In my years as an Eve player I’ve enjoyed keeping up with Black Legion. Since Eve is such an “old game” no matter how many years I put between now and my start, I still consider myself “newer.” Rarely if ever is there a benefit to misinform others about your knowledge so I can say that I do not have all the details about Black Legion. The first I ever remember hearing of them was that they were a sov-less group that for some reason flew those ugly Muninn ships in fleets. I played on and off until about the time of the Tribute War where Black Legion, Northern CoalitionDOT and Nulli Secunda put up fierce resistance against the Goon lead CFC Invasion over “disagreements” concerning the tech cartel. More importantly I noticed a division among a couple of players I knew that had characters in both Pandemic Legion and Black Legion. The mesege was pretty clear, pick a side and pull all assets out of the other.

But before I go on i’d like to take a bit of your time to explain what “not winning fast enough” means. I was one of the first if not the first to use this term when writing about the conflict on EN24. When the dust did settle and the CFC did end up taking Tribute, some people criticized the concept and made it sort of a meme joke. I beieve this is due to a lack of understanding. Let’s face it, not everyone has an actual keen eye for strategy, tactics, and logistics. In the major 0.0 battles, unless you’re an FC, a scout, some sort of tackle or have some other unique specialized role you are completely replacable. Oh you just scored 0.02 damage on the super cap that made eve kill’s most expensive list? Tell me more about how leet you are at pvp.

When one’s perspective is limited to that, the meaning behind “not winning fast enough” is difficult to grasp. For my intelligent and competent reader, this is a repeat in what you already know. So for everyone else: when you have a multi alliance coalition comprised of thousands of members spanning sov over several regions with a war chest of trillions of isk, and it takes you months to take one region from an entity a fraction or your mass, you aren’t winning fast enough. Prolonged warfare is always bad, especially for the attacker. There is obviously a gross inefficiency in your structure or capabilities that a simple “lol not winning fast enough” meme will not address. Conversely, it also means that your opponent is capable in one area or another.

Now most of us comprise of some sort of classical Greco-Roman western civilization and as such, while we recognize different qualities, we also recognize that said qualities are not equal. Personal skill is scored higher than the ability to mobilize numbers. Perhaps the Chinese server disagrees. This is why nobody really lauded the CFC for taking Tribute due to numbers yet Dotbros’ loss in Tribute was worth more than the CFC’s victory in the realm of “qualities.” Who would take a forgetable victory over a failure such as Thermopylae? As capable of an FC Mr. Vee and a few others in the CFC are, they will never ascend to the pedastal on which Elo Knight sits even if it may simply due to the tools they each have to use and even if the man is…well just a man like anyone else with his own mistakes. Let’s not forget the January 2012 Elo Erebus loss. Considering that you are reading this I assume it is safe to say you, like everyone else, pulls their pants down to take a shit. Correction, some of you don’t and I look forward to your rage comments below.

Black Legion’s “failure in Tribute” (read as Vince Draken sperging like an undisciplined child over Falcon, on second thought my apology, you must be a prophet because clearly God is keeping your alliance together, nobody else is, let me follow you into the wilderness) was a clear show of prowess. I actually sat through an entire Eve pvp youtube video (which i hate) where BL mowed down a massive CFC Drake fleet by mitigating all incoming damage through the use of a smart bombing battleship. Unfortunately Falcon-gate ruined any chances of those spectacular field battle victories to become anything meaningful. And I don’t have some sort of deep hatred for the CFC but yeah, I did hope they’d lose, simply for the sake of a good story. The big empire falling to the small and dedicated resistance group. It’s not my fault I was born in a country where for hundreds of years our national pastime was killing every large invading army too stupid to try.

Catch them in a mountain pass and drop boulders on them? Check. Lead them into a forest then light it on fire killing any survivors? Check. Dress up as the enemy troops, attack their camp at night and impale any prisoners you have? Check. Lead them into a swamp and swarm them with missile fire until they retreat to a drowning death? Check. So i’ll admit, I have a big soft spot for anyone in the “small resistance group that uses tricky tactics” position. Of course size is a relative concept as the dotbros weren’t exactly the 5 man small gang. In any case, the whole way that Vince handled the Falcon issue was a real let down. Here you had the oppertunity for the small(er) group of defenders to ward off the big bad empire and then Falcon. It’s a bit like watching Iron man but instead of fighting the big bad guy at the end and saving the day, he has an allergic reaction to peanuts and he dies. How lame.

Anyway the point I tried to make was that BL came out looking pretty well after Tribute and instead of giving up their fight with the CFC, they actually continued it further north. They had a fairly nice campaign of terror in Period Basis against Tribal Band where they more or less crushed any local defense but their main noteriety came from hitting CFC entities in the north. It had proved so effective that when the war in Fountain was picking up, the CFC paid BL off to leave them alone. Now I understand why BL would agree to such a thing. Give your hunting grounds time to replenish, take a nice pay off, go visit elsewhere. It isn’t like doing any favors for TEST or ncDOT seemed attractive really. At least the CFC had shown some respect, if not fear. What puzzled me is why ditch Retirement Club? Perhaps not as valuable as a pvp entity, but surely their symbolic presence as a sort of successor to BoB was of some use.

