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When the Goons announced that they (read: the greater CFC) would be renting out space I was flabbergasted as that was one of the distinguishing marks of some CFC propaganda: “we’re not weak slumlords, we are a coalition of the willing that work together and the weak are not welcome”. Not to mention the years of scamming people trying to get into Goonswarm itself or its space.

In an analysis piece at Jester’s Trek Ripard Teg looks at the reason for this game changing move and wonders if this is a good thing or not:

Now in practice, this hasn’t mattered since Dominion was released in late 2009, and the reason — ironically enough — was the moons themselves. In a lot of ways, they acted as control rods for the nuclear reactor of a large sov alliance. We refer to “the north” as a unit because that’s where the tech moons tended to be clumped and for the longest time a single coalition held “the north.” That single coalition has changed over the years but the natural boundaries have not. Alliances in that area took the valuable moons, and then humans being human and because we like clean endings and round numbers, tried to establish buffer zones at the regional borders. Once those borders were established, the alliances behind them tended not to stray too far from home because few alliances could project power across a wide enough sphere to both launch invasions far from home and protect the moons held there.
But now those moons aren’t worth as much, are they?
Alliances used to measure their budgets based on the number of moons they held but as I established yesterday, that’s unlikely to be a thing for much longer. Alliances will probably be a bit more casual about losing moons knowing full well that individual moons here and there probably aren’t going to be fought over to the extent that they have been, they won’t be defended quite so vigorously, and they’ll therefore be easier to take back when needed. To a large extent, EVE has lost a conflict driver… a pretty big conflict driver.

[…]

But if they’re successful, the “big blue doughnut” has a chance of becoming much more fact than fiction. As I said, rental income scales very well and the eventual war between the CFC and N3 seems inevitable at this point. If the CFC starts conquering new regions in the south, they could find themselves once again in control of nearly unlimited wealth… wealth that the graph above shows would dwarf their previous fortunes made on the tech throne. And more importantly, wealth that would be even easier to maintain.
Without the natural control rods holding back the growth of sov and sitting on an easily scalable income source, it might be very tempting for the CFC (or N3, should they start winning the war) to just expand… and expand… and expand some more.
Did things just get better or worse?

Sorry for quoting so much but I wanted to make sure the context is clear of his post. To summarize, moon income has dropped in the Odyssey environment and the R64 moons conquered in Fountain, the casus belli for the conflict with TEST alliance, has proven insufficient for the addiction that is Space Communism. Ripard’s concern is that the income from holding space and renting it out dwarfs that of moon income and, according to Ripard, scales well such that he envisions a coalition possibly growing and growing to encompass more and more space.

ships_rorq

I’ve always had an issue with moon mining. Despite being a resource that has to be gathered, the fact that its gathered by a few specialized trusted people in an alliance/coalition in a secure facility that requires significant force to attack, with a reinforcement timer to allow defenders to rally. Entire coalitions of thousands of pilots were held up financially by the work of a fraction of the number of pilots in very secure working environments. After all, how many times did you see killmails for moon goo being moved from null sec to market? Moon POSes and jump freighters made it impossible to interdict that gravy train.

The resulting financial model is a Top-Down where for all intents and purposes the value of the moon goo is injected directly into alliance coffers and then filters down to the base via sov bills, jump bridges, and ship replacement programs. And only coalition warfare could sufficiently threaten it in any meaningful way.

Renting is completely different. The typical structure is that the pilots of the renting alliance work the “fields”, i.e. belts and anomalies, to make ISK and a portion of that is collected via taxes or fees by the corporation, of which a portion (or all) is diverted to the renter alliance, which then pays a fee to the renting alliance. This bottom up model means that ISK is generated low on the pyramid by the pilots and has to filter up to the top before it filters back down as alliance activities.

I like this model better for several reasons.

First of all, more space being used. Instead of swathes of empty systems sitting idle because no one really needs to rat or mine to generate ISK there, the renters will put those “ghetto” systems to work and increase null sec population density. And what does increased population density mean? MORE TARGETS!

