Comments

monocle

Maybe it was the same guy that wrote both comments.  But you know, maybe not.

I’ve really enjoyed reading all of the comments here, at EN24, on TMC, and on the EVE Online forums regarding the hiring of Sean Decker last week.  And of course the threadnaught is still rolling, now up to 44 pages which is higher than the point that usually gets CCP’s attention, particularly if there are a lot of different player accounts writing in it.  But I have to admit the type of comment that really interests me are the ones that generally go like this, from two anonymous comments here, this one:

He is from EA, the scourge of the gaming world. That should be enough to make us all very, very nervous until he proves otherwise.

and this somewhat longer one:

Jester I would be less concerned if the prick’s job was Head of DUST 514 development, the fact that he a Head of CCP Product Development makes me very, very nervous.

“Very, very nervous” is the general attitude of the vocal EVE players, all right, where it isn’t outright hostile.  But the two comments above are the combined comment of the week.

When EVE players are hostile toward Decker, the general gist of the comments seems to follow a pattern of logic that goes something like this:

  1. Electronic Arts is evil.
  2. Therefore, everyone who is in an executive position at Electronic Arts is evil.
  3. Therefore, Sean Decker is evil.

This is a logical fallacy, but it’s a rare enough one that I actually had to go look it up.  It’s called the “fallacy of the undistributed middle.”  You could, if you liked, rephrase it like this:

  1. EVE Online is famously full of racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beards.
  2. You are an EVE Online player.
  3. Therefore, you are a racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beard.

I’ll give you a moment to digest that.  😉

This is a fallacy because what you’re really saying is “All X are Y.  Some Z is X, therefore all X are Y.”  If Electronic Arts is evil, that doesn’t automatically mean that every person in EA is evil.  “A few bad apples spoils the bunch,” as the homey old saying goes, but nobody stops to consider the good apples that might be mixed into that very same bunch.  When I was growing up at the height of the Reagan-era red scare in the United States, the homey little ward against such thinking was “Communists love their children too.”  In both cases, that’s the “undistributed middle” of the fallacy.

Am I saying that Sean Decker is a good guy?  No, I’m not, not automatically.  What I’m cautioning you against is jumping straight to the logical fallacy that he’s automatically a bad guy just because he was a Vice President at Electronic Arts.  Jumping straight to that logical fallacy is an excellent way to have your opinion ignored by CCP, and for a good valid reason.

Let’s be clear: you don’t need the fallacy.  Sean Decker has said enough things out of his very own mouth to justifiably make EVE players “very, very nervous.”  That’s what my original piece was ultimately about.  Now that he works for CCP, he’s walked some of them back.  But if you’re going to rage about him, rage about him for the right reasons and not some logical fallacy, OK?

One last thing on this topic.  I’ve been catching some heat lately on EVE Radio and elsewhere from EVE players, claiming that I’m backing off on CCP now that I’m on the CSM.  That one makes me smile because as always, some EVE players think I’m being too easy on CCP, some CCP devs think I’m being overly hard on them, and here’s me caught in the middle.  Except now that the CCP devs have direct access to me on a more or less constant basis, they’re not shy about letting me know about it.  As always, I can’t win.

But you can rest assured that when I write this kind of piece, I’m giving you my true feelings on a matter.  When I say step back and give Sean a chance, I mean that.  But it’s not going to stop me from saying to you: if you are going to criticize or even be “very, very nervous” about him, do it as a result of things he actually does or says.

Ripard Teg

If you would like to read more we invite you to visit his blog here.

53 Comments

  1. Tony Abbot

    EVE Online is famously full of racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beards.
    You are an EVE Online player.
    Therefore, you are a racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beard.

    As the Australian Liberal party leader, I believe this is an accurate reflection of myself, and the EVE online player base.

    July 14, 2013 at 3:01 pm Reply
    1. Linus Gorp

      I absolutely agree with the above.