Most confusing for a watcher of BL is figuring out what their goal and narrative is. “Gewd fites” is well and good enough but for how long? Eventually you’ll need some sort of motivating factor. The best thing about Eve after all is the lore we create. For the Goons, it is their Empire, for TEST, it is their redemption, for AAA it is their reconquest, and so on and so forth. Perhaps the answer to that is found by looking within. “We hate those that are most like us, but not us” someone once wrote. It seems to be in human nature to hate the apostate, the schismatic, for they are anathema. But they also challenge a core sense of self. If the one that is sort of like me, is a more authentic me, then what am I? We saw this sort of “hate those that are most like us, but not us” in the Fountain War where the Goon Alliance and their coalition fought TEST Alliance and a group of people that wanted to give a half hearted attempt at war. Goon and TEST are more similar to one another than any other entity. (Go mittens, use this to bring them back into the fold while they’re weak!)

So what does that bring me to? Well it brings me to the “original elite legion” that is Pandemic Legion. PL has been in recent memory a target to a couple strikes from BL with no real retaliation spotted. Perhaps when you’ve always soared so high in the sky and had only needed to look down on others, you lose the muscle strength needed to look up and see if someone is hunting you. I’ll just be blunt. I want to see Pandemic Legion try to keep their title belt and I want to see Black Legion try to take it from them. I’d love nothing more than to see a full out war between the two entities. It would be entertaining not only to participate in, but also watch and read about. For the time being it really looks like PL’s lackluster response suggests they are getting a bit too old. Perhaps they need rest after the Fountain War although BL does not seem to have slowed down a bit after destroying a PL Aeon and a NCDOT Erebus.

We hear rumblings about a possible future conflict between the CFC and N3 but honestly both have more than enough territory to keep themselves fat and rich with. At best we can hope for a punitive war but unfortunately I think both are more likely to hang back spamming “come at me bro” rather than throw any punches. If such a war were to happen, perhaps on a more meaningful level, we could hope to see PL and BL on opposite sides of the battlefield. Personally I think that N3 has too much internal ego issues and vague roles of leadership where as the CFC has a more clear and organized hierarchy which will more than likely land them the strategic victories. We can only speculate as we have no idea where the “3rd World” non aligned entities would swing. Could we see N3 and by extension, Nulli, fleet up with their former enemies, TEST in order to fight the CFC? How would the Neo-Stainwagon Coalition composed of the likes of AAA, Coven and DD interact with Solar Fleet if such a conflict were to erupt? For the time being, we may just have to be satisfied with rumblings of supercap losses here and there until the winter. The “Legion War” between BL and PL has begun but we have yet to see if there will be more than one participant. Off the top of my head i’m counting a Revenant and an Aeon for BL and I look forward to see Pandemid Legion respond.

– Seraph IX Basarab

83 Comments

  1. heh

    lacks a tl;dr

    September 28, 2013 at 3:19 pm Reply
    1. Internet Lawyer

      Tl;dr Ive never been in BL or PL and everything else is just uninformed speculation.

      Cue trolling n the comments about killboard stats…..

      September 28, 2013 at 5:27 pm Reply
  2. meh

    Stopped reading after you made attacking tribal band somehow noteworthy..

    elo seems like quite the asshole from the few videos i have seen. Not that its any different in PL or NC. or whatever l33t alliance is out there.

    September 28, 2013 at 3:46 pm Reply
    1. BL Grunt

      Funny enough he is hilarious on comms because of his excessive A.d.d and trolling.. It is quite fun and always a good laugh on BL comms during fights.. And those tengus.. We tryed something.. Got dunked.. Was good fun.. we all laughed.. and elo did replace them all himself for his screwup.. so meh.. Who cares..

      But honestly these dudes are much more fun then any other alliance I personally have ever been in cuz there are no idiots that get you killed.. everyone preforms near perfectly laughing the whole time as we die or kill..

      September 28, 2013 at 4:39 pm Reply
      1. Ur Stupid

        Did Elo replace your SP too? 😉

        September 28, 2013 at 4:43 pm Reply
        1. M.V Grunt

          A lvl 5 skill is like 5 days.

          It’s not even a factor for me in flying tengus now. (101mil SP)

          September 29, 2013 at 2:43 am Reply
          1. Ur Stupid

            But others may find that consistently losing T3’s a fucking pain in the ass such as myself (68m SP on my main) – For that matter, I can’t fly T3’s yet.

            September 29, 2013 at 12:09 pm
          2. Roderick Grey

            That’s why you aren’t in BL.

            September 29, 2013 at 8:56 pm
          3. Ur Stupid

            And I don’t want to be either. Quite happy being a hi-sec dweller while I barely have any time to play.

            September 29, 2013 at 11:40 pm
    2. reality

      don’t confuse the non asshole elo with shadoo. try googling “armor hacs shadoo” to understand. its a youtube video i believe.

      September 28, 2013 at 7:22 pm Reply
  3. BS

    Recent BL tengu fleet:

    http://killboard.black-legion.us/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9101

    If thats best for you… Those guys are good with hunting SC and sometimes titan, other than that they are just average to say the least.

    September 28, 2013 at 4:00 pm Reply
    1. Duaraa

      >one welp
      >shitty alliance
      pls

      September 28, 2013 at 4:03 pm Reply
    2. BLgrunt

      Sorry I can’t hear you over the sound of that PL Aeon and NCdot Titan we just blew up

      September 28, 2013 at 4:13 pm Reply
      1. BS

        If bloobing a titan is awesome for you, thats cool, everyone is entiteled to their opinion

        September 28, 2013 at 4:19 pm Reply
        1. Dumazz

          How else do you kill a Titan?

