I’d like to apologize for anyone expecting anything else other than a “free flowing off the cuff going the scenic route to get to the point” type article. You’ve been warned.

The Psychology of “True Elite” PvP

I’ve always been fascinated by the culture and mindset of the “elite pvp” alliances, clans, and entities through varying games that I’ve spent my time in both on the outside looking in and visa versa. What exactly made them successful and how they maintained that success has often been a subject of consideration for me. My first contact with this sort of “elite” type entity was in my earlier years playing MechWarrior 4 Mercenaries In the NBT League. There was this Clan that completely dominated the Mech scene for the longest time. Often there was no FC, their load outs were extremely specialized and specific and during their drops (matches) everyone knew exactly who to primary, where to shoot, which mech had to go down first, which way to move as a team. They were composed mostly of college students with a few teens, foul mouth, belligerent, and completely sure of themselves. During public matches they would completely dominate any sort of team on the opposing side and during league play if they lost 1 match out of 10 it was something of a surprise.

Through my time in the league I began dissecting each individual player, especially during pub matches where their team work was not as stressed as during game play. My only goal was to catch an individual pilot by himself and see what he does. What I came to find out was that individually these pilots weren’t the supermen people imagined. You could say they were above average, some even downright nigh invincible, but what really changed the context of the team was that they had no weak link. During the my early months of Meching, my own Clan itself was composed of a few players that were just as good if not better than their own. Indeed many members were veterans from the previous cycle when they had been the “top dog elite pvp curb stomping people left and right” clan before their burn out. Aside from the fact that you had weak links like new players such as myself there was also a key psychological factor at play. The “elite pvp” Clan also had a mind set advantage (hint, kind of the theme of the piece. Will also relate to Glevon’s article) where you literally had times when members of the opposing team would freeze out of sheer panic.

Indeed it was one of my fondest memories when after putting in a bit of work I too ended up being on the delivering side of said panic. There was nothing more satisfying than seeing said entity be turned to flight through our own contribution. But enough of my mech nostalgia and self serving chest beating. This does after all have to relate to Eve. But first to sort of do a bit of terminology, I differentiate between “elite pvp” and “true elite pvp” in the following manner.

The former are a bunch of try hards that rage when they fail, and the latter are a bunch of try hards that rage when they fail but get damn good results most of the time. It’s cool to act like “I wasn’t even trying when I did that” but anyone that is decent at anything in this game is so because of careful study of their fits, their enemies, tactics, logistics and so on and so forth. Don’t believe the hype.

The major Eve entities that really struck me in much the same as the aforementioned Clan, was of course Pandemic Legion. (inb4altaccussations) They’ve won a bunch of Eve tournaments, have more things in their hanger with the label “super” on it than Superman’s wardrobe and arguably the most disciplined and efficient logistical system in the Eve universe bar none. Hell, unless you are blue with PL you shape your entire capital warfare doctrine around the possibility of PL landing on grid. And sometimes even if you are blue PL will drop your capital, blow it up and pay you back for it just so they don’t sit on a Titan bridge for nothing.

The Importance of Being Earnest…errr Famous

All in all however, what is their biggest asset and more importantly, how do they attain and furthermore, maintain said asset. The answer is: reputation. It is perhaps the single most important thing because the more reputation an entity has the more loyalty, dedication and motivation your members will provide. Reputation ensures that you constantly have a large pool of capable people always interested in becoming part of your ranks. And let’s face it, it’s a pretty big ego boost to have PL by your name. People “become elite” simply by association. You don’t sit there worrying about growing or developing anything. You’re already a “made man.” How many people remember Makalu just plain shitting over fellow AAA members for going over to PL only to enthusiastically join in himself later on? Of course everyone saw a comical inconsistency in that decision and many people laughed about it. It’s still funny after all of the smack talking the guy produced. But at the end of the day you know what? If he doesn’t screw it up, he’s a “made man” he’s in the top tier of Eve and until someone knows PL off their pedestal there’s no where higher to go. You know what else? You’d have done the same thing. Sure when you are on the outside you complain about the overly zealous disproportionally sized capital fleet that just landed on your ratting Nyx. You call PL all sorts of names, call them crap, cheaters, whatever. But if you could be in their fleet you’d do the same thing and laugh at the victim ignoring his criticisms as nothing more than sweet savory delicious tears. At the end of the day everyone is a communist…until they win the lottery.

