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ships_sov_jb

I think something has to be done about the player held SOV mechanics, really. Every time the subject comes up, it seems a lot of players agree to that it has to change, but then we can’t figure how to change it without breaking it. So, I think I understand how big a change that would be. On the other hand it has to change. I mean. Right now it seems impossible for a small group of well organized players to hold their own one system. And it’s not about the ISK involved… Cuz I’ve seen happen more than once that a small group of players when well organised can actually make ISK enough to fuel everything we need to hold SOV. And it’s not about losing POSes either. Smaller groups who are well organised and smart enough can actually manipulate reinforce timers, repair towers that got attacked and keep them going. But only while their ratting/mining is left undisturbed. And the bigger blocks know that. Which is exactly why they will try and break the on going ISK chain.

Messing someone way of making ISK is an intelligent strategy, don’t get me wrong. Being able to break someone’s supply chain is effective and intelligent. The part that makes it a brutal and unfair game is a little trick called AFK Cloaker. To understand why that it not only effective, but deadly and unfair to a small alliance we need to take a look on how SOV works these days. And what and AFK Cloaker actually does.

SOV games now seem to just be about how many friendly supers/titans you have, and how many of those you can take down. and some people will argue that you just need a cynojam tower. Every now and then someone will have this brilliant idea. Let’s get a cynojam and bubble the heck out of all the gates. Smaller ships will be stuck in bubbles and we can get them down and supers can’t come in. Sad thruth is… the attacker is always big enough that they can wait untill all of us are asleep, come thru our bubbles with no retaliation found, take down the cynojams, shoot our structures and when we wake up again, all is lost. All there’s left to do is a rushed out eviction.

And here I must add that someone who goes thru the trouble of taking down POSes, jump bridges and cynojam towers and fighting the owners of the system, or even waits for them to be inactive to do a hostile take over DESERVES to own SOV in the system. It all boils down to if you grew large enough to be able to drop 100 super on a small corp, like hell you should be able to. I have to agree that cynojams is a good counter measure against titans and I have to agree that SOV has to work out of diplo and to tell the truth, a small alliance who manages to work out a relationship with a big block so that they can ask for help and can get other people to bring in the supers when needed would also DESERVE to hold that one little system.

So you might be wondering right now what exactly is my problem with the current SOV system. My problem is most of the time it’s not how it ends. I mean, it doesn’t end by the big dogs dropping their full power on your system, neither does it end with us, the small alliances, asking for help from our blues and turning the game on the attackers. Most of the time, and to me it’s been likely 9 times out of every 10, they won’t bother attacking, they wait until we get tired and go. How, you ask. It’s horribly simple. They plague your little system with one (just one) little frigate. One little frigate. An that makes it impossible for anyone to do anything. Maybe because we are cowards, right? Carebears who will be afraid of a one frigate. No. I’ll explain.

They bring in a frigate and cloak it up in the system. That one frigate will sometimes watch our movements and tell its friends when we rat, when we mine, when capitals are out. They will hint fleets and uncloak and tackle your capitals, then bring in the dps and kill your capitals. If you don’t have a cynojam, they will cyno a fleet in. If there is a cynojam they will bring a cyno to some other system close to us. Now is this unfair? If someone is standing in that cloaked alt and watching us, it is not unfair, it is war. But waiting for the right moment for a capital kill is not the true reason why there is just one ship cloaked in your system 24/7. They are looking to break the supply chain the easy way.

It has to be the oldest trick in EVE, and yet there is no counter measure to it, because simply that cloaked ship is not possible to be found. You can’t probe its location. Sure, you can uncloak it. But then, they cloak in a safe, which is a midwarp point in between SOMETHING and SOMETHING. Cloak it in 3 levels deep safe, which is midpoint warp in between safes, and then in between those, and then no one will be able to remotely cross paths with you. So that’s when EVE stops being a skill and ability game. Those cloakers can be afk for days and no one will want to undock a capital which leads to end of ratting and mining, which leads to end of ISK. So soon enough, without any fight, without any risk for the bigger power, the small alliance has no option other than to leave. That is if it didn’t already fail-cascaded at that point.

Breaking the Supply chain is actually an intelligent strategy but it isn’t easy. You would have to figure out when and where the supply fleets and carriers and jump freighters and freights leave form and where they go to. It would take deep spying. It would include risks. It would include planning and it would include fights. Now, what is that one afk cloaker actually doing? NOTHING. Nothing at all. There is no fight involved, there is no risk involved, there doesn’t need to be anyone at that keyboard, and that is why this is not an actual strategy, it is simply unfair game.