          September 28, 2013 at 4:40 pm Reply
          1. Ur Stupid

            Self destruct, obviously.

            September 28, 2013 at 4:42 pm
          2. BS

            Ofc by bloob. So … whats your point ? Or you want to just show your extended l33t pvp knowledge ?

            September 28, 2013 at 5:37 pm
          3. nigger jim

            for the record here, we are not ever going to make “bloob” a thing. stop trying.

            September 28, 2013 at 7:41 pm
          4. lol

            with spies because that is the only way bl can kill one that would get any type of backing

            September 28, 2013 at 9:31 pm
      2. Simon pieman

        eve has sound?

        September 28, 2013 at 10:44 pm Reply
    3. AKA Black Jesus

      wot

      September 28, 2013 at 5:50 pm Reply
    4. BL WUT?

      Bla bla bla, yadda yadda yadda. Elo missed the warp there. I have flewn with them, i have flewn against them. What i can say is that they usually know their shit. More so than the average nullsec grunt. But their ranks got watered down a lot within the last few month due to sperging fanbois joining.

      September 28, 2013 at 9:29 pm Reply
      1. Just a grunt

        I’ve flown with and against elo, and while flying with, I’ve noticed elo holds his fleet’s hand the entire way, which is why I stopped showing up to his fleets. Why would I fly with someone who has zero confidence in his own fleet’s ability.

        Maybe those tengus should have noticed there was no fleet warp coming, and get this, warped themselves.

        September 29, 2013 at 1:23 am Reply
        1. na

          So why don’t you leave, if you prefer to fly your own ship without idiots in your fleets. Well I put this out to you I have flown with several bl fc’s besides elo and more than often with my corp fcs in small scale stuff. So sorry to disappoint you I do get to fly my ship as well as listen to elo’s fleet commands like align, pulse prop mod, shoot at broadcasts switch ammo, re-align, turn on harderners, anchor you fecks and warp to plant x.. if its so easy why don’t you FC..

          September 29, 2013 at 8:06 pm Reply
          1. Simon pieman

            I think you miss his point, rather then splerging your halfwit rage, read what he says, he doesn’t moan just tell’s his opinion, it strikes me that you are prolly one of those drones that need their hands held, or one of the new and watered down failcakes some one else mentions above.

            September 29, 2013 at 9:35 pm
          2. Just a grunt

            Holy shit the rage. Learn to read, I never even said I was currently in BL.

            You say you get you fly your own ship and then list off standard shit that’s expected of even the lowliest CFC plebes. There’s more to flying a ship in a fleet than that, which if you were observant could be avoided. Something tells me you lost a tengu in that fleet and are just mad you didn’t think to warp out on your own.

            September 29, 2013 at 11:09 pm
        2. Titus Veridius

          It is possible….follow me here….that in an alliance based around one FC, that has been wildly successful at what it has been doing…that perhaps the style of FCing is part of the reason for that success. Furthermore, to answer the question “Why would I fly with someone that has zero confidence in his own fleet’s ability”………the people that choose to keep flying in his fleets probably do it because they are successful.

          (FYI, the FC telling you what to do and not giving all pilots the freedom to make decisions whenever they feel like it is a hallmark of extremely successful FCs that run fleets the size that he runs.)

          October 5, 2013 at 9:41 am Reply
          1. Titus Veridius

            Especially when that FC is quad boxing scouts leading to the target system, and getting cov ops warpins for the fleet, and doesn’t have the time, patience, or need to narrate the event so that you will have the necessary information to make decisions to save your ship in the rarer than not case he fucks up. Then again, how many Guristas Lvl5s do have to do to buy a new Tengu fleet? like 3?

            October 5, 2013 at 9:50 am
          2. Titus Veridius

            Forgot to mention you sound like a bitch.

            October 5, 2013 at 9:51 am
      2. BS

        Elo missed warp… Thats just hilarious I didin’t know that. You know that says all about this shit aliance ? If noone from fleet is able to warp out from incoming bombers unles FC fleet-warp them. Wow thats just another level of F1 pushers right there lol. Made my day

        September 29, 2013 at 4:45 pm Reply
    5. kimu
      September 29, 2013 at 6:07 pm Reply
    6. Titus Veridius

      Okay, so a fleet concept that is weak vs small numbers of bombers got killed by a small number of bombers.

      Shit happens. I can show you battle reports of Bad Legion AHAC gangs killing CFC Rohk gangs that bridged at 0 on a gate, on top of the AHACs for no good reason, and got killed to the man with virtually no BL losses. AHACs are strong vs Rohks at 0m. Thus I conclude that was the best the CFC could do, and thusly the CFC are only good at ratting in BS.

      Tadah.

      (::whispers:: logical fallacy )

      October 5, 2013 at 9:33 am Reply
  4. TvM

    BL “had a fairly nice campaign of terror in Period Basis against Tribal Band where they more or less crushed any local defense” – WTF is he talking about. The only significant we’ve seen in Period Basis has been Pizza guys.

    September 28, 2013 at 4:57 pm Reply
  5. Soulxlight

    That last sentence is mistaken a little. I’m counting 1 Revenant, 3 Aeon, and 7 Nyx for BL. The Revenant does kinda overshadow the other MOM kills doing the Revenant massacre . . . but they are still Supers soooo.