Reputation is such a powerful asset that for some entities it out ranks all other factors combined. I can give an example of a fairly small albeit very known entity where this is the case and how this looks like both from the outside and the inside where I still, God knows how, have eyes (shhh.) I won’t name names so we’ll refer to said entity as Big Bark and their CEO as Little Dog. When I joined Big Bark with my first character (not this one), not being familiar with said entity, there was this mystique, this perception that I was joining something, perhaps not on PL’s level due to lack of numbers and capital fleets, but something similar yet scaled down. There were tests, interviews, specific fits, standards, questionnaire after questionnaire, most of it fairly pointless and time consuming but it gave this image of professionalism and elitism. Being somewhat younger at the time, I remember being extremely quiet and respectful, to the point of ridiculousness. I was so proud of joining at the time because it felt like I had somehow become part of something where I was a “made man.”

The reality of things where quite different. All this internal propaganda sort of hypnotized the new people thinking they were special. In reality they let just about anyone in. The structure was parasitic. What I mean by this is that you had Little Dog and his circle of people that profited from the labor of the revolving door of membership. Any minor mistake was followed by severe and extreme verbal attack while any mistake Little Dog and his immediate group was played off as nothing major even if said mistake eclipsed the newer member’s by leaps and bounds. The only real way you could break out of the “lower caste” was to kiss enough ass that maybe, just maybe you were pulled into the inner circle. Worst of all I realized friends that I had in Eve were not nice enough to tell me that Big Bark was a corporation that was pretty much only respected among Empire industrial corps and alliances that had no clue about PvP, and that any serious small gang pvp entities sort of looked at Big Bark as a joke and the self delusional fantasy that Little Dog created it into.

It bored me terribly and was the single biggest waste of my Eve time. Not so much my second go with my 2nd character (no not this one either). I decided this time I would do the dance that was expected and climb a bit higher. Surely enough over the past months the structure didn’t much change. We recruited half decent pvpers from wherever. Any small mistake was trolled to mush, and any small accomplishment was touted as a major success and proof of our awesomeness. I tried to pull the curtain a bit further on the whole operation and what I found out was pretty sad. Little Dog is a pretty average dude with no major life accomplishments to speak of. At the time his living conditions were pretty crummy and there didn’t seem to be much of a life behind the screen. The anger, the trolling, the internal propaganda, they were all ways for said person to cope. It would of been sad but Little Dog’s sperging rage-a-thons made it pretty hilarious I won’t lie. To give an example at the end of the day you feel bad for the kid that is abused at home, but it doesn’t make his bullying at school anymore excusable.

All in all reputation was still the central factor at play here. Little Dog has managed not only to trick himself into believing this fantasy of “elite pvp” but the sycophants around him as well. There’s a sizable pool of ex-Big Bark members who could tell you about their experience and roll their eyes at the whole affair. The “reputation” factor acted as an anesthetic both to the Eve “realities”, no Big Bark was not some leet small gang pvp group, rather just a glorified pos removal entity, and perhaps real life issues as well. Although many serious pvp corps know Big Bark is a joke, you still have a large group of non pvp entities that would certainly disagree. In effect you have the 5th graded at school that takes Tae Kwon Do classes and impresses all the 4th graders while all the upper classmen just roll their eyes, yet the 4th graders persist in propping up this fantasy that is obvious to everyone else. But you know what? It works for them. By all accounts Big Bark is a successful alliance, and Little Dog is seen as some pioneering and capable leader by said 4th graders. It’s human nature. This is how Miley Cyrus makes millions while few have probably heard of Lana Del Rey.

Now taking into account this example and how reputation can make a fairly irrelevant alliance seem competent, we take that and apply it to an actually good pvp entity such as Pandemic Legion. The results are going to be compounded obviously. But by what manner did Pandemic Legion attain its reputation? Perhaps there is no single time that we can point to specifically. Perhaps there were several instances that this reputation accrued. What I can point to is the over all strategy Pandemic Legion follows.

For those that don’t know a strategy is an over all method of achieving macro goals. So hitting CFC tech moons is an example of a strategy. Using Webs and blap dreads to kill response fleets is a tactic. The more you know…anyway

The PL strategy has always been to bet on the winning horse, or at least bet on a horse that although by itself it will come in a close 2nd, if properly lead, will win. Or worst case scenario, they don’t invest fully into a cause that won’t profit them (See Fountain War.) This isn’t a criticism. Eve is no place for high ideals and internet spaceship honor. Eve is a cut throat circle of life experiment where the baboon drop kicks Simba off that cliff. There is absolutely nothing wrong with aligning yourself with entities that help you survive and reach your goals. You want to die on your sword? Ask Morsus Mihi and Majesta Empire how that ended up for them. Even though I can attest to MM’s pvp prowess from first hand experience (yeah Delve Thunderdome!) they played the meta game wrong.

