In nullsec frigroams are considered “fun” and “PvP experience” is required to join. I’m in nullsec with zero frigroams behind me and no FC ever complained on my performance in fleets. Seems, someone is wrong. Instead of pointing fingers, let me look this problem on a different perspective. Actually on the perspective on two different perspectives.

The competitive people are sorting things as “PvP” and “PvE”. The decision is made on “attempting to gain dominance over other person”. The objective-oriented person is sorting things as “effective” and “waste of time”, based on reaching their goal or not. The two are not opposites, rather speaking in different languages. Let me give some examples:

Getting ISK: for a competitive person, that’s a boring grind, a chore needs to be done. For an objective-oriented person it’s an accomplishment which he does with involvement and effort.

Ganking: for a competitive person that’s a dumb activity, since it only proves that a Catalyst is stronger than a mining barge, regardless of player skill. If an objective oriented person wants to climb the killboard, this is a rewarding and involving activity.

Frigate PvP: for a competitive person, it’s an involving activity since frigates are the fastest, demanding the best player reactions. For an objective oriented person – unless he flies in alliance tournament – it’s a big waste of time as the losses and gains are trivial.

PvP roams: a competitive person finds much fun in it, since not only he wins in PvP but does so with friends. For an objective oriented one, it’s a waste of time as killing random targets have no gain.

Strategic operations: for both of them it’s rewarding, for different reasons. For a competitive one – like a roam – it’s an opportunity to dominate another group with his friends, while an objective oriented receives a direct objective: the system/station/POS ownership
The last point is important, because unlike all previous ones, they agree on it. Without it, they would be two opposing groups. However this point allows them to coexist in the same group.

However to do so, they must understand each other and it’s missing now. A competitive group typically demand “PvP experience”: killboard history. Since the player couldn’t participate in startegic fleets in highsec, it is equal to demand him roams and small-ship PvP what he hates. This demand isn’t “evil”, just self-centered, assuming that if someone didn’t like roams, he will surely hate large fleets, therefore he won’t show up.

In an imaginary “carebear alliance” probably a stable of doctrine ships would be demanded and poor roamers would be dismissed as “he won’t have the ship and won’t show up in structure-only fleets”. Which is similarly not true.

This is a problem for me, because I could never get the requested “PvP experience”, but – unlike the PvP-ers would predict, I perform on strategic fleets without problems. I’m sure there are many-many people in highsec who could very well fit in nullsec alliances, but don’t get a chance to get there due to being gated by small-ship PvP.

– Gevlon Goblin


  1. Dirty Rotten Sneaky Bastard

    TBTHBTHBTHBTH Goblin…. In your opinion, nullsec should be as safe as hisec. Small gang PvP should not exist. Well, in my opinion, you should not exist. This game is a sandbox where everyone can play their own way. If you don’t like the true freedom of the sandbox, then go back to WoW… Or maybe “My Little Pony” is more your speed.

    July 23, 2013 at 11:52 pm Reply
    1. Dikreathz

      my little pony rules!

      July 24, 2013 at 3:28 pm Reply
  2. Duh

    greedy goblin please stop posting

    July 24, 2013 at 12:26 am Reply
  3. wilson

    Up and down with this guy…

    July 24, 2013 at 12:32 am Reply
  4. That Guy

    Some people value individual pilot skill in fleets, it makes a massive difference knowing how to influence a fight while a block level FC is flat out holding your hand.

    July 24, 2013 at 12:35 am Reply
  5. 0z0ned

    Most people have a filter that stops them spewing every thought that enters their head. With professional help, you may find yours GG.

    July 24, 2013 at 12:37 am Reply
    1. Ace

      It won’t help. He’ll write about it, and still get crucified for it.

      July 24, 2013 at 6:15 am Reply
  6. pew pew

    Ignore the haters, this is a good read

    July 24, 2013 at 12:55 am Reply
    1. Dirty Rotten Sneaky Bastard

      And you’re an idiot.

      July 24, 2013 at 1:18 am Reply
      1. niko

        While your intelligent observation situates you so much higher….

        July 24, 2013 at 1:46 am Reply
        1. John Selth

          And your reply to his observation definitely puts you on the levels of a scholar

          July 24, 2013 at 1:55 am Reply
          1. Dikreathz

            what john smith taken?

            July 24, 2013 at 3:27 pm
        2. Dirty Rotten Sneaky Bastard

          Anyone who thinks that Goblins pro-amusement park stance would be good for a sandbox game IS an idiot. That amusement park bit is what makes WoW suck balls. It would destroy all that Eve is. Sorry to burst Goblin, Pew Pew, and apparently “Lollipop” Niko’s bubbles here, but the very basis of Eve is “Fuck up you neighbors’ day”. And if you don’t like that concept then you are playing the wrong game.