And not just an increase of targets for hostile entities, but in increase in vulnerable targets. Renters, as a generalization, tend to be less plugged into intel channels, have lower average PvP skills, and tend to be less attentive overall. Unlike reinforcing a moon, a small force can roam through a constellation and look for targets that they can kill and escape before the local policing alliance can respond.

Which brings us to another point: a concentrated effort to disrupt an alliance’s financial backbone has more chances to succeed against a model with many small vulnerable ISK generators than few solidly defended ISK generators. Its simply harder to defend many points at once than fewer.

So, what about scalability? Ripard contends that the moons as alliance/coalition acted as “control rods” and prevented a coalition from growing beyond its natural boundaries, holding up the various incarnations of the coalitions in the north as examples. I’m not one hundred percent convinced by his reasoning. The original Northern Coalition existed prior to Technetium becoming super valuable and the boundaries changed many times over the years. I think the case is that the North is geographically natural zone for common defense, much like a similar zones in Fountain-Delve-Period Basis area in the south and the Dronelands in the east. The moon wealth that concentrated there for the past years has increased that natural zone, but is not solely responsible for it.

Will renting allow the CFC to grow beyond the North and Fountain? Well, renting is not a new concept in Eve and we’ve never seen a coalition that used renters grow abnormally large, even when its renter alliance grew to become one of the largest alliances in the game at the time (ref: Shadows of xXDeathXx).Granted, the Goon-led CFC is a different beast and if anyone could pull it off, they could.

But I have my doubts. I suspect the new world of landlord will be a hard hat to wear for the goons. Time will tell.

- Kirith Kodachi

We are proud to bring you the stories, opinions and musings of a long time pilot who has dabbled in everything New Eden has to offer, he writes and podcasts about his opinions and adventures at Ninveah.com

63 Comments

  1. Red Teufel

    If you want to know what a rental empire does to alliances look at the south. there wont be a giant blue donut. the only reason there are blues over there is because of threat of invasion otherwise people will just reset each-other.

    August 20, 2013 at 2:46 pm Reply
  2. personally I like the isk generating model of the Chinese servers. where people are encouraged to rat and a large % of their ratting income goes straight to the alliance. no need to deal with renters and paying for systems and these carebears also shoe up for fleets. however these alliances are about the size of test (maybe bigger, not sure)

    August 20, 2013 at 3:00 pm Reply
    1. nigger jim

      ever taken a trip to chinese nulsec? where pvp is a myth and the fights are scheduled? it sucks. also i ganked a hauler on chinese server and this dude honestly couldnt believe i did it. apparently shit like that never happens over there. wierd shit them chinese…

      August 20, 2013 at 6:06 pm Reply
      1. Bob

        Fights are scheduled? Chinese server works differently then Tranquility? And how do you get on the chinese server?

        August 20, 2013 at 7:37 pm Reply
        1. nigger jim

          almost like getting on the test server but change the target to the name of the chinese one, i forget the name of it at the moment but a quick google search should help

          August 21, 2013 at 12:20 pm Reply
          1. Provistani

            Perhaps loads of us should invade the chinese server for a laugh.

            August 21, 2013 at 1:04 pm
          2. ThatGuy

            Make a pvp corp called Shits and Giggles on it.

            August 23, 2013 at 11:36 am
      2. TiredOfAllTheStupid

        There are FIGHTS on the Chinese server?? Where do I sign up!

        August 21, 2013 at 2:26 am Reply
  3. mick

    fuck this game. Its about isk, real money iceland isk.
    Ccp is doing their decision based on statistics.
    Statistics are telling that every time when big alliance or corporation
    is disbanding ccp loses permanently paying customers in real money.
    Goons/Cfc is simply too big money source to let disband. Thats why ccp is and has been
    doing ship “balancing”. Titan nerf, super nerf… endless nerfing to prevent
    goons to fail. Soon you will see new nerfs that are directly again favouring
    goons.

    August 20, 2013 at 3:37 pm Reply
    1. nomad

      CCP just nerfed goons passive income to hell, but yeah that butthurt… never stops.

      August 20, 2013 at 5:35 pm Reply
      1. blubb

        but in the same move they located the new moons etc pp into test-land, giving goons an easy target for an (goon).entertaining war – freeing all that space for their renter dreams – or do you really think goons.command came up with that renting idea just a week ago?!