    September 28, 2013 at 5:03 pm Reply
    1. anon

      this

      September 28, 2013 at 7:12 pm Reply
  6. Nobody

    “Prolonged warfare is always bad, especially for the attacker.”

    Lets see who can be the first to correctly point out this statement’s revelation about the OP’s fundamental misunderstanding of Eve.

    September 28, 2013 at 5:27 pm Reply
    1. Nobody

      I couldn’t even get beyond the initial half-witted defense of “not winning fast enough”, the concept of which has validity only in so far as it affects the result (for example: you lost because your monstrous alliance’s effort fell apart due to losing morale/money since you were not winning fast enough to maintain those things). Since CFC won, that argument fails, as does the entire concept. Defending the statement at this point is churlish at best.

      September 28, 2013 at 5:34 pm Reply
      1. Seraph IX Basarab

        But see even the CFC only won because of Vince’s falcon rage. They were looking to negotiate terms with the dotbros and then that happened. If the Dotbros would have actually had a unified front, a victory by military means would have been unlikely. You also have to keep in mind Solar Fleet that had been the dotbro’s second front. So here you have an outnumbered entity further outnumbered. Dotbros really just had terrible leadership hierarchy where as the CFC is simply better organized. The CFC doesn’t have to be spectacular at pvp, they’ll just be consistent at not fucking up nearly as much as the opponent, and then logistics, leadership and numbers do the rest.

        September 29, 2013 at 1:13 am Reply
        1. Nobody

          “The CFC doesn’t have to be spectacular at pvp, they’ll just be consistent at not fucking up nearly as much as the opponent, and then logistics, leadership and numbers do the rest.”

          Yes. And this is why “not winning fast enough” defense is particularly indefensible in this case. Particularly in hindsight, a CFC victory in Tribute was inevitable because we now know better who is running the CFC and who was running the Dotbros. You speak as if circumstance caused character, when in fact it was (and is) the other way around.

          September 29, 2013 at 5:55 am Reply
          1. Seraph IX Basarab

            “not winning fast enough” isn’t a defense. Hindsight is 20/20 so what is your point there? Character and circumstance happen together. Vince sperged over a Falcon. Both circumstance and character affected the outcome.

            September 30, 2013 at 3:11 am
          2. Nobody

            I actually meant your ill-fated defense of “not winning fast enough” in your OP. The requested point is that the falcon incident didn’t make Vince do what he did. Vince made the falcon incident into what it was. If it didn’t happen, something else most likely would have because Vince is Vince.

            In short, in regards the CFC and “not winning fast enough”, you got it exactly backwards. As it stands, time in any Eve campaign is on the CFC’s side for the very reasons you yourself stated within this thread (though from which you somehow managed to draw all the wrong conclusions).

            September 30, 2013 at 4:35 am
          3. Seraph IX Basarab

            If the Falcon incident didn’t make Vince act the way he did, what action would have happened that would have made Vince get mad about his Falcon? Do you have a time machine somewhere? Are you just assuming? Speculating?

            Time would be on the CFC’s side if they actually won military engagements. In Tribute they lost the vast majority of them. Their victories came in grinding structures faster than Dotbros could. Who do you think had more “fun” in that war? Using your well informed reasoning concerning Eve social mechanics, as time went on, the side that just grinded structures and moved lines on some imaginary map would have less fun compared to the side that wins 8-9 fights out of 10 or so. No?

            September 30, 2013 at 4:46 am
          4. Nobody

            In answer to your request in the other sub thread as well as this one, my argument is this…

            The heart of your defense of “not winning fast enough” in this article, after stripping out the bs, was this:

            “So for everyone else: when you have a multi alliance coalition comprised of thousands of members spanning sov over several regions with a war chest of trillions of isk, and it takes you months to take one region from an entity a fraction or your mass, you aren’t winning fast enough. Prolonged warfare is always bad, especially for the attacker. There is obviously a gross inefficiency in your structure or capabilities that a simple “lol not winning fast enough” meme will not address”

            My argument is that every sentence in this, the very theme of the preamble of your article, is exactly backwards: A large coalition with trillions of isk in it’s war chest which takes months to take one region from an entity a fraction of it’s mass is indeed doing exactly what it is designed to do. Prolonged warfare in Eve is not always bad for either the attacker or defender, and in this case it was indeed good for the attacker. There is no gross inefficiency in the structure or capabilities made obvious by the timescale of any recent campaign, quite the contrary.

            Everything you are taking as proof of CFC weakness is actually, as it turns out, proof of their strength. The proof for all I’ve said is in the result combined with the stated intention of the CFC to do exactly what it did in each campaign. You can be excused for making the “not winning fast enough” argument during the campaign because it was possible that what you said could have been correct. But defending the original argument (not defending your making of it, which would have been fine, but still saying that you were correct basically if only the Falcon incident never happened – it’s a fine but important distinction) now that you know it was so very wrong is silly. And upping the ante by saying that not only were you right (when you weren’t) but anyone who thinks you were wrong (you were) does so because they just aren’t getting it is both silly and obnoxious. While the “lol not winning fast enough” meme is itself obnoxious it is also essentially correct in it’s sentiment (if unfortunate in it’s presentation).

            On to this thread. I’ll try to answer your questions as asked.

            “If the Falcon incident didn’t make Vince act the way he did, what action would have happened that would have made Vince get mad about his Falcon? Do you have a time machine somewhere? Are you just assuming? Speculating?”