PL’s meta strategy of aligning with strong entities or even not holding sov directly has helped create an image of nigh invincibility. Something should be said about not holding sov and “Didn’t want that sov anyway.” People who say that are full of complete shit. They may not want to deal with the hassle of managing sov or defending it, but everyone wants sov. You plant some serfs there to work the land and it’s easy passive income. Now you may say “But PL has a renter alliance!!!” This is true, but if that territory is lost, they can always fall back to “Didn’t want that anyway” which is an important internal propaganda more so than external one. Sov works as a meterstick to judge how well or poorly an alliance is doing in a conflict. If you take away that meterstick you don’t really know, and if said entity is consistently aligning itself with “the winning horse” you create a strong reputation. That is not to say PL is bad at PvP simply because they choose to fight on their terms. It’s a very smart thing and I wouldn’t fault PL or consider their PvP capabilities negatively anymore than I would for a prize fighter that moves out of the way of the punch rather than taking them on the chin. PL may not be as good as they would have you believe…but they’re still better than you.

The “Other” Legion

I first picked up Black Legion on the radar a few years back when I heard them flying fleets of a fugly looking Minmatar Attack Cruiser. They always seemed fresh and energetic, albeit somewhat aimless and I knew of many PL pilots that also had BL alts. Sometime around the summer of 2012 we got word that PL/BL relations were starting to sour and to pick a side and stick with it. I found it quite telling that most of the people I knew said goodbye to BL and stayed firmly in the PL camp. Not everyone was this way but I would say the overwhelming majority was. I would say this was due to PL’s stability and the fact that they survived the test of time. They had thicker roots and were already a presence. While BL had been harassing northern residence for a while if you look back even as recently as 2010 many of their fleets were quite small.

I would say they really broke into the scene during the Tribute War (CFC vs Dotbros) where Elo Knight was an instrumental FC and giving Dotbros victories on the battlefield that sadly did not translate to the shift in the lines on the map. The BL of today is a far cry. Where they used to boast Munnin fleets, now they drop full dread fleets on their targets. While not quite up to par with PL’s level of “drop-5,000-supers-on-anything-that-moves” Elo Knight is still a very capable and energetic FC which contributes to the reputation of BL. Even the CFC which have been by far the most consistent victims of BL for most of this year, begrudgingly tip their hat off to him. And while surely this FC’s capabilities and reputation strengthen BL, the fact that he’s really the only one on the poster is surely a weakness. It reminds me of Atlas a bit. Once Bobby Atlas was gone, what was left? Like wise could be argued for BL in the most pessimistic scenario.

Regardless of what may or may not be, for now the guy is present and he keeps his pilots interested enough that they’ll gladly sit on a bridge for hours and hours if called for, and won’t gripe too much if the fleet is dismissed if the engagement would prove too disfavorable. The average line pilot can’t be said to be much different than anyone else’s. You fleet up, orbit anchor, F1. However when you do that under a capable FC, and he provides you victories, this furthers your image both internally and externally of “true elite pvp.”

Legion Feud?

The growing rivalry between these two entities is extremely interesting to me. They both seem fearful to fully commit to hitting the other in case they lose their balance and the other counter attacks. This is not something to laugh at. I believe fear can be a good thing. It’s good that you’re afraid of walking into traffic it keeps you alive. And both entities are rightful to fear the other. The top of the pyramid doesn’t have so much standing room after all. The biggest spark between the two would have to be the Revenant kill that BL managed to snag at the expense of PL. While infuriating to a certain PL member it does not amount to much more than a personal loss to a single pilot of an over priced underpar ship that had no business being where it was. Although a great ambush by all accounts, it did not really harm PL’s reputation although it certainly provided BL solid crystal rocks of smug to smoke.

It will be interesting to see how PL decides to retaliate and how. The two entities do not seem to be hitting each other directly but instead pick at things near and around the other’s watering hole. Such a conflict will not happen until the dust has settled from the last war so much that it lets each side know who is siding with who. Although BL proved useful to the CFC during the Fountain War, they are still a destructive entity in the north. PL may have “betrayed” their OTEC partners, but they seem much more manageable to work with in the long term. Without either alliance providing the other one a solid meter stick to measure success or failure it’s quite possible that both entities will simply talk a big game at each other but never really take the risk to go all in. Considering what is on the line this may prove a smarter, although somewhat boring move. People shouldn’t judge. After all you wouldn’t want to be in a knife fight in a crowded elevator either. However PL should consider that the SP count on BL’s line members is growing by the day and unless they mind sharing the spot light, a decisive blow will need to be struck. In the world of “true elite pvp” any small falter can be taken as a major blow to reputation and when that is the single most unifying factor, it can be detrimental.