And moreover. Why does it simply doesn’t work the other way around? I mean what keeps small corps and alliances from camping their enemy’s systems with an afk cloaker? Those big powers simply don’t rely on ratting/mining to pay their bills, or have enough systems so that they can just move somewhere else every time a system gets camped, or simply don’t believe a smaller group would actually try and take down their caps/supers. So it doesn’t matter how long you camp, it simply won’t work.

I’ve seen more alliances break because of that one trick than alliances who actually found a way around it into making it thru to grow big. Maybe I’m just to new to the game to see another way around it other than willing to risk it and not stop activities because of campers or other than begging for a blue to let us move somewhere else, where everything will just happen again. One of the simpler solutions would just get in a bigger block so that camping is ineffective. But why it is bad to the game? I may be naive here, but doesn’t it all lead into a couple big blobs holding their own piece of nullsec without having to keep fighting for it? Isn’t it mor eor less where nullsec has evolved into right now? Where fights will more often happen out of infighting than from the need to attack enemies? Wouldn’t we have more smaller alliances trying to win their rights to own their systems if they could stop the afk cloaker problem?

Either by gathering enough skill that would take a capital pilot to do it, or by building an expensive structure… say a cloakjam. So just like we could make it so no one can come in with supers, we could either be able to probe down a cloaky or prevent them from cloaking in our system. Some people might scream “auto log off for inactivity”. And I simply don’t think that solves the problem. It is not only the simple fact that no one is at that keyboard that really bothers me. It is the fact that can’t be removed by active players. I don’t think that finding them should be something easy to do either, since it could compromise other activities in EVE, like, keeping cloaky eyes on systems, which in its essence should be legit. I think it should be possible to stay cloaked somewhere and watch your enemy, I just don’t think that SOV over a system should be owned by keeping an afk cloaker alt in said system for long enough. Which is what happens today more frequently than a nullsec PVPer would like to admit. So, CCP could make a special probe launcher that would only go in a capital ship, or at least a black ops ship, high skilled enough so you could’t train it on a trial account, or it wold take a toon with 20mil sp+ to train into.

I believe this is just about enough to give smaller alliances and corps more options to stay and fight, since after being prevented from doing anything profitable in that one system for a month that small alliance will be likely to cut deals with the enemy just to be able to leave. Cuz it doesn’t matter who you are blue to, they won’t relief you from paying rent or come for you because of a single afk cloaker, and even they actually do come, what can even a super do against it? And don’t get me started on the scams, where the owner of the system would pay people to evict their renters as soon as they pay a couple months in advance. Scamming is part of EVE, and who ever falls from them probably deserves to be scammed. I still think the enemy could and should offer deals. It bothers me when allegiances switch just because of some deal, but I consider that to be a fair part of the game. But it should be possible for a smaller alliances to stand and fight if they want. At least until they get run over by supers. And again, being run over by supers is still fair fight, since it takes time and work and ISK to grow into a super power. I am not against big blocks. I even think spying is big part of this game. I am not against deals. Winning SOV out of deal, out of spying, out of watching the enemies and how they move is all valid strategy. But SOV shouldn’t be owned by one single afk cloaker.

Just that one change or rather a small new mechanic that would make afk clockers possible to be found would bring more fights to the sov warfare without (in my opinion at least) totally breaking the game. It would still need big blocks, it would still be decided by who owns and takes down more supers, it would still be possible to cut deals, or entirely break someone’s supply chain, like i think it should be, but it would force some of the bigger alliances who will just hide and blue ball *cough solar*cough* to actually attack someone at some point, to evict that one little annoyance that won’t let that one system go.

– Ji Hye Meijung

210 Comments

  1. pfff

    tldr

    July 18, 2013 at 3:28 pm Reply
  2. VoC Ddue

    ‘AFK Cloaker’ Stopped reading there…

    July 18, 2013 at 5:28 pm Reply
  3. Dntel Overkill

    Try this

    Cloaked ships do not show in local while cloaked unless they talk.

    New probes that can scan a cloaked ship. Maybe make these probes not show on D-Scan? Either way the cloaked ship has to stay moving. Somehow make it very tedious to scan with these and require a great deal of skill training.

    This does several things.

    1. You could not “AFK” cloak but you could still harass using a cloaked ship.

    2. A Corp in the system would have a way to fight against the harassment but not shut it down completely. If the Corp dedicated someone to scanning while ratting/mining.
    I don’t like the idea of having a passive way to deal with any issue. Like anti cloaking tower.

    Another option that I have thought of would be to not allow Regular Cyno generators on ships with cloaking devices fitted so that a cloaky ship cannot pull up and hot drop a cap fleet. covert Cyno should still work though.