          July 24, 2013 at 6:37 am Reply
  7. Dekk

    I don’t understand why would keep putting out content to a video game community that neither values your opinion, nor respects it. I write for a living, if I turned in this amount of ill-received content my editor would at least switch my beat. Start a nature blog or something.

    July 24, 2013 at 12:59 am Reply
  8. wtb GlevonGoblin post blocker

    wtb GlevonGoblin post blocker already.
    wtb GlevonGoblin post blocker already.
    wtb GlevonGoblin post blocker already.
    wtb GlevonGoblin post blocker already.
    wtb GlevonGoblin post blocker already.
    wtb GlevonGoblin post blocker already.

    July 24, 2013 at 1:02 am Reply
  9. riv lied

    This post should have been titled, “This is Shit even highsec ice miners already know about null sec.”

    On a different note, what ever happened to no more goblin riv, still selling out your readers for money?

    July 24, 2013 at 1:09 am Reply
  10. Informer

    Perhaps some people now have a clearer picture of what’s wrong with “that alliance” lately.

    On the other hand I’m giggling like a school girl because I’m absolutely certain mr. Goblin has no idea what the cause of the… let’s call it discussion of his article is and suspects it being enemy warfare propaganda. Because the obvious reason never figures in his mind. Ever.

    July 24, 2013 at 1:10 am Reply
  11. John Masters

    Your observations are valid, but the first paragraph muddies it up by being unfocused and unclear.
    Learn to “Write the lead” or get an editor to do it for you. A one-sentence synopsis preparing the reader by giving them a point of reference.
    Honest, good opinions, not great writing. Clean it up and for God’s sake read it before you post it.

    July 24, 2013 at 1:10 am Reply
  12. Ackilles_Shadowfire

    Some of the observations are valid, and you make a good point as to different playstyles.

    However, saying that you are fully capable of flying in a large strategic fleet like it is an achievement left me completely and utterly shocked. Outside of the FC and to a small extent the scouts, the level of skill required to fly in large fleets is nearly 0. Do you know how to target something? Do you know how to jump through a stargate? Do you know how to click your modules? If you answered yes to the last three then you are still trash for clicking your modules rather than using hot-keys. However, you are still fully functional in almost any fleet over 20 people and most under 20 as well.

    July 24, 2013 at 1:31 am Reply
  13. Credacom

    Really really poor article. This level of quality makes me think I could write.

    July 24, 2013 at 3:00 am Reply
    1. Darth Nefarius

      So write then. You remind me of the zoo monkey that throws feces at everything else

      July 24, 2013 at 8:21 am Reply
  14. CASH

    So how ya feeling about that TEST investment there big money?

    July 24, 2013 at 3:06 am Reply
  15. Arrendis

    I’ll say here what I said when you posted this on your own blog:

    In nullsec frigroams are considered “fun” and “PvP experience” is required to join.

    I refer you to my earlier comment about all nullsec entities not being created equal. I’ve never seen anyone turned away from a frigate roam. I’ve seen rookie ships in roams – hell, the Reaper can be fitted out to be a decent little AF, even if it’s as fragile as an interceptor.

    As for ‘having fun’ not being a measurable objective? You are completely wrong there. You can measure whether or not people are having fun – you measure it over time, with statistics. Are people coming back to do it again? Then they can be said to be ‘having fun’ – especially if it’s something frivolous, like a roam. As for ‘feeling dominant’? Sir, I scoff at thee. Nay, I laugh at thee.

    Roams, frigate roams especially, are undertaken with the expectation of ‘have your clone updated, you’re gonna need it. I can’t remember a roam where we didn’t fully expect to die. Intend? Intend to die, we did not. But expect it, certainly. If you can’t afford to lose it, you can’t afford to fly it. And yet, we keep doing them. We whelp horribly, but we keep doing it. Why? Because of that objective you don’t seem to think can be measured: we’re ‘having fun’. We’re laughing, we’re mocking one another, we’re openly razzing the scout whose overview bugged so he blew up a blue destroyer. Are we ‘being dominant’? Fuck no. Honestly, the alpha-male bullshit that people seem to think permeates all levels of PVP is just that – bullshit. Yes, there is some of that, but there’s some of that in any population.

    For the most part, people go on roams to have fun. To go and do something social with their corp/alliance/coalition buddies, have some laughs, and see things explode. Even it’s us.