        August 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm Reply
        1. nigger jim

          if ccp really really wanted to make it that easy they would have moved the moons to provi

          August 20, 2013 at 6:07 pm Reply
    2. Joseph Blade

      serious case of tinfoil.
      they’re nerfing ships for all players. guess you’re a ragequit super char

      August 20, 2013 at 5:38 pm Reply
    3. Ur Stupid

      Everyone quits when an alliance/coalition disbands? Didn’t know that one before.

      August 20, 2013 at 8:30 pm Reply
    4. Dave The Rave

      Oh dear

      August 20, 2013 at 9:02 pm Reply
    5. Bring the Pain

      How many Dev alts do you think are in goons?…. go figure

      August 22, 2013 at 2:46 pm Reply
  4. DubbaYooArr

    I agree with Kirith, in the end a bottom design is better for Eve/Null than a top down. Renters will bring more people to null and in turn create more content, there is just TOO much empty space right now. Alliances with large territories for the sake of holding large territories did not invest the time and/or isk to upgrade and develop outlying systems – by renting off those systems, renters will have a more vested interest in developing and populating the space. More pilots in null means more content overall.

    Also, the potential for economic disruption is much more feasible under a renter model. Small squadrons and blops teams can have a meaningful impact against the bottom up income of the renter coalitions which is a positive for Eve. Money moons of the largest blocs were basically all but invulnerable to attack except from another bigger bloc or one of similar size. Now, small forces can actively disrupt the economic model of these renter coalitions through harassment, camping, black ops etc.

    One down side is that now large swaths of space will be buffered by large swaths of blue renters – then again this is nothing new.

    August 20, 2013 at 6:11 pm Reply
    1. ThatGuy

      BoB had this, but as soon as their renters were being pushed to fight more for their space, they abandoned ship.

      August 23, 2013 at 11:32 am Reply
  5. John Masters

    The sad fact is not everyone is nimble enough to have a fair chance at PvP. We all know that reaction time is critical and, well, gate camps are no longer easy to avoid. Going to null sec is unprofitable.
    Result: If you are not already in an alliance to use their jump gates, you must get past the campers who have such an advantage that they do it 23 hours a day. Its profitable to control the gateways to null sec so they fight for control so they can run the camp themselves.
    But it makes it difficult for small groups to get to null sec in the first place. I like 0,0 space, its getting there that is the problem. Rarely, I find a wormhole from a high sec system to a null sec. Good times, until I need to reload ammo, or try to get loots out.
    Offering to rent unused 0.0 systems to small corps would also have to have some assistance with the job of getting to and from null sec. I would gladly give half my rewards to an alliance that could protect me from low sec to the happy hunting ground. A jump bridge from the middle of Empire space would be perfect.
    Frankly, I am a solo player and while I can fight most 0.0 rats, I haven’t a chance against the organized gangs camping the paths to null sec. If the Goons want renters, I would be glad to follow their rules. It is a better offer than any other Alliance could guarantee.
    I play about ten hours a week, and in 0.0 space I could easily generate ten million ISK an hour, and I would give half of that to anyone who can provide safety and passage. Now, suppose there are ten thousand or so other pilots who would go for a fair deal like that…
    This would be very rewarding. Now I would not expect the landlord alliance to come to my aid, but they should make an effort to police their space from roving intruders.

    August 20, 2013 at 7:23 pm Reply
    1. Ur Stupid

      Nullified t3’s. ’nuff said.

      August 20, 2013 at 8:26 pm Reply
    2. niko

      Average ratting with naga + carrier support + isthar is 125m per hour. If you remove the carrier and use that char to loot salvage it would be around 150m per hour. It is quite tiring though. The combo of vindicator + SB machariels apparently generates 360m per hour.

      So 10m per hour is if you belt rat for 20 minutes and then dock.

      Not even mentioning complexes. So I guess for that amount of money you can at least take care of your own logistics and ship security. JBs are also not alliance only so being part of a blue renter alliance already helps you there.