            Well yes I am of course speculating. But the speculation is based upon what I now know about Dotbros and what I now know about CFC. If you had to guess which organization was going to outlast the other if the falcon incident hadn’t happened, would you really pick the Dotbros? Dotbros had fewer people, less isk, less organization and shakier leadership. They were far more likely than CFC to either implode or run out of isk or stretch their people too thin. They may have been able to win, but the longer it lasted, the worse their chances became. The result may not definitively prove this since the Falcon incident indeed happened, but this conclusion is far better supported by the result in this and every subsequent campaign than is your version).

            “Time would be on the CFC’s side if they actually won military engagements. In Tribute they lost the vast majority of them. Their victories came in grinding structures faster than Dotbros could. Who do you think had more “fun” in that war?”

            I’d say that in that campaign as in most major Eve campaigns, the leadership structure on both sides was stressed and the line members on both sides had fun (I’m assuming of course, but as support I’d offer that line members on both sides kept showing up so they were probably having fun). As a line member for CFC I had fun and felt zero pressure (this is not proof of anything just my own experience), but I wouldn’t want to be one of the people organizing either side’s efforts unless there was additional motivation. I’d assume that fatigue on line members was way higher in the Dotbros simply because they had to show up every time or they lose, but nevertheless to their credit they did continue to show up as far as it went. Still, it wouldn’t have mattered if they won every battle (which they didn’t – in my experience it wasn’t quite as one sided as you say), they had to be under far more pressure throughout due to numbers alone, and that is not a recipe for staying power no matter what the kill boards say.

            September 30, 2013 at 6:53 am
          5. Seraph IX Basarab

            A prolonged campaign is not beneficial if you actually understand the concepts behind making war…yes even video game war. It is not as if a campaign in Tribute would be the end all be all last campaign for the CFC. By taking Tribute quickly you open up possibilities to hit other regions. What would you consider more beneficial, taking Tribute in two weeks and striking at region X, or taking several months to take Tribute and then need to give your people a break after expending numerous resources? Any time you do something, you must consider what you are giving up in exchange.

            The only thing that I had outlined as a CFC weakness is their battlefield presence. Having you simply declaring something “wrong and silly” while doing a terrible job proving your point, is not going to move the conversation forward. The very fact that you have CFC numbers dwindling so slow, and in some TZs even allowed the dotbros to have numerical superiority, is proof enough of the effects of a prolonged campaign. I was correct on my point regardless of the falcon incident or not. I’m not sure you got my point though.

            As for which organization would outlast the other, well the CFC of course probably wins here. They have better leadership. But that’s irrelevant as an argument because we don’t know if one entity has the potential to last 10 years and the other 9…something which mattered little in the Tribute campaign which lasted only a few months. Again, another poor argument that’s irrelevant.

            To your last paragraph, i’m glad you had fun. But how many people enjoy getting their fleets dunked on consistently? Maybe you are into that, I doubt most people are. And as I stated above, the proof of this is in the CFC’s numbers at times even being lower than the dotbros. It came to the point that the only way CFC numbers came into play is when they’d structure grind a dozen or so structures at the same time. The dotbros could react, and destroy, only a couple of those fleets. But if you kill 2 fleets out of 12, you’re still losing those 10 structures. And THAT’S how the CFC was “winning.” Vince’s rage over the Falcon simply ended the conflict early. Saying “but they’d have lost anyway because Vince is a bad leader” is a meaningless argument. You have to work on a more credible level than just that.

            September 30, 2013 at 2:44 pm
          6. Nobody

            “A prolonged campaign is not beneficial if you actually understand the concepts behind making war…yes even video game war”

            You are dense beyond words.

            “What would you consider more beneficial, taking Tribute in two weeks and striking at region X, or taking several months to take Tribute and then need to give your people a break after expending numerous resources? Any time you do something, you must consider what you are giving up in exchange.”

            You are trying to change your own argument from “not winning fast enough was valid, I was right dammit!” to “fast is better to slow”. Sorry, but you can have that out with someone else. I’ll stick to topic.

            “The only thing that I had outlined as a CFC weakness is their battlefield presence.”

            You said they were “not winning fast enough”, and therefore they would lose. That encompasses a lack of staying power compared to their enemy. Wrong. Laughably wrong.

            “Having you simply declaring something “wrong and silly” while doing a terrible job proving your point, is not going to move the conversation forward.”

            I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t make him think. I have laid out the proof as clearly as I can, where you go from there is up to you. Me repeating my case slower in smaller words won’t do anyone any good.

            “The very fact that you have CFC numbers dwindling so slow, and in some TZs even allowed the dotbros to have numerical superiority, is proof enough of the effects of a prolonged campaign.”

            Dotbros had numerical superiority through Aus TZ only. I believe they started that way and ended that way.

            “I was correct on my point regardless of the falcon incident or not. I’m not sure you got my point though.”

            I get your point. It is unsupported, poorly addressed, nakedly self serving and plainly wrong.

            “As for which organization would outlast the other, well the CFC of course probably wins here. They have better leadership. But that’s irrelevant as an argument because we don’t know if one entity has the potential to last 10 years and the other 9…something which mattered little in the Tribute campaign which lasted only a few months. Again, another poor argument that’s irrelevant.”