    And if people keep coming back, then they’re having fun. And that means you can use statistics to measure and quantify that which you claim is not measurable. The objective can be ‘having fun’. This is a voluntary game. When anything else becomes the objective, EVE is just a job, and a pretty sucktastic one.

    Now, maybe that’s not the approach that the guys you fly with take. Maybe they’re all ‘GRRR, SRS BSNS!’ and they’re not laughing themselves silly on every roam, en route to every large fleet battle, when they’re alarm-clocking for a 3:30am form-up.

    And maybe that’s why TEST’s participation numbers have been cratering.

    It’s a game. Have fun.

    As a response Gevlon, you posted:

    “having fun” cannot be an objective, since “having fun” refers exactly to be satisfied by something. The “something” is the objective.

    Proper statements are:
    – I go and capture this system [and have fun when succeed]
    – I go and chat with my friends [and have fun while doing it]

    “I go and have fun” is missing the half part, usually because the person is unable to tell what are his unconscious goals or ashamed of them.

    And again here, I have to reply that you’re categorically wrong. ‘Having fun’ is a valid objective. Look at your second example there. There’s a lot of people I could talk to, but don’t. Why? I wouldn’t enjoy it. So I’m not chatting with my friends, and incidentally having fun; I’m chatting with my friends in order to have fun.

    Having fun is the objective.

    And as I’ve also said: why do you play the game? Why do you play any of these games? None of us, not even Mittens, will go down in history for the things we do in EVE. Nobody will get a parade for ending the menace of Deathwing. So what is your ultimate objective in taking part in this hobby/pastime/lifestyle?

    Satisfaction of knowing you’ve done something well? Amusement and enjoyment? Bad news, Gevlon: that’s fun.

    July 24, 2013 at 3:16 am Reply
    1. lolscrub

      don´t be to harsh with him. as a guy suffering from assburgers i´m pretty sure he cant´t even grasp what this “fun” you are talking about really is.

      July 24, 2013 at 2:23 pm Reply
  16. :}

    It’s actually amazing how you manage to even hit a word count with a topic that anorexic, although I’m not sure there’s even a single cohesive idea holding the article together to begin with. It’s like word salad arranged in a way that even EN24 readers instinctively realize is hot air.

    You make individual points that have basically been patently obvious to other, better columnists on TM and EN24 for years. Presenting obvious information in this format, under what is ostensibly a journalistic mantle, is both implicitly arrogant and explicitly embarrassing to read.

    Also, from writer to writer, you have this voice that manages, impossibly, to be didactic and uncoordinated at the same time. I know this is a gaming news site, but “However to do so, they must understand each other and it’s missing now.” is just an example of how you can technically and superficially nail a sentence but get it so, so fucking wrong.

    Personally, after all this I might have been okay with letting you ride the short bus to the EN24’s already suspect bench of writers but for the fact that occasionally you’re just a good, old-fashioned shitpiston.

    Stop posting.

    July 24, 2013 at 3:33 am Reply
  17. Tara Read

    Yes Goblin you belong in null sec with the other shills and F1 mashing lemmings. Please stay there. Actually if you send me 100 bil I can not only give you “inside” pvp tips used by me but also give you a genuine Spectral Tiger code…

    With warmest regards,

    Terrible Tara. Aka Shadow Cartel male cheerleader.

    July 24, 2013 at 3:37 am Reply
  18. asdf

    useless article – confused – and wrong … also fuck ppl who dont like small scale roams and fuck goblin

    July 24, 2013 at 5:22 am Reply
  19. ohgodno

    I didn’t even read the article. I just saw goblins name and right to the comments to say, STOP.

    July 24, 2013 at 5:24 am Reply
  20. GrouchyOldGamer

    Is this the same Goblin who didn’t know what a Zealot was?

    July 24, 2013 at 7:12 am Reply
  21. bob

    Umm you need skill for small roams yes, frig roams are generally reserved for newbie pilots as the ships are cheap, for larger stuff they generally want to bring back yes they want skill. Unless its a welpfleet. For strategic large fleet ops. No skill is required, unless your logi, the FC will physically tell you every little thing you need to do. As long as your speakers are turned on you can do fine.

    I’m starting to think goblin is just one massive troll, no one can be this dumb about nullsec PVP

    July 24, 2013 at 7:16 am Reply
  22. A Merc

    Nothing wrong with filling out alliances with PvErs that form up in the correct kit, follow orders promptly without hogging coms and get into fighting for their collective space. This is the way many PvErs convert into full time PvPers.

    Its what happens outside the CTA’s which matters more. If you can’t form up & find solid leadership to lead adhoc response fleets / camps at a corp level you’ll be forced to dock up in a station with that neut in system or loose that expensive ratting ship to said neut for not paying attention.