Shifting Culture, Shifting Sov, The CFC and TEST

During the southern war against AAA, I remember TEST flying through Catch advertising that if they flipped to TEST they would be able to rat for free in Fountain as opposed to paying rent to AAA. Unsurprisingly, considering the way the war was going for the “Southern Coalition” many shifted to the other side. It’s only human nature and even in our history people generally did not care who ruled them so long as their day to day life was not for the worse. What was surprising at the time, although probably should not be, is that after a while said members were put into a renter program. So after so much time in bad mouthing AAA’s renter program as evil evil space feudalism, TEST’s idealism hit the solid side of reality and they had to adapt.

Now the CFC seems to be following the same story, and truth is, their empire has expanded to the point where there aren’t enough people to profit from all the territory. Bringing in renters will help alleviate that. It seems Fountain did not have enough moons to pay the bills. In any case what this shows is both a cultural and territorial shift. If the north is not as valuable as it once was we may very well see the CFC shifting evermore westward displacing all of TEST and Tribal from their holdings and perhaps even Northern CoalitionDOT from their place in Querious. It is interesting to see what other ideals the CFC will shed in order to adapt to their desires.

A point for Glevon Goblin to consider

I liked your article concerning the two different type of TEST players but I would argue that TEST needs both types. While I dislike the “lol let’s go fly armor fit drakes with neuts 4 da lulz” group as much as you do, it’s quite possible that TEST needs them too. Let me explain why. The people in an entity who promote the idea “didn’t want that anyway” or “we aren’t even trying” helps to alleviate the pressure of the alliance. It’s a bit like good cop bad cop. You need the guys that will try to get TEST into shape and be a respectable pvp entity. But you also need the guys that don’t take it that seriously for whenever TEST does fail. TEST right now is not in the place where it has too many capable FCs or that great of a logistics arm. They’re a pampered fat baby that’s just been punted out of the crib by daddy Goon and just now they’re figuring out how Eve is without knowing that you have Eve’s most powerful coalition to come solve your problems when you’ve engaged in a war without all the know how on how to win it.

Perhaps the biggest mistake right now is that TEST is trying to graduate from not really having all that much experience running its own fleets, to suddenly running massive fleets all by itself. In the past external entities such as PL have acted as their FCs. This is why my original suggestion was that now with the war lost, TEST needs to focus and deploy on a squad basis and build up its small gang pvp. Out of that you get FCs who can then learn how to lead bigger and bigger fleets. And throughout that entire presence you need hardass pvp guys that yell at you for screwing up, but you also need the laid back types that take the stress off. Getting rid of the laid back crowd while trying to run huge fleets is just going to make TEST into a bunch of incapable try hards and destroy the alliance. Booda can’t suddenly favor one position over the other and his refusal to just kick half of TEST in favor of the other is not doing “nothing.” Time will tell if he truly is a capable leader and how well he can promote TEST’s reputation internally. Hey if Little Dog can trick himself into thinking his corp matters, TEST can too, and with some actual small gang pvp, FCs will rise and that fantasy can become reality.

- Seraph IX Basarab

78 Comments

  1. Jesus Loves You

    What the hell did I just read.

    It reads like your are a little PL fanboi who doesn’t realize that the days of PL are OVER.

    USA USA USA, BL >>>>> PL. Deal with it.

    August 12, 2013 at 10:57 am Reply
    1. Darling Joe

      Who just won the alliance tourny? Can you expect anyone to be superactive (no pun intended) while doing that?

      August 12, 2013 at 1:12 pm Reply
      1. daniL

        And who won the tournament before that? The one that had cash price?

        Are they elit pvp-ers ? :)

        August 12, 2013 at 5:54 pm Reply
  2. DS

    Pretty sure you know of Black Legion only from what you’ve read here. Elo Knight, while the chillest dude in Eve, is not the only talented FC in the alliance. Though a lot of the talent in BL is due to his guidance. Also, pretty sure BL don’t give one flying muninn fuck about PL in the long run or about being “afraid” of them.

    August 12, 2013 at 11:04 am Reply
    1. Realist

      sounds like you have the Elo dick quite deep in your anus.

      August 12, 2013 at 11:42 am Reply
      1. DS

        There’s worse dicks in Eve to sit on, you mad or just jelly?

        August 13, 2013 at 3:09 am Reply
    2. TiredOfAllTheStupid

      Nobody is afraid of PL anymore, unless of course they’re flying a ratting carrier.

      August 12, 2013 at 5:34 pm Reply
    3. Seraph IX Basarab

      I know there are other talented FCs and in my past articles, specifically ones dealing with the dotbrosTribute War, I stated that. My point was referring to the reputation aspect of the matter.

      August 12, 2013 at 9:21 pm Reply
      1. DS

        I understand the reputation aspect is what your focusing on but I’ve never heard of BL being afraid of anyone based on reputation or refusing to engage a fleet due to that mindset. So I don’t understand where the BL being afraid of PL side of the post comes into play.