            Dotbros lasted what, 5 weeks? They were lucky to last that long, but that’s only my opinion. The fact is they lasted several weeks (ish). If you choose to believe they would have lasted for years and therefore you were ‘right, dammit!’, that is your choice.

            “But how many people enjoy getting their fleets dunked on consistently? Maybe you are into that, I doubt most people are. And as I stated above, the proof of this is in the CFC’s numbers at times even being lower than the dotbros.”

            Again, Aus TZ start to finish.

            If you still feel the CFC is “not winning fast enough” (which you said at the time meant they will lose the campaign, but you now are trying to change to meaning they are losing opportunity cost – an embarrassingly transparent exercise in self rescue), then it is your right. Just don’t be surprised when you get publicly excoriated for doing so.

            After all, you earned it.

            October 1, 2013 at 1:59 am
          7. Seraph IX Basarab

            “You are dense beyond words.”

            Kind of a pointless ad hom. Doesn’t really hurt my feelings nor does it further the discussion.

            “You are trying to change your own argument from “not winning fast enough was valid, I was right dammit!” to “fast is better to slow”. Sorry, but you can have that out with someone else. I’ll stick to topic.”

            They’re the same exact thing. I don’t know why you are having trouble following that.

            “I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t make him think. I have laid out the proof as clearly as I can, where you go from there is up to you. Me repeating my case slower in smaller words won’t do anyone any good.”

            You’d actually have to make it, first before you can repeat it. All you’ve said is that “eve is different than real war” and “vince was a bad leader so NCdot would lose somehow anyway.” That’s pretty much it.

            “Dotbros had numerical superiority through Aus TZ only. I believe they started that way and ended that way.”

            If you can think that far back you would remember that Aus TZ was the star child of the Mittani’s activity project. Aus TZ was suppose to be some big hard asses but got creamed by NCdot completely. Euro and US TZ also began lacking numbers toward the end of the campaign.

            “I get your point. It is unsupported, poorly addressed, nakedly self serving and plainly wrong.”

            You’re the only one with a horse in this race so you may address these accusations to yourself.

            “Dotbros lasted what, 5 weeks? They were lucky to last that long, but that’s only my opinion. The fact is they lasted several weeks (ish). If you choose to believe they would have lasted for years and therefore you were ‘right, dammit!’, that is your choice.”

            You’re being purposefully incompetent. We weren’t saying that dotbros would last years in Tribute. We were talking about the life expectancy as an entity in this case. Do keep up.

            “Again, Aus TZ start to finish.”

            Not really, no. And the other TZs? What was their excuse for getting dunked on?

            “If you still feel the CFC is “not winning fast enough” (which you said at the time meant they will lose the campaign, but you now are trying to change to meaning they are losing opportunity cost – an embarrassingly transparent exercise in self rescue), then it is your right. Just don’t be surprised when you get publicly excoriated for doing so.”

            Which I said at the time to mean they will lose the campaign? Hot damn we have a mind reader here. Listen you sound like the brightest guy in your high school debate team but you can’t make these sort of claims when backing the claim up is literally impossible. So one more time for you: Not winning fast enough referred to the CFC’s slow pace at taking one region from a force much smaller than they were in every sense of the word. Their pace showed a lack of battlefield prowess which was mitigated by only their abundance of numbers in man power, resources and the leadership ability of the CFC (or inability of dotbros.) Dotbros did not lose the battlefield engagements. They lost because they couldn’t keep up with the CFC’s number of siege fleets taking out structures and sov. The CFC did this well but took heavy losses doing this. If we keep in mind the CFC’s trend of losing activity, to dotbro’s numeric consistency, we can assume that if that rate was maintained there would be a point in which the CFC’s numeric superiority would no longer be enough of a factor to balance out their battlefield weakness. Not ending the campaign fast enough, with these factors in play, would more than likely ended up in a failure. The fact that the CFC was literally days away from offering the dotbros some sort of deal over Tribute is proof enough of this. However we did not see this result simply due to the Falcon incident. Is that a difficult concept for you?

            October 1, 2013 at 4:14 am
          8. Nobody

            This has long since deteriorated into verbal masturbation, which isn’t even fun since nobody is still reading it except us. See ya on the flip side.

            October 1, 2013 at 5:01 am
      2. Titus Veridius

        Not winning fast enough, as a concept in relation to the War in the North is relevant in a way, regardless of the eventual outcome. If we recognize that that conflict, between a much larger and a much smaller entity was indeed a “prolonged” conflict then that concept (which is largely same as not winning fast enough) is important in and of itself if you accept that the norm in Eve is that the side that can put significantly more ships in space at any given time usually wins, wins quickly, and wins with a very skewed kills/losses ratio.

        It provides relevant insight into the weaknesses and strengths of those perhaps archetypal entities, in a given set of circumstances and may help other organizations in the future make decisions in future conflicts with similar factors.

        We’ve seen what can be done with fewer pilots, a few extremely good fcs, high defensive morale, higher average sp pilots, a superior Australian time zone, and those fcs/leaders making good strategic decisions especially in relation to fleet doctrines and counters.

        If this seems like common sense, you probably haven’t talked to enough people that aren’t aware of said examples and thus have little room for imagination when it comes to what is and what isn’t possible.