      August 21, 2013 at 1:32 am Reply
    3. no

      as a member of an organised roving gang that camps those pipes, your kill is worth far more then 5 mill/hour. the culture of 0.0 is based on killing, and claiming trophies – killmails.

      fuck being lousy citizen. citizens arent human and must be exploited. this is the way all coalition leaders think, some are more open about it then others. so do not become citizen, as it will be hard to rise above it, after you have it on your employment history. or so is my expirience of it.

      anyway, kill instead of being killed. organise a gang, practice on test server, damn it.

      nothing in this world is free.

      August 21, 2013 at 8:55 am Reply
    4. eurynome

      i’m sorry but i can make between 50 and 100M / hour in HIGH running lvl4 with a machariel and a noctis behind him.
      and lowsec income is more, just running combat sig / ded.

      just saying that either you never been in null, or you really bad at eve

      August 21, 2013 at 10:08 am Reply
    5. Johan du Preez

      Come join us in Providence, all our stations is open to dock at as well.

      August 21, 2013 at 2:31 pm Reply
      1. ---

        The problem is provi is shit space and there are significantly more hostiles etc roaming around than there are in say fade or branch.

        August 21, 2013 at 5:03 pm Reply
    6. ThatGuy

      I’ve slowboated all the way through fountain to cloud ring, never saw one camp. Occasional cloaky, sure. Its more quiet than people seem to believe. They only begin gate camping / roaming if they know they can get the kills and justify being there.

      August 23, 2013 at 11:15 am Reply
    7. ThatGuy

      Fatal Ascension never needed any help moving from Scalding Pass right to Evoke’s doorstep. Having to stop the move to begin combat immediately.

      Sure, we had alot of help taking the space itself, but you guys are paying Goons to drop sov for you. You dont have to fight for it, only to fight to protect it.

      August 23, 2013 at 11:25 am Reply
  6. Provi Miner

    Here is the very basic bottom line problem the landlord is responsible for the safety of the renter. Till goons can evict cloaky t-3 and keep ther people under control it will fail

    August 20, 2013 at 8:12 pm Reply
    1. NC renter

      The landlord make sure infrastructure is staying intact and counter invasion attempts. Dealing with campers, cloaky or not, as well as dealing with roaming gangs on the other hand is up to the renters. They pay for the right to be there without being shot by the landlords and for the ability to use stations etc. The payments does not in any way guarantee safety from outsiders. This goes for any entity that rent out space.

      August 20, 2013 at 10:38 pm Reply
      1. Provistani

        Aha, but there isn’t any way whatsoever to deal with campers. That’s why the Goon rental scheme will fail, just as long as there are enough cloaky campers to ensure that it does.

        August 21, 2013 at 12:46 pm Reply
        1. ThatGuy

          Learn to pvp against one target. If you’re paying for it; Its your space, deal with it.

          August 23, 2013 at 11:13 am Reply
      2. Provi Miner

        so your saying that renters have the obligation of taking care of the local defenses? And are responsible for any pests that show up? sounds more like contract for sale (without the sale) rather then renting? if so why not call it what is. you get to pay for the privilages of paying the price for everything (other then invasion).

        August 21, 2013 at 3:52 pm Reply
      3. Mord Fiddle

        NC renter’s observation is common practice at present. Unless sov is threatened the landlord is not normally obliged to provide protection when raiding parties wander through renter systems. The usual renter tactic is to safe up until the bad guys get bored and go away (blue-balling) or organize a bait and kill party. Landlord fleets looking for a bit of PvP action can, of course, respond to larger fleets of interlopers but will not usually bother with a small gang unless it ventures into areas they populate.

        This being the case, the best renter systems for industry and mining are backwater constellations that don’t see a lot of traffic. The planned renting space for Goonswarm is in an area easily accessed from lowsec. I don’t expect a lot of industry to go on there, but there will be small gang PvP aplenty.

        August 22, 2013 at 1:42 pm Reply
    2. CyberSarge

      So exactly how do you go about evicting a cloaky t3? The only way I knwo how to deal with them is wait till they move then try and catch them. Other than that you just leave them alone. But I would like to hear your learned opinion….

      August 20, 2013 at 11:48 pm Reply
      1. Provi Miner

        Not my problem I am the renter your the landlord. Want me to pay then its on you to make sure I can pay you by keeping the pest factor down. So figure it out then maybe I will consider renting. Or just hire someone with a full slave set.