    Its that lack of knowledge like lighting a standard cyno on station in a ratting Tengu with known hot droppers in system that may tempt them to the forms making suggestions on how ‘balance’ nullsec.

    July 24, 2013 at 7:35 am Reply
  23. WTF

    This article is terrible. EN24 needs some new journalists. Somebody sack the editor for publishing this rubbish.

    July 24, 2013 at 7:49 am Reply
  24. I just do not know

    I think you are wrong about the ganking, competitive people do it to pad their killboard…

    July 24, 2013 at 7:52 am Reply
  25. Rene Winther

    Don’t you understand the difference between noob friendly and elitist jerks?

    If you have no pvp experience you have different options you can join FW, RvB, a noob friendly corp, create your own null npc or low-sec corp or just solo pvp. Some people don’t want to teach new players how to pvp, so they set steep requirements for joining their corporation, eg. 50M sp and bad ass killboard.

    If you couldn’t figure out how to get pvp experience, you probably are just the usual “does as he is told” fleet drone, which diffidently are useful to null alliances, but don’t get that confused with pvp experience.

    July 24, 2013 at 7:54 am Reply
  26. Guy

    “For an objective oriented person – unless he flies in alliance
    tournament – it’s a big waste of time as the losses and gains are

    You obviously have no idea how damaging a good small-gang outfit can be. In the space of two weeks a BL corp killed over 100bil of CFC ships in B-D using AF’s and ceptors almost exclusively. This was just because they wanted something to do. A committed force could camp out the CFC constantly, although for that you would need a reasonable force that could run gangs around the clock. Of course you do need to win the big fleet battles as well, but you seriously underestimate how damaging a strong PvP corp is. Just ask Tribe what they think of PIZZA.

    July 24, 2013 at 7:58 am Reply
    1. Tribegrunt

      Pizza are good I guess.
      They do what they are getting paid to do so..

      July 24, 2013 at 10:11 am Reply
  27. Dudumarus

    Goblin,… dude dont push your luck

    July 24, 2013 at 8:09 am Reply
  28. qwer

    Let me get this straight for you: For a PVP guy, strategic operations are usually fucking bullshit. First fleet is assembled usually 30min before anything is going to happen, then when the time is on usually only one side goes to field and the other side FC just tells to his people that enemy had “way too many people”. And even when sometimes both FC’s have the balls to fight about 1:1 fight, the actual fight is boring.

    July 24, 2013 at 8:14 am Reply
  29. Darth Nefarius

    Hmmm even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Good article concerning the bipolar opposites of the sandbox known as EvE

    July 24, 2013 at 8:19 am Reply
    1. asdgghh

      because stereotyping was always a good thing to do…gtfo

      July 24, 2013 at 10:52 am Reply
  30. CommonSense

    Another Gevlon Goblin, I know nothing article. Just having a few roaming gangs out for shits and giggles can shut down ratters (bad for enemy moral) and gain intel on any enemy fleets/forces forming.

    Maybe more of the shit you write needs to be relegated to the cesspool, when you’ll maybe not just rage quit test (or are they just cries for attention), but the entire internet.

    July 24, 2013 at 8:32 am Reply
  31. CMB

    ITT Gevlon thinks that the few alliances that expect ‘PvP Experience’ do so because they think 256 man fleets are hard to fly in.

    Hint: nobody does. Small alliances like RnK may require PvP skills because they fly in more demanding fleets but most alliances only give a shit about kb history to make it harder for spies to get in.

    Another article where Gevlon spends 600 words completely missing the point.

    July 24, 2013 at 8:40 am Reply
  32. Rob

    The only way to stop gevlons articles are:

    1. Stop clicking them and stop commenting

    2.Send an email to [email protected] (from the email us link above) complaining about the article.

    If these guys are serious about keeping their website going they’ll realise that cross posting this shite is bad for business.

    July 24, 2013 at 9:17 am Reply
    1. Dikreathz

      hi bob your opinion is noted and appreciated but I am not recruiting at this time and regretfully must decline your application :(

      July 24, 2013 at 3:08 pm Reply
  33. Thomas

    You yourself disproved the ganking one. If an objective oriented person wants to climb the killboard, apparently what they do is sit in space shooting their own ships.

    July 24, 2013 at 9:35 am Reply
  34. Noisrevbus

    I have no idea what Globbins is ranting about.

    I have one thing to say though: the article inadvertedly does a pretty good job on pointing out a problem.

    You used to “Get ISK” to be competetive.

    You used “Gank” to get ISK.

    You used to “PvP in Frigates” because that was a favourable way for you to get ISK.