        It’s funny, now that I write this, and I look back on your insistence that you can’t compare real wars to Eve wars, that there are plenty of examples of real entities not taking into account lessons learned from previous conflicts, and not realizing their potential for much more substantial resistance. I could write pages on how the example of the Iraqi insurgency vs US Occupation has changed the insurgency game for at least the next 40-50 years…but only if those lessons are absorbed with proper perspective and adapted to another entities particular circumstances. They can be easily ignored, especially in places like Africa where access to information, formal military training, and even the expertise to build simple electronic devices is less prevalent.

        That Eve does not mimic real life in relation to war, is the same as saying the Eve does not mimic real life in relation to markets. Obviously there are factors present in one that aren’t present in the other, but there is far more in common between how people act in Eve and real life than there are differences. People are the common factor.

        So basically what I am saying is that your premise…that nothing said on this topic is relevant because the CFC won…is pretty fucking retarded.

        October 5, 2013 at 9:26 am Reply
    2. Seraph IX Basarab

      You ever do any sort of military study? I know I run the risk of sounding really arm chair general-esque here since this is a discussion over the internet but i’d brush up on that. Everyone wants to act like they can go balls deep pvp alarm clock every night of their life…until they have to do it and they get tired of it.

      September 29, 2013 at 1:08 am Reply
      1. Nobody

        Enough to know that Eve has nothing to do with military study. Here, let me help you:

        Real military campaigns involve motivations, limitations and consequences which are completely, totally, utterly (and every other synonymous word you can think of) alien to Eve or any other game of any sort. Any Eve campaign has about as much to do with military campaigning as you have to do with a real military strategist (forgive the ad hominem… but you have to admit it’s appropriate).

        With me so far? Good! I’m almost finished, hang in there!

        Eve is a game which is enjoyed by a certain segment of people (lets call them “null alliance players”) who enjoy prolonged, attacking engagements. One might even say that these prolonged, attacking engagements are the very reason they play the game, and one might also say that the downtime between prolonged, attacking campaigns is when these people get bored and stop playing.

        Do yourself a favor: save the Clauswitz for your Risk club. It’ll sound just as dumb, but they’re probably a more forgiving audience.

        (To the alarm clock comment: You waaaay overestimate the whip factor in the CFC. Outside of leadership perhaps, who are the most motivated out of everyone since they have the most to gain, nobody alarm clocks who doesn’t want to).

        September 29, 2013 at 5:48 am Reply
        1. Seraph IX Basarab

          Thanks, nobody needed to be told Eve was a game and that war is different. I simply noted some aspects are common. But if you feel better writing that by all means. Don’t let me get in your way.

          Risk club? Does exist? Never played it.

          September 30, 2013 at 3:13 am Reply
          1. Nobody

            “You ever do any sort of military study? I know I run the risk of sounding really arm chair general-esque here since this is a discussion over the internet but i’d brush up on that.”

            This clearly implies that you can learn about one by reading the other. You can’t. It also implies that you have knowledge of one which gives you insight into the other. It doesn’t, and you don’t.

            Although you minimize the importance you placed on it now, the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of your OP rested squarely upon the parallel you drew (bringing us back to my OP in this thread).

            (You also managed a healthy dose of condescension into those paragraphs for anyone not bright enough to agree with you, which of course made my retorts all the more fun for me and hopefully entertaining for any observer who enjoys some healthy comeuppance.)

            Hey, I do kind of feel better!

            September 30, 2013 at 4:20 am
          2. Seraph IX Basarab

            You haven’t even made a comptetent argument to talk. All you’ve said is that Eve =/= real life military. Well duh. Great observation. I simply said some things were similar. Reading about real military strategy doesn’t equate to giving you perfect insight on Eve, but it alleviates some of the ignorance which you seem to be championing. Nice strawmen arguments.

            September 30, 2013 at 4:31 am
          3. Nobody

            Responding in two threads is making me dizzy. Switching to the other one to respond to both.

            September 30, 2013 at 6:53 am
  7. Soldarius

    I got to “They had a fairly nice campaign of terror in Period Basis against Tribal Band where they more or less crushed any local defense” and stopped.

    What game are you playing? BL rarely showed anywhere in Tribe space. There was no campaign of terror in PB by any entity. Like any sov-holding nulsec alliance we lived under the occasional threat of blops drops, mostly from -DD- or other stain russians. We got good at counter-dropping them. Once or twice some group would swing through with a random gang. Idiots with ratting carriers died from time to time.

    September 28, 2013 at 5:41 pm Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      Yeah we don’t really need the damage control here. My comment about Tribe was like a sentence. Chill out.

      September 29, 2013 at 1:14 am Reply
  8. AKA Black Jesus

    wtf i cant believe i just read this the entirety of this babble. and im still sitting here like wtf ?????

    September 28, 2013 at 5:43 pm Reply
  9. Bleh

    Got to the forth paragraph, and omg, couldnt read no more. I do have to say Mr Vee was an awesome FC in the PL vs CVC ‘Head-shot VFK’ campaign, far more worthy than Elo by a long shot.

    Still, not been with goons for long time, but this Elo Knight Propaganda is getting a little silly now. Can we plz end it. He just isnt in the same league as any of the main PVP alliances FCs from N3 (Do not even mention Archibald, he dont count)

    Seriously, I’m not aware of anything other than harrasing the fk out of ppl. No serious campaigns. The CFC vs Test just doesnt count, as most of N3 couldnt give a shit about Test, and N3 turnout was better than theres most the time lol.