    July 18, 2013 at 5:55 pm Reply
  4. gavin neltharek

    An interesting option to help the problem might be a new sov mod that can be activated which would send out a system wide pulse, disrupting cloaking systems temporarily. Have it require sov 4 or 5, make it consume fuel, and have a timer before re-use. If it has a 1 hour reactivation delay, but disables cloaks for about 5 minutes you instantly do away with the afk cloak problem, while still making active cloakers dangerous since they can bounce safes.

    July 18, 2013 at 7:09 pm Reply
  5. Jesus Christ

    Jesus Christ this was long. Bla bla bla bla. Criticize but not a single proposition. So i will make one. How about a sonar (structure or maybe a capital module. or something very very high sp to use) that when activated (and using fuel) uncloaks everything in system and doesnt let it cloack up for 2 minutes? Would like to see that. either way mr moaner fleet up and use a bait. ffs.

    July 18, 2013 at 7:22 pm Reply
  6. Horriane

    How about this, a anchored device that is announced in overview, takes 2 people to charge up for 30 mins, some kind of pulse that dissables cloak fields in the system for 2 minutes. then has to be charged again after a 30 min cooldown. would take care of the afk cloaker and leave explorers and pvpers alone.

    July 18, 2013 at 8:47 pm Reply
  7. Carlos

    what ever the solution is…CCP needs to stop neglecting this. This has been a problem for many years.I dont mean render it completely useless but do put some work aroound covert cloaking. It will give the smaller entities a chance to fight back and I think its about time this gets fixed.

    July 18, 2013 at 10:24 pm Reply
  8. Pregnant Wombat

    I really don’t know how many times I need to say this…

    MOVE TO A DIFFERENT SYSTEM! HOLY CRAP… HOW HARD IS IT TO NOT HANG OUT AROUND ALL THE NOOBS WHO DIE WHEN YOU ARE WANTING TO MAKE ISK.

    This is how the game has always been. There’s always some idiot in local who dies all the time and attracts the reds. It will always be that way. Let me tell you something. They don’t hang around systems where they don’t get kills. Simple. If you got guys in your corp or alliance who get killed all the time in your favorite ratting system A. Kick the idiot out or B move to a different system. I solved this problem a long time ago. While in fleets, I hang out with everyone, but when its isk making time, Im on my own. I will hang out in places no one would ever dream to find me, and if they did, I logged out, warp to POS/STATION etc. If you are alone or with another few trusted individuals in a system.. they just say screw it and move on. In my system, they stay for at max maybe 20 minutes at onepoint. If they were to ever try to stay for longer, I’d just make it boring for them and leave, and start a new life in a different system. I’m very immune to hot droppers/cloakies etc. I know some people suck at dealing with them. I just don’t associate myself around them. Problem Solved.

    July 18, 2013 at 10:43 pm Reply
    1. GrouchyOldGamer

      Happily CCP have always said cloaks work as intended there are no plans to change them. I can only assume people who whine on and on about this are either a) renters who can’t move or b) hardcore null bears.

      Personally I’ve never been killed by anyone AFK in EVE that apparently makes me pro as fuck – who knew!?!

      July 18, 2013 at 10:51 pm Reply
      1. Pregnant Wombat

        I’m beginning to think the difference between pros and noobs is that someone actually pays attention in local, and does what they can to keep doing what they do without interference. The latter just whines about it. I agree.

        July 19, 2013 at 4:56 pm Reply
  9. Justin Cody

    YEAH BAN AFK CLOAKING! oh HTFU already. Is it that time of the month again?

    July 19, 2013 at 9:16 am Reply
    1. Fartolio

      You look to me like you have a permanent “that part of the month”. Should i ask you if you mad? Would be something you understand, probably.

      July 19, 2013 at 9:37 am Reply
      1. Justin Cody

        Its the same bullcrap crying by the same carebear snowflakes time after time. just deal with it. No one is going to put a time limit on cloaking and no one is going to make a cloak take fuel or anything.

        July 19, 2013 at 5:26 pm Reply
        1. Fartolio

          You seem to be really so stupid as you look like. But i’m shure that’s no news for you.

          July 22, 2013 at 7:49 am Reply
  10. Nobody

    “is not an actual strategy, it is simply unfair game”

    So … there is no honor in EVE … oh wait.

    AFK cloakers actually have a counter in the ISK chain matter. Your small alliance members can rat in fleet, always have a few pvp ships in station, bait the enemy etc. If they dont do it, then is a pvp-averse alliance … so they dont deserve that system!