        August 13, 2013 at 3:08 am Reply
        1. Seraph IX Basarab

          I don’t see BL going directly after PL in any meaningful way.

          August 13, 2013 at 4:09 am Reply
          1. Jakes

            They have been, BL attacks PL, and PL doesn’t do anything to BL. You could make an argument that it’s hard to do anything to a NPC null alliance, but that not really true, the truth is it’s not worth the headaches and isk to attack BL, so PL just ignores them and calls then “not relevent” true story. FFS if your going to write about something do your homework.

            August 13, 2013 at 3:46 pm
          2. Seraph IX Basarab

            Don’t get upset I don’t sing your praises. Aside from the Rev gank in what way has BL been going after PL?

            August 13, 2013 at 5:25 pm
  3. Starfleetcommander

    So this post it’s just about. Pl and bl and how “elite” they are

    August 12, 2013 at 11:23 am Reply
  4. none

    there arent any elite pvp corps/allaince now, they all pretend to be, infact they are all F1 pushers

    August 12, 2013 at 11:39 am Reply
    1. Darling Joe

      There’s still Rooks and Kings doing crazy stuff, and when they’re doing a pipebomb they at least have to press all the way to F8.

      August 12, 2013 at 11:55 am Reply
      1. Kamar Raimo

        I would say Rooks & Kings definitely qualifies as “true elite pvp”.
        They don’t fly around in massive blobs, they come up with some new crazy tactic every few months and then have the balls to make a video about it as if saying “ï want to see you pull that one off” and they don’t even shit up forums with their smug, they just kill creatively and effectively.
        Are they relevant in the big political game? Not really. The biggest waves they ever made was back when they fought AHARM, and AHARM are wormhole guys so they don’t really matter in the political game.
        Still, every once in a while you will hear “ïn other news” that R&K annihilated some fleet in transit.
        Also, in not one of their videos I ever heard someone rage or freak out or even get overly emotional about winning, and you never hear about R&K drama.
        I might sound like a fanboy here. I’m not really, but I do think that those guys are absolute professionals like some special forces team.

        August 13, 2013 at 12:34 am Reply
      2. lol

        R&K aren’t “elite pvp.”

        I can’t even remember a time they fought someone decent or fought a “good fight.” Blobbing bads isn’t good.

        August 15, 2013 at 5:54 am Reply
    2. TiredOfAllTheStupid

      There are some, but many who claim to be elite pvpers just say they are without much action to back it up.

      N3, while better at the PVP than some alliances, are not exactly “elite” PVPers so much as “not your usual” PVPers.

      August 12, 2013 at 5:36 pm Reply
    3. na

      So what happened to all the f1 pushers that fought cfc, occasionally out numbering their foe. ” you still have to fly your ship” join ping, fleet up in correct ship /w mods, align, listen, warp, f1. If it was that easy why don’t hi sec pop along and take some sov..

      August 14, 2013 at 12:24 am Reply
  5. herp

    its “Vice Versa”. learn Latin before you post it.

    August 12, 2013 at 11:55 am Reply
  6. Name

    “…but everyone wants sov.” Hence the vapid mindset that allows you to rationalize your continued waste of money on Miley Cyrus paraphernalia.

    August 12, 2013 at 12:17 pm Reply
  7. "target" is primary

    All of Querious by the end of september.
    Make it happen. Go!

    August 12, 2013 at 2:16 pm Reply
  8. Velvet

    Some very valid points about the psychology behind what makes an elite pvp group appears to be such to the average player.

    August 12, 2013 at 2:18 pm Reply
  9. Marcus

    PL isn’t really a top tier alliance anymore, pretty much stopped being one when shamis stepped down. Most of the guys that made PL great have went inactive, or left.

    August 12, 2013 at 3:26 pm Reply
    1. Inlighten me

      Yep, and PL has been filled up with coward mode scrubs from alliances they have beat in the past that just don’t want to get beat up on anymore.

      August 12, 2013 at 4:24 pm Reply
      1. FormerTESTbro

        Agreed. They are risk averse and are just running out their brand name. The association with the brand “PL” being a PVP powerhouse is still strong…but as people pointed out. All they do is join the winning side at the end and trash talk the losers.

        The are also one of the most detrimental entities to have as an ally, just ask anyone in TEST that isn’t sucking PL dick to get into PL. Oh wait, don’t ask then they are to dumb to realize then someone had their dick balls deep in their ass.