    September 28, 2013 at 6:25 pm Reply
    1. na

      Lol, we will see, archie v elo.. you obviously weren’t around in the cfc v test war where you?. Those who where can count on both hands the time archie would dock up, when his intel told him bl and pizza where forming. Bl killed as many cfc then N3. BL has around 1k dudes and boy we will enjoy brawling with you hehe.

      September 29, 2013 at 7:56 pm Reply
    2. haha

      “Fleets is up……Fleet stand down”

      -Archibald

      October 3, 2013 at 5:51 am Reply
    3. Titus Veridius

      I’m guessing you weren’t in the Mr Vee fleets that got ass fucked in Tribute and Venal.

      October 5, 2013 at 8:31 am Reply
  10. Marcus

    Although I actually like BL, this was an extremely uninteresting article. It just dragged on far to long, and didn’t really seem to say anything insightful.

    September 28, 2013 at 9:47 pm Reply
  11. Toshi

    You won’t see BL vs PL because BL docks up unless it’s a gank.

    September 28, 2013 at 11:40 pm Reply
    1. Guy

      Sounds like most alliances. If PL isn’t able to pull BL into a fight that’s a failure on their part.

      September 29, 2013 at 12:26 am Reply
      1. Simon pieman

        I think the real problem is that even if PL was to pull them into a fight pings to daddy CFC would be flying and their goon overlords would come sailing to their rescue, another perk from gobbling the CFC off.

        Whats the saying? At 10% TIDI everyone is in range.

        September 29, 2013 at 9:37 pm Reply
        1. Titus Veridius

          You are right. The real problem is that PL + NC. are scared of Goon supers. That’s definitely why CFC was using stealth bombers to grind structures in Delve, and not supers. Definately.

          October 5, 2013 at 8:25 am Reply
          1. Simon pieman

            I think its the thousands of sub caps that are the problem, supers aren’t what they once were and without sub cap superiority you will struggle to win, of course there is no way that PL would be able to get that against the CFC.

            October 9, 2013 at 9:50 pm
    2. Titus Veridius

      Yeah, they sure did gank 100+ PL BS with those stealth bombers bridged at 0m. They might as well go gank Orcas with catalysts. Am I right? In fact CFC was getting ganked so hard they had to pay Bad Legion hundreds of billions to stop the ganking. Solar paying BL to gank people? God fucking gankers. All they do. ^.^

      October 5, 2013 at 8:22 am Reply
  12. heh

    People have been dunking fleets and raping supers/titans for years, it is neat that BL thinks they are important now, but silly.

    September 29, 2013 at 12:49 am Reply
    1. Titus Veridius

      Black Legion has been by far the most interesting thing to happen to Eve in the last year and a half. For a game this old, that is saying a lot. Whether its killing Revanants, Doomcats, or putting up a brilliant fight against the CFC in Venal/Tribute, you would have to be a dumb, perspective-less, bitter vet cunt who probably lost something expensive to a Munin gang to deny they are doing something special.

      October 5, 2013 at 8:18 am Reply
  13. zvero

    This is the worst article I’ve ever read.

    September 29, 2013 at 10:56 am Reply
    1. Simon pieman

      One name, Goblin.

      September 29, 2013 at 9:40 pm Reply
  14. Couch

    Fuck off seraph, go get kicked out of whyso again ya shmuck

    September 29, 2013 at 6:23 pm Reply
  15. Roderick Grey

    We ditched 401k because they were fucking useless, yet demanded moons, copied comps yet failed to bring the right ships to fleets, sperged up a storm and were such a bitter husk that they abandoned Venal 3 days after the reset and have lost almost half their membership.

    September 29, 2013 at 8:59 pm Reply
    1. Simon pieman

      You dumped them as your initiation into the CFC pethood demanded it, this drivel will convince no one.

      September 29, 2013 at 9:39 pm Reply
      1. Roderick Grey

        Yeah the region worth of moons and one less retard to blue had nothing to do with it

        September 30, 2013 at 6:28 am Reply
  16. Dennis the Dreamer

    BL is now officially the new HODOR.

    October 1, 2013 at 4:56 am Reply
  17. Shadowblade1436

    I agree BL is better than PL, by a lot. PL can only drop Supers on people, and pray they don’t get counter dropped by BL lol. Watch the two closely, when BL moves into an area, PL moved out.. PL can’t fight BL so they run.

    October 3, 2013 at 10:25 am Reply
    1. Titus Veridius

      [email protected] dumb fuck.

      Black Legion is one of a few groups of it’s size (if not the only one) that can really make PL pay for mistakes. So being in titan bridge range may not be the best decision if you have other objectives. But PL only being able to drop supers? That is a little inaccurate. PL probably has the biggest concentration of competent FCs in Eve. Also, has it been so long since PL was last doing good things with subcaps? Surely not.

      Short memory and no perspective. There are far more accurate things you could say negatively about PL.

      October 5, 2013 at 8:12 am Reply
  18. shite site

    We shall see, if ELO drops off BL is done for, they have noone but ELO. With potential FCs like ips leaving they lack enough base for an alliance like theirs. ELO literally can’t catch a break. This almost happened a year or so ago when Origin. came begging to merge with Sniggerdly. I rest my case

    October 3, 2013 at 6:42 pm Reply
  19. chives

    oh my god it goes on and on and it’s so fucking terrible

    October 4, 2013 at 10:29 pm Reply
  20. chives

    how does this garbage get published jesus christ

    October 4, 2013 at 10:30 pm Reply

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