    July 19, 2013 at 12:26 pm Reply
    1. Usual Suspects

      Mate you really sound like you know what you’re talking about…
      I hope i find you ratting in a pimped out ship somewhere thinking you are safe because teh “cool PVP dudes” are about.
      Im guessing you haven’t seen how fast a covert cyno goes up, in come 40 bombers and 5 blops and that Machariel melts before the fleet has even undocked.

      July 22, 2013 at 9:00 am Reply
  11. Nullibro

    What CCP could do, is create a few stable WHs to a new unexplored Galaxy where cloacks, Jump Drives and even jump cloning would not work (because of a natural phenomena). You could only access those WHs with small size ships (frigates only). In there, everything would need to be build from scratch. You could not claim systems, you would just live in it. The riches in that Galaxy could be set to be VERY rewarding etc… Anyways….new grounds for new fun.

    July 19, 2013 at 3:51 pm Reply
    1. Pregnant Wombat

      Yeah, and they could have stuff like Sleeper Sites in them, and you can build whatever army you want, but the holes would only allow only so much enemy through… man can’t wait until they have that….??????

      July 19, 2013 at 6:09 pm Reply
      1. srsli

        lol ^^ this made my day, if ONLY that exsisted right? damn wtb WH space in next expac

        July 24, 2013 at 2:32 pm Reply
  12. legit afk deterrent

    Do some nullbears and neckbeards cry about AFK Cloaky Camping only because it affects their ability to more safely AFK Mine and AFK Rat? Sure. Is it also a legitimate concern that there is an effect in the game without an effective counter? I think so.

    The problem with “AFK Cloaky Camping” is not the “Cloaky Camping” part, but rather the “AFK” part. CCP is constantly trying to tweak mechanics to prevent players from being AFK in other parts of game (ie. AFK mining, AFK ratting, etc.). I don’t see why this should be any different. The ability to cloak up indefinitely without any sort of counter allows, if not encourages, being AFK, which is seemingly contrary to CCP’s stated goals of active gameplay.

    If tweaking the actual ability to cloak is too hard or would break cloaking in the opposite direction, then simply have an IHUB upgrade that allows a POS module that causes “cloaking feedback” throughout the system. This would allow for an entire spectrum of possibilities for balancing purposes, from “no cloaking allowed in that system at all,” to “after 15 minutes a cloaking device will deactivate due to excess feedback.” A POS module can also be shot down, allowing for cloaking in that system to resume until the module is replaced — akin to Cyno Suppression.

    The express goal or purpose of introducing a mechanic to counter cloaking in this way should not be to appease nullbears, but rather to iterate on already existing mechanics that discourage being AFK. Regardless of specifics, the countering effect it can have on players being AFK is sizable, and in theory should be right in line with CCP’s stated ideals and goals of active game-play.

    July 19, 2013 at 8:11 pm Reply
  13. LoveBiscuit

    If you could find cloaked ships Mad Ani Would not be happy, neither would cloaky Tech 3 boosters :(

    July 20, 2013 at 12:29 pm Reply
  14. Scrub

    More AFK cloaking tears, ffs just leave the system and go elsewhere.

    July 21, 2013 at 6:52 pm Reply
  15. Hans Pursche

    Problem is not a cloaky Hauler. problem is that big Blocks can use 50+ Supers/Titans and jump through all of eve in no time at all take over everything. Big ships should be more ‘stationary’ than smaller ships. Let them only be able to use gates to jump through and this would be a different game in 0.0 space.

    July 22, 2013 at 7:40 am Reply
  16. Draco

    The implied threat of afk cloaker is bigger than its reality. Just ignore its there, but keep alert.

    July 22, 2013 at 12:00 pm Reply
  17. Titus Veridius

    God is dead, or if he wasn’t this thread would have killed him. I thought being blue balled, being significantly outnumbered, having doctrines hard countered, and morale disintegrating from farming structure timers were one’s biggest adversaries.

    IT IS IN FACT ONE DUDE SITTING CLOAKED IN HELIOS. ALL HAIL OUR NEW COV OPS OVERLORD. I SUBMIT TO YOUR RULE ANONYMOUS GAME CHANGING TYRANT. YOUR 10 YEAR GUERRILLA CAMPAIGN OF STEALTH AND CUNNING HAS SMOTE ALL CHALLENGERS. LOOK UPON HIS WORKS AND DESPAIR, YE PLEBES.

    DO WITH MY FRIENDS WHAT YOU WILL, BUT PLEASE SPARE ME. I HAVE PREEMPTIVELY SMEARED MY ANUS WITH GLASS DUST, IT WOULD BE ILL-ADVISED TO RAPE ME.

    July 22, 2013 at 5:40 pm Reply

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