        August 21, 2013 at 3:14 am Reply
        1. Seller

          I don’t think you get how this works. You have to rent because you are weak.

          If you can’t pay then you can forget about having any space. It isn’t a fucking charity, you’ll accept the terms dictated to you by an alliance that can hold your space or you can stay in Highsec.

          August 21, 2013 at 12:10 pm Reply
          1. Provi Miner

            and therin lays the answer. if the landlord can’t do his job his renters will move. Thanks for making my point.

            August 21, 2013 at 3:49 pm
          2. CyberSarge

            So you think there are vast numbers of cloaky toons waiting to take up residence in all the space the CFC is going to rent out? Good luck with that.

            August 21, 2013 at 4:00 pm
        2. ThatGuy

          You clearly don’t understand what the rental agreement entales.

          We’re not here to police your systems for you. It’s your space. You’re paying for it, is all. Otherwise you go back to hisec and some other alliance continues where you left off.

          Plenty more fish in the sea.

          August 23, 2013 at 11:06 am Reply
      2. ThatGuy

        There is no predisposed method to remove cloaky t3’s. Primarily luck when they make a mistake or jump through a gate with something near enough to decloak and scram it. Even then, most T3 Cloakers will have Stabs and Nullifiers, to resist being pinned down.

        August 23, 2013 at 11:05 am Reply
  7. morebortsigns

    if someone actually belivies CFC would forma fleet to “defend” renters contact me asap because i have a bridge for sale! it leads from wherever you live to hellokittyland!

    August 20, 2013 at 8:19 pm Reply
    1. CyberSarge

      Hmm fair question and that would depend on where you are and the force attacking you. I have lived in null sec for a few years now and most gangs will move on if there is nothing to kill. Standing in one place just give the defenders time to gather a larger force. But if you keep an eye on and contribute to intel channels your chances of getting help are very good. Aside from SMA I don’t know any CFC alliance that will let hostiles hang about their systems.

      August 20, 2013 at 11:44 pm Reply
    2. ThatGuy

      If it means good fights? They might very well do so. Or for a renter who has actually prooven to form up fleets / provide useful intel, they might get a bit more support or favourtism from CFC members. It’s very circumstantial and all theory.

      There’s tough restrictions on renters for good reason; because while we may be opening the doors to rentals and acknowledging the CFC cannot survive on moon goo alone, we want this to be done sensibly and with little risk to the CFC members as possible.

      August 23, 2013 at 11:03 am Reply
  8. Devore

    The renters of today is, for all intents and purposes, the vaunted Farms & Fields(tm). And given the sov system and mechanics, it’s the best approximation we’re going to get. People actually logging in, doing stuff in game, exposing themselves to risk, taking chance, and producing something of value that generates income to pay the bills. As opposed to an alliance paying people to log in.

    August 20, 2013 at 8:47 pm Reply
    1. Dinsdale Pirannha

      Only way that works is if CCP guts high sec industry, which is being announced at Gamescom in the next day or so. No way people will move to null sec and pay huge taxes to the RMT lords if they can work out of high sec and keep a larger percent of their labour.

      August 21, 2013 at 2:23 pm Reply
      1. Barkaway

        CCP wont gut high sec industri, the biggest lump of their players are in high sec so that would be suicide..

        August 21, 2013 at 4:36 pm Reply
      2. ---

        You really are a dumb fuck.

        August 21, 2013 at 4:58 pm Reply
      3. Devore

        No way? People are doing this today. You should take a look at the sov map and count how many regions are owned by renter alliances. Whatever they are doing in those systems, they prefer to do it in sov 0.0, rather than in hi sec, this should tell you something.

        August 22, 2013 at 12:37 am Reply
  9. Nobody

    Another problem with Riptard’s premise is that there’s only so much demand for renting, and the CFC has huge chunks of already unrented space. How much space will people rent? To be honest I’m kinda surprised by how much demand there is already, so maybe I’m all wet, but I can’t imagine some grand scheme to rent out most of null is going to be profitable.