    You used to “roam” to get ISK (or destroy ISK).

    “Strategic operations” are still, often ultimately about getting ISK.

    What’s missing in the listing? 😛

    July 24, 2013 at 9:42 am Reply
  35. crysantos

    As usual I’m impressed how ignorant you can be about the game, its mechanics and your fellow players with the time you apparently spend playing it – or at least sitting in a station spinning ships and orders.

    July 24, 2013 at 9:50 am Reply
  36. Eurynome

    this wall of text show show how ignorant you are about PVP, and eve in general.

    Getting ISK: this can be neother boring grind or required involvment and effort, l2play, so many ways to make isk in this game…

    Ganking / PVP roams: many purpose can be found on this, can be fun for some, and nowhere it is dumb, one ship will never be BETTER than another, player skill is involved at all level, you can be the best at using a catalyst, i can tell you that sooner or later, you will find a barge that will rape your ass, you know so little about this game…..

    also, this serve on a strategic level, if you gank whatever come in your space, and roam on regular basis, you prevent neuts to find interesting farming your space, limiting their numbers, and increasing safety for your non pvp players (mission runners, indus etc….).

    ganking / roaming is way more than just a killboard contest, again, to understand this require a bit more knowledge about the game, become a FC, then you will be able to assess all the real meaning of this…

    frigate pvp: any competent FC will run frigate based fleet on a regular basis, many game mechanics can be learned only with those fleets, it helps pilot maintaining sharp reaction time, naturally focus fire, manage range / speed. also a very good exercise for starting FC, new pilots (frig are cheap, easy for them to replace if no SRP), and with the new “logi” frigs, can also teach the basic mechanics of logi role.

    now, a competent ceo / FC will explain to it’s members all this, i personnaly do, and whether my members are pvp oriented or not, they all find this very interesting, the pve guys learn many tricks (from frig roams), tend to start roaming ganking, because after all, they benefit from it, wich in return, make it easier / faster / safer for them to get isk.

    and in the end, all this help them being better in strategic ops, less stress, they know what to do because they are used to their FC way of managing things, etc….

    all this are little part that, all together, build up the team, and provided it is done correctly, you end up witha very good team, wich react quickly and allow you as FC to pull out the finest and trickiest strategy.

    but again, become a FC, and all this will appear clear for you, until then, i suggest you stop posting things like this article, which just show how little of this game you currently understand

    July 24, 2013 at 10:19 am Reply
  37. morebortsigns

    roams are social things where you talk on coms and have fun.
    stratops you shutup and bump the titan while “leaders” are doing their thing and are bored out of your brain.

    I dont see how this becomes a question about skill..skill is one person killing outnumbered by knowing game mechanics and what ships can do from the back of you head and how to trick them from experience of losing or winning.

    That man man is what they call skill.
    I think your mixing up experience with skill.

    July 24, 2013 at 12:18 pm Reply
  38. Hi

    So as long as you only need to orbit and hit F1 you are OK, but any kind of activity that requires independent though you can’t handle? That seems to be the lesson of this article.

    July 24, 2013 at 1:30 pm Reply
  39. EvePlayer

    If you have any 0.0 knowledge you should know that the objective people do not belong in 0.0 unless they are in a leadership position.

    CTA’s in general have no location, no exact shiptype and certainly no objective when they are announced, thats information on a need to know base, which a grunt does not.

    So they will not join the fleet because it has no defined purpose/goal to that player

    July 24, 2013 at 2:34 pm Reply
    1. ?

      Objective oriented people can be in 0.0, and they can fit in just fine. They just need to shut the fuck up and color. That was the hardest thing for me, shutting up and coloring.

      July 24, 2013 at 6:26 pm Reply
  40. *Sigh*

    So an objective player likes ganking because it build their killboard, but doesn’t like frig pvp and pvp roams… what? 1v1 frigs, okay, you may end up on the losing side killboard-wise. But as far as a pvp roaming fleet goes, if everyone in the fleet gets on two killmails, even if the fleet is welped, each fleet member’s killboard goes positive.

    July 24, 2013 at 4:20 pm Reply
  41. guest10112

    “on the perspective on two different perspectives” got to that line and thought, naaah im not interested in glevons dribble..

    July 25, 2013 at 12:10 am Reply
  42. Daniel Plain
    July 25, 2013 at 4:33 pm Reply
  43. Selina

    As soon as I saw an article with the word PVP in it’s title, written by Goblin, I knew this was going to be good! (The comments that is. Didn’t even bother reading the likely ignorant ‘article’)

    July 26, 2013 at 6:49 pm Reply

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