutes in a new ship.

          The basic principle violation here is simple. Players are having to come up with tactics to deal with players who -may or may not actually be there-. It’s the same problem as botting – you’re making a contribution to an effort without actually playing the game.

          If someone is hunting people in a cloaked ship, they should be present and accounted for. They should be -around- to *see* the bait, or it isn’t fair to the people laying the trap.

          October 15, 2013 at 12:28 am Reply
          1. Laserzpewpew

            You have a massive failure complex. You automatically assume that you will have fewer numbers. You automatically assume that you will at best get the tackle and not the unprepared fleet assuming they are about to gal a hapless target.you are the problem. Not cloaking.

            October 19, 2013 at 2:12 am
          2. slartybartfast

            wait 24 hours for something to bite, then hope what bites doesn’t have air superiority. If you just get the cloaky itself, after your massive operation, he’ll be back in 20 minutes in a new ship.

            The basic principle violation here is simple. Players are having to come up with tactics to deal with players who -may or may not actually be there-. It’s the same problem as botting – you’re making a contribution to an effort without actually playing the game.

            If someone is hunting people in a cloaked ship, they should be present and accounted for. They should be -around- to *see* the bait, or it isn’t fair to the people laying the trap.

            ^I fixed it for you, in hopes you’d deal with the actual points made, rather than hugging the parenthetical like the pathetic dipshit you are.

            October 19, 2013 at 6:56 pm
          3. Laserzpewpew

            In turn, you should have waited for him to light his cyno and jump his gang through. Then you spring your trap. Your decision making is poor. Again, you are the problem.

            This game is built on making good and proper decisions. If you smash his gang, he will likely move his alts to a place less likely to put up a fight as he wants funny ganks and killmails written in stupidity. You are assuming that you receive the worst of the possible outcomes when your decisions are causing the outcome, not the game. Again, you are the problem.

            In addition, a game is based on player actions and choice. Not the game making and limiting decisions of the player. If he wants to sit afk in a spot for however long, that is his decision. And his inaction turns to having you make a decision. You are asking to have player interaction removed so you can play single player eve. Again, you are the problem.

            You are the source of your own problems.

            October 19, 2013 at 8:31 pm
          4. slartybartfastiq

            *grunt* I’ll try this one more time, with smaller words.

            “If someone is hunting people in a cloaked ship, they should be present
            and accounted for. They should be -around- to *see* the bait, or it
            isn’t fair to the people laying the trap.”

            I’m not saying the campers are a problem. I’m saying the fact that they can do this while AFK is a problem. The amount of effort required to “spring a trap” on a camper who is at his keyboard? proportional and interesting. The risk is that they have air superiority, but that’s fair and fine.

            The amount of effort required to “spring a trap” on a camper who turns out to be AFK? Same effort, but everyone goes home blueballed and annoyed. Anti-fun.

            This is why you rarely see counter-ganks unless people have worked out the hours at which AFK campers are actually most likely to be active.

            Regardless, counter-ganking isn’t the appropriate response. The appropriate response to campers is to figure out who sent them, and then go camp a target that will inconvenience -them-. If it’s goons, for example, you can camp their renters, as their policies (wisely) actually allow this to hard-shut-off renter income during the duration of the camp.

            Camping, again, is not the problem. AFK camping is. Conflating the two is itself problematic.

            October 21, 2013 at 6:22 am
          5. Laserzpewpew

            So that dude managed to get all the way into your system and you failed to stop him or get proper intel. Which, in turn all your duders will sit and go afk in their stations while he waits for someone to do something. So you want to be able to force player’s moves and you want ccp to do it for you? Good, every several minutes players should be forced to undock =)

            October 21, 2013 at 10:20 pm
          6. slartybartfastiq

            ah. I see.

            You’ve never actually lived in null or fought a war of any significance.

            Carry on, then.

            October 24, 2013 at 3:11 pm
          7. Laserzpewpew

            You have just earned required reading. Also, lookup “revisiting bounty hunting” if you feel that I don’t have enough cred being one of the game’s most well-known hunters and dscanners. Where does that leave you? Bottom of the food chain.
            http://themittani.com/features/lifestyles-blaptastic-laserzpewpew

            October 24, 2013 at 10:02 pm
  28. Laserzpewpew

    In a hunt, hunting must be done before a shot is fired. When a shot is fired, the prey already had its chance to escape. It did not see the warning signs, pay heed to them or react appropriately. Wondering why someone doesn’t have a chance to escape when shots are being fired is fools logic.

    October 12, 2013 at 5:47 pm Reply
  29. Pregnant Wombat

    2 Super easy counters to cloaking. 1) if you really want to get the guy, lay a trap. 2) leave the sister and do your business somewhere else.