    August 20, 2013 at 9:15 pm Reply
    1. Chuck Snorris

      As rediculous as it sounds it’s a “war for renters not a war for space” . That is the future hahahahaha. If a region is conquered the invading force will capture that rental income— or the renters assets are burned. Renters will just switch hats.

      August 20, 2013 at 10:56 pm Reply
  10. meh

    will we see a new shadow of goons bot alliance form up to rent cfc space?

    August 20, 2013 at 9:20 pm Reply
  11. Dinsdale Pirannha

    Sigh…People never learn.

    A few salient points:

    1. goons lie…They lie all the time. Do people seriously believe that they did not do an analysis before invading Fountain as to what income streams new moons would add? They are lowballing the value of moon goo big time, since they are well aware once they get the cartel control set again, the moon goo prices will rise.

    2. goons never make mention of the even larger income stream now online: the null sec ice belts that their bots can grind 6 times a day, and that dwarf the moon goon income.

    3. The idea of renting space was worked out long ago, when CCP/CSM worked out with the cartel leaders how much more wealth was being given to null sec with the subsequent nerfing of high sec industry and buffing of null sec industry, especially in the T2 mfg area. This will be announced at GamesCom in the next 24-72 hours. goons knew weeks ago how much more RMT income was being handed to them by their co-conspirators working inside CCP and on the CSM.

    The war to increase goon territory was based on all 3 points above, and goons are going to make damn sure that the true value of their new additional RMT streams are not known.

    August 21, 2013 at 5:03 am Reply
    1. Luwc

      you forgot the following about your theory :
      4. The goverment is run by snakelike aliens that can shape themselfes into humans
      just as legit as your points.

      August 21, 2013 at 7:41 am Reply
    2. N3 WarHQ

      8. ALSO THIS LATEST IN.. IN THE NEXT 26 – 78 HRS MITTANI WILL TELL EVERYONE THAT HIS A ALIEN AND WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD..

      August 21, 2013 at 1:17 pm Reply
    3. arkady

      I never thought I’d have cause to say this to anyone and mean it, but I do. You are pants on head retarded and I hope to God you are sterile so you can’t perpetuate your simian genes.

      August 21, 2013 at 1:30 pm Reply
    4. 2.4

      This guy honestly has a point.

      CCP does have a shady history when it comes to scandals.

      Lets not forget that the head of Internal Affairs is a top goon.

      Their RMT operations will be bigger then before.

      August 21, 2013 at 7:49 pm Reply
  12. God damn

    Why the fuck don’t YOU get off your lazy fat arses and go have large mining fleets or large fleets to eat or do plexes to generate the isk?

    It’s a joke Null is pretty much all rental space!

    August 21, 2013 at 11:17 am Reply
  13. Dontdoit

    Would never rent from goons they are just blatant scammers! Never ever trust them. Their scams will now come back and bite them in the arse

    August 21, 2013 at 11:19 am Reply
  14. Provistani

    I’m looking forward to the Goons first rental scheme. I have an AFK cloaky camper alt all ready to go.
    And if you hate Goons, you too can do your part to hurt Goons by cloaky-camping the shit out of their renters. All for very little effort and even less risk.
    What’s not to like?

    August 21, 2013 at 12:39 pm Reply
    1. Barkaway

      Well i hate goons, i really do, but i hate cloaky campers more so im gonna have to pass..

      August 21, 2013 at 4:24 pm Reply
    2. Lord Maghnus

      Here’s reality that the guys up high laugh at cloaky campers. even if you are in system people will rat. When you become active you’ll catch one of those guys and the rest safe up or whatever. There are thousands of ratters out there every hour, so it would take hundreds of cloaky pilots active every hour to stop it. Well guess what most want to play and aren’t will to give up every hour of their game day to do what you are suggesting. Which is why cloaky space interdictions have never had significant impact on alliances. but go ahead please waste your time I’ll enjoy every minute of it.

      August 23, 2013 at 4:20 am Reply
  15. CVA Grunt

    it goons make the renter space in the center`s of the different regions where thay are surrounded by the cfc sov holders ti might work out.

    August 21, 2013 at 3:39 pm Reply
  16. Thatguy

    Renters wont be part of the CFC unless they work hard to earn it.

    August 23, 2013 at 10:56 am Reply

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