        August 12, 2013 at 7:17 pm Reply
  10. Provi Miner

    my own dam fault, should have stopped at mechwarrior. Who cares, neither pl nor bl are worth worrying about. They are a tornadoe if you worry about it you won’t get anything done, if you just do your thing and you get hit oh well its not like you have a limited number of med clones. Re-ship and start it again. But sometimes you get it right, see shadoo at eve con “we lost a black ops fleet in provi” -7- FTW

    August 12, 2013 at 4:05 pm Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      While -7- is a cool and they always bring out ships to defend the gates of Providence, you can’t really compare them with PL or consider some fluke victory as anything more than just that. When people consider dropping supers, nobody stops and says “wait what if Severence gets us.”

      August 12, 2013 at 9:39 pm Reply
  11. bigbonedbobby

    alliances who are very similiar usually want to avoid fighting eachother unless one part is weakened for some reason.
    Its usually better to fight a larger aliance thats has sov if your a nomadic pvp alliance..trading size for speed.

    I would love if someone actually hired PL or BL to hit the other party…it would then make some really weird action go down since they both can relocate and are flexible…but i dont see it happening.

    Test lost the war,every nullsec alliance have lost at some point.
    They need to return to their roots…and fast…or they will decline until they are dead.

    And PL and BL both deserve the reputation its not just all fables and herp derp…if have ever fought them you know they have acted fast on risky situations to capitalize on misstakes form the enemy.

    Its basicly the only thing that makes them different then other alliances that are slow as a retarded slug on acting and adapting.
    Determination is NOT a counter to this…but manny ex now disbanded alliances thought it was.

    August 12, 2013 at 4:17 pm Reply
    1. lulz

      BL has hit many PL dread, and super fleets over the last year. PL hasn’t really done anything to BL despite having no less then 6 BL spies. lol…

      August 12, 2013 at 4:20 pm Reply
      1. All in time

        Sometimes things take a while to happen in EVE. Elo not BL (bl is literally useless without him as an FC) times his attacks fairly well, but like all people will succumb to hubris and eventually over extend himself and his head will be chopped off, BL has one fatal problem, income. they lose a cap fleet it wont be coming back for a while

        August 13, 2013 at 1:48 am Reply
        1. Cool story bro

          You don’t need dreads to kill supers, BL has been proving that for years. Yeah now that they have a decent dread fleet they can do damage to enemy super fleets, but you don’t need dreads to kill supers.

          August 13, 2013 at 3:39 pm Reply
        2. na

          BL have received quite a few merc contracts and a cap srp. So stfu as you clearly haven’t a clue. BL don’t blue all and sundry to survive. They survive by harvesting tears and your fear. From checking their killboards any tz plus 100 dudes and even know several fcs. And guess what PL know that as well?

          August 14, 2013 at 12:12 am Reply
    2. daniL

      “Test lost the war,every nullsec alliance have lost at some point.
      They need to return to their roots…and fast…or they will decline until they are dead.”

      What roots ?
      The top of the game for Test was being the meat shield for PL! The end game….
      They were nothing before that…, just another few numbers in the Goon’s empire!
      They are nothing now!
      The players in Test that had no yet reached there end game are leaving, or already left :D

      It did amaze me to see that there was something lower the TEST. IT was Test pets like Tribal Band

      August 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm Reply
  12. daniL

    Test and small scale pvp :) Even if I see it I wont believe it
    The author is giving test an interesting advice, but maybe his thoughts about elitism, blinded him from the point that the coin has two sides!

    One side being the big bad Wolfs (elites) the other side are the sheep…

    As the author point out, all this stuff about elite pvp-ers is based on “fears” and “reputation” :)

    So in order for the ELITe to exists, we need someone to fear them and to pad there reputation :)

    I had lived around Test Alliance for the last two years and my view of them is: sheeps!
    Don’t get me wrong, there have been some nice dudes to fight with… all of then left or were forced to leave, as they did not fit the picture!

    August 12, 2013 at 4:58 pm Reply
  13. Fletch

    PL are living on past reputation. They always pick the winning side to play on and run a mile when things turn south.
    They do have a huge supercap fleet but for the most part they never do anything but fishing fleets and basic griefing IE camping beacons, hot dropping ratters and gate crashing a low sec brawl.

    BL on the other hand are what the old PL used to be. They are not afraid of the other PvP heavy entities and will fight anyone.

    August 12, 2013 at 5:01 pm Reply
    1. Cloora

      And we also win Alliance Tournaments. :smug:

      August 12, 2013 at 11:03 pm Reply
      1. Shadoo

        Meta gaming by knowing exactly what your opponent will field, is this really what we call “being the best alliance in Eve?”

        August 13, 2013 at 2:44 am Reply
        1. herp

          Yeah. Sand Box. Realism.