    Biggest problem that makes AFK camping work isnt the AFK camping, but whiney reactions to it… and the fact that people are too damn lazy to have a back up plan.

    October 13, 2013 at 6:39 am Reply
    1. slartybartfastiq

      resources and effort required to camp a system while AFK:
      -low skilled alt on the same account as your main (or different account, if you feel like doing it 24/7)
      -a 9-5 job during which to leave the alt online and AFK (like an AFK miner in high-sec, and deserving of the same level of respect)

      resources and effort required to (possibly have a hope of) dealing with a gank:
      -a high skills pilot flying something tasty (bait)
      -several dreads, possibly some supers, in case what the cloaky is setting up for involves capitals. These pilots must be sitting in their ships for several hours while you run the op, and no one can be a spy or have a friend in the other alliance( <- RARE in most relevant situations).
      -a full day to dedicate to it, or several days in which to track when the cloakie is actually making cynos. If you can identify what time period he operates non-afk in, you can concentrate the hours of the operation to around that time period.
      -during this time, all other nearby ratting must cease, except for bait ships. This requires more structural organization than you might think.

      [Leaving the system is often impossible, as generally a campaign of AFK cloaking covers every system an alliance owns or has access to. As AFK cloakers are alts, this is -really really easy to do-. Even large alliances can be camped to shit with 30 or so alts, which can be fielded by a small corporation on holiday.]

      ^If anyone thinks this is a proportional effort/counter-effort ratio, that person is an irredeemable idiot. But no one actually does. Including you.

      October 15, 2013 at 12:20 am Reply
  30. slartybartfastiq

    To the people making the point that wormhole dwellers don’t even have local:

    Yes, but you also don’t have cynos. In the absence of cynos, the presence of a cloakie-whatever becomes much less of an issue. It has actually been suggested (and not without merit) that the problem isn’t that cloaky-afk is broken, but rather that Titan bridges are broken.

    I’m not sure where I stand on that. Titan bridges are useful, often fun, promote “holy sh*t” moments, help escalate fights (moar Asakai plz) and allow coalitions to form meaningful power blocs through power projection (good or bad, depending on whose side you’re on). They’re also the only remaining real functionality of the oft-nerfed and now stupidly-underpowered Titan class ship (Titans overpowered becuz our 1000-man blob of high-sig drakes could be tracked by their guns while standing perfectly still! nerf plz!).

    But if I could trade local in return for not having to worry about cyno pilots, I think I’d probably do it. There are many who wouldn’t, but I’ve lived in wormholes before, I bloody well know how to work D-scanning into my routine.

    October 15, 2013 at 12:10 am Reply
  31. Deifirtep

    There are two approaches that can be taken here. Neither will break the cloaking device as it currently stands:
    1 – Create a new TII ship capable of approximating the location of a cloaked ship via combat probes (those new destroyers are begging for TII version). You land near it, but not on top of it. This allows fair chase in both situations: the cloaker can remain cloaked so long as they are actively managing their ship – warping from safe to safe to avoid being de-cloaked by a destroyer hunting them while those in the system can get rid of the AFK cloaker by their absence from the game.

    2 – create a longer delay between de-cloaking and activation of the cyno but immediate immobility of the cyno lighter. If you are hot dropping bombers on miners, then the delay will give fair chase to the miners Seconds count. The AFK cloaker in this case has a choice: fit for tank to survive any attacks while the cyno stabilizes after de-cloaking or fit without a cyno for maximum solo gank capacity.

    October 15, 2013 at 12:43 pm Reply
  32. Dragon Outlaw

    I like your attitude kid. A badass like you will go far in the real world.

    October 10, 2013 at 5:22 pm Reply
  33. Ban

    Again, DISPROPORTIONATE RISK/REWARD in all those cases. Im not going to provide you with a longer response because you dont really deserve one, shithead.

    October 10, 2013 at 6:01 pm Reply
  34. Ming Tso

    I mean goddamn, it’s better than calling fucking Congress and asking them to pass bills outlawing ghosts and boogeymen.

    October 10, 2013 at 5:38 pm Reply
  35. stone

    Cloaky t3 costs costs 800mil-2bil. Mining barge 200mil at most. There is far greater isk loss there than a barge. Cloaky T3 has faction mods or dead space mods. The risk of loss is greater for the T3. So yeah cry about your barge losses some more. Once a T3 is caught and no backup around its dead just as fast as a barge. And then podded on the way out.
    Cloaky T3s do die. We lost a combat scaning one to the prey having back up on stand by.

    October 12, 2013 at 2:24 pm Reply

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