          August 13, 2013 at 4:07 am Reply
        2. Cloora

          Since this is the exact same thing that happens in null sec bloc PvP (which the real Shadoo would know) then yes.

          August 13, 2013 at 4:45 pm Reply
    2. anonymous

      The reason you don’t see them doing much but fishing is because everyone is afraid of their supers and will never engage them straight up because it would be suicide. From several regions and midpoints away they scared razor out of dropping supers on BL simply by logging in

      August 13, 2013 at 3:58 pm Reply
    3. heh

      No, PL have always worked with Goons(Northern Coalition, Deklen Coalition, CFC, HBC, etc) aka the biggest coalitions in EVE, ever.

      NCdot has been the premier alliance for about 2 years now. Black Legion is doing pretty good for about last 2 months.

      August 15, 2013 at 5:47 am Reply
  14. Delta.Al512

    No mention of Rooks and Kings, Rote Kapelle, Verge of Collapse, Tuskers…. (the list goes on).

    While they are by in large not nullsec entities, I am surprised you dont draw the contrast between the reputation gained in null vs lowsec/wormhole. Or the SP:ISK ratio.

    August 13, 2013 at 2:32 am Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      The reason those entities are unmentioned is because politically for the most part they are irrelevant. I am not saying they are not good at pvp, simply it doesn’t matter if they are or are not. They’re sort of like the kung fu master in his monestary on the mountain. He can make your heart explode with one punch but unless he comes down and gets involved in the affairs of this and that dynasty, it largely doesn’t matter.

      August 13, 2013 at 2:43 am Reply
      1. Darling Joe

        still, death by rnk pipebomb was probably more on fleet mind than death by Test, in Fountain.

        August 13, 2013 at 8:50 am Reply
      2. mellyra

        Why no mention of NCdot?

        they are the entity most closely comparable to PL in terms of size & capabilities and it is a running joke that everyone whose PL application is rejected ends up in NCdot.

        Black Legion is much smaller and has a different (less serious, more swagger – muninns for life) playstyle, whereas PL and NCdot are direct rivals.

        August 13, 2013 at 10:31 am Reply
        1. sssss

          For being direct rivals PL and NCdot are are awefully cozy.

          August 13, 2013 at 2:30 pm Reply
          1. Reading is hard

            Nobody mentioned the word rivals in the post you replied to, or in the OP.

            August 13, 2013 at 3:33 pm
        2. Simon

          Because he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about.

          August 13, 2013 at 3:31 pm Reply
        3. Cloora

          Rivals? We are blue 4 lyfe

          August 13, 2013 at 4:46 pm Reply
          1. mellyra

            My best friend in high-school was also my biggest rival. I didn’t try to kill him.

            August 13, 2013 at 4:53 pm
          2. Cloora

            Horrible analogy. Did you try to defeat him in competition? Was he on your team? Was it a team based sport? Really dude lrn2analogy no one is trying to kill anyone. Its a game retard.

            August 13, 2013 at 5:48 pm
          3. Fun with Words

            Best friend and homosexual lover DO NOT mean the same thing.

            August 15, 2013 at 6:45 am
        4. Barkaway

          havent you heard, pl doesnt turn anyone down these days, i know a few that are in pl and they are no where near elite^^
          And no PL and NCdot arent rivals, they are close friends.

          August 13, 2013 at 5:22 pm Reply
          1. Cloora

            I got into PL, so that shows how their current recruitment standards are. All I had to do was draw a pretty picture and put some :effort: into it. Oh and not be an obvious spy or be annoying on comms (but we have BlueMajere so I guess that’s not even a requirement). That’s about it.

            August 13, 2013 at 5:50 pm
        5. Seraph IX Basarab

          Well most of the piece was concerning reputation. While NCdot is in the top 5 of major 0.0 entities, they don’t really carry that infamy and reputation that PL has or that BL is acquiring in a way also. So even though capability wise they may be similar, they aren’t comparable on a reputation level. Even when the dotbros Tribute war was happening and BL and NCdot were on the same side, they looked like two clearly different animals.

          August 13, 2013 at 5:27 pm Reply
    2. lol

      They are low sec fags that never usually give “good fights” and never win against actual good people.

      They are fucking relevant because they blow. Totally better than CFC and the other shit, but they are still not good.

      August 15, 2013 at 5:50 am Reply
  15. Skipper

    Is this the same seraph that has predicted a Goon loss in the last three wars? Yes?
    I’ll skip reading it then.

    August 13, 2013 at 5:25 pm Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      I’ve never predicted anything. I simply laid out possibilities if certain things happened. Reading is your friend.

      August 13, 2013 at 5:28 pm Reply
      1. Barkaway

        No i really dont think him and reading are friends^^

        August 13, 2013 at 5:33 pm Reply
      2. Infinite Improbability Drive

        I’m going to lay out some possibilities right now.
        If, someday a dog takes your theories and bites them in a certain way, and then a monkey takes it and wipes his bum with it in a certain way, and then a robin litters her nest with it in a certain way, and finally a child finds it and scribbles on it with a huge brown crayon (in a certain way, of course), THEN, some of your “possibilities” may come true.
        Keep fishing bitch. The skipper is always right.

        August 13, 2013 at 7:21 pm Reply
        1. Seraph IX Basarab

          The only reason to get this upset over an opinion piece is because you have some anger issues. I’m sorry I made you feel that way and I hope you feel better.

          August 13, 2013 at 7:29 pm Reply
          1. ANGRAY

            OH LORDY PLEASE! DON’TS CALL OUTS MY ANGUH ISSUES!
            Hold your apologies, the only one upset is you.
            And you should be! One would think that at least one of the “articles” you have written would be correct. But no, that hasn’t happened.
            Your article is shite, your snippy little backbiting comments to those who point it out are shite, perhaps your entire existence is shite.
            I don’t know about that, but I’m sure I won’t be wasting any more time on this.

            August 13, 2013 at 7:38 pm
          2. Seraph IX Basarab

            You sure? Because you’re doing a good job of it so far. Won’t you go on? I need to know more about what you think.

            August 13, 2013 at 7:46 pm
  16. Pewnin Munnin

    The part where you talked about “Big Bark” and “Little Dog” sounds really similar to my experience in Noir Mercenary Group. Same exact type crap, same exact type of CEO, and the only people who actually think they are good at pvp is pve/industrial corps with no pvp experience of their own. Was just glad they managed to trick Black Legion into thinking they were any good long enough for me to hop ship to an actually competent pvp outfit.

    August 13, 2013 at 7:20 pm Reply
    1. Alwayslaughahaha

      Pretty funny you say that because the author was in noir for a bit hahaha!

      August 13, 2013 at 8:19 pm Reply
      1. srs mercenary outfit here guys

        Wouldn’t be surprising since the description is spot on.

        August 13, 2013 at 9:24 pm Reply
        1. grim peeper

          confirming alek is a delusional cock bag with a god complex

          August 14, 2013 at 3:53 am Reply
    2. Nicer in BL

      Yeah Noir got da-boot from BL cause Alek was a delusional self important prick and his corp couldn’t cut it. All smart people left then and there.

      August 15, 2013 at 3:26 pm Reply
  17. PLgrunt

    ‘At the end of the day everyone is a communist…until they win the lottery…’

    Yea you are obviously not a PL alt .. it is more like a retirement home for trolls.. comparing it to winning the lottery would be like spraying shit gold and selling it on a street corner.

    August 13, 2013 at 9:49 pm Reply
    1. yarp

      I’m not sure you got the expression…

      August 13, 2013 at 10:17 pm Reply
  18. shitarticle

    Long-winded shitpost, well-done.
    PL and BL aren’t top-tier PvPers, and they never will be.
    Yeah, they get results, but that’s the only thing they do.
    They don’t PvP with skill or flair, like say, R&K or HYDRA/Genos.

    August 15, 2013 at 12:09 am Reply
    1. shitpost

      so how many pieces of flair are you wearing?

      August 15, 2013 at 12:21 am Reply
    2. hummmm???

      When was the last time any of those entities did anything relevant in 0.0 wars?

      August 15, 2013 at 7:40 am Reply
  19. Bo Daggett

    I’m gonna print this out. Seriously, I need something to wipe my ass with.

    August 15, 2013 at 6:41 am Reply
    1. HUURRRR

      Your butt might get a little wet from all your tears

      August 15, 2013 at 7:39 am Reply
      1. Bo Daggett

        Why would I be crying again? I don’t get teary eyed when losers come to this forum and sperg about “The One True PVP!!!!”.
        Usually I just smirk about he silliness of it all and go the next one.
        This one is special though. I saw it and just knew I needed to wipe the shit off my ass with it! I could envision it in my mind, all crumpled up, fresh shit glistening from the bad lighting in my bathroom…it was breathtaking!
        I can’t wait for the next edition. I think I’ll have chili tonight.

        August 15, 2013 at 5:41 pm Reply
  20. Ok?

    You should try titling your article correctly. Because all I see is bla bla bla suck on PL and BL’s dick, while talking about goons and test for a moment.

    IF you are going to talk about things, talk about things people don’t already know. This crap is getting old. Do yourself a favor and anything about PL, Goons and Test, just stop writing about it. Actually come up with something for once that isn’t pulled out of your ass.

    August 17, 2013 at 9:25 pm Reply

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