      July 14, 2013 at 3:04 pm Reply
    2. riverini

      Yeah, upon reading that specific line, I couldn’t help to recall the times I have been called some variation of a mexican insult (despite being spanish rather than mestizo), or the times players like mintchip has been called pretty insulting mysogynistic names or even worst the general angst which seems to be rampant in your average eve online player (which most sport neckbears)… sometimes those lines line seems to be bit more accurate than what I would like to admit…

      July 14, 2013 at 3:12 pm Reply
      1. I just do not know

        I admit to being racist, in that I think there are differences between the races, which defines me as a racist as per the Oxford dictionary, however I think that we are all human and that is more important. I do not believe all cultures are the same, I do not like Islamic culture nor do I like black rap culture, perhaps for the simple minded that is enough to call me a racist.
        In terms of this new employee, the proof will be in the eating so to speak, I will judge him on what he does and says, which is how I discriminate in real life.

        July 14, 2013 at 7:16 pm Reply
        1. relic

          what is black rap culture?? what do i call the white kids wearing baggy pants and other dumb things?? if you wanna hate someone for not thinking or acting like you go right ahead. but stop deluding yourself into thinking your anything but a racist prick when you bring skin color into it

          July 15, 2013 at 1:43 am Reply
          1. Marcus

            Spoken like the true racist. He said he didn’t “like” black rap culture not that he “hated” it or hated the people hes describing. And the black rap culture has obviously effected many races not just blacks and he doesn’t say otherwise, you are the one pointing it out. There are many white/hispanic/asian/black who participate in “black rap culture” not just black people. I don’t like that myself but to say I hate black people as a whole is sickening, I have black family members, I am white. So fuck you. We are all human first.

            July 15, 2013 at 5:55 am
      2. Jim

        It is the old goon line: You win by making your enemy not want to play the game. Psychological and spiritual attacks can be much more effective than the desolation of pixels.

        July 14, 2013 at 10:50 pm Reply
    3. Sieveboy

      Your Pod needs red speedos (for everyone else out there google Tony Abbott Speedos, up until 3 weeks ago he was very likely going to be Australia’s next prime minister… shudder).

      July 15, 2013 at 12:52 am Reply
    4. Marcus

      I was typing out pretty much the same before I read your post.

      As an Eve player it is normal to know this about ourselves.. only people on the outside think its strange. Or we think its strange but don’t give a fuck.

      You: It is known?
      Me: It is known.

      July 15, 2013 at 5:32 am Reply
  2. wait

    You mean I’m NOT a racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beard?

    The more you know…

    Also, wrong fallacy. It would be what you think it would be if it was like the following^

    1) All evil people work in EA (all Z is B).
    2) Sean works in EA (Y is B)
    3) Therefore Sean is evil (therefore Y is Z)

    But. This is not what happens. Instead:

    1) Every single employee of EA is evil (all A is B)
    2) Sean is an EA employee (Y is A)
    3) Therefore Sean is evil (therefore Y is B)

    Which is perfectly reasonable and valid logic.

    July 14, 2013 at 3:14 pm Reply
  3. troll

    But you see, Ripard Teg, the racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beard part is true, at least regarding with me. I do believe that communities with different cultural background will have a hard time living together – with that in mind Scandinavian pro-immigration folks would call me a racist in a heartbeat (so check). Also a LOT of slactivist-feminists have called me a misogynistic when i have pointed out glaring logic holes in their paranoid induced theories (check). And about hateful neck-beard stuff – i have a short beard and i hate every human being equally (so check again).

    Are you sure that this article has nothing to do about you and the rest of CSM being CCP-s buttbuddies? Because it surely seems that with this article and posts in threadnought many CSM members have their T2 DCU activated. Btw, why no mention of his views about micro-transactions or his game development history?

    July 14, 2013 at 3:21 pm Reply
    1. Kullen

      Being called a racist by scandinavian pro-immigration folks is a bloody complimang as it is now…

      July 14, 2013 at 6:20 pm Reply
  4. k123a12

    Im suprised theres nothing on defiance coalition declareing war on sver true blood yet

    July 14, 2013 at 3:57 pm Reply
  5. PL grunt

    EVE Online is famously full of racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beards?

    Really…? Maybe you are playing a different game to me?

    We have like two racist/ misogynists in PL and we laugh at how pathetic they are.

    July 14, 2013 at 4:11 pm Reply
    1. Dinsdale Pirannha

      Yeah, but you happen to make Soundcloud recordings of them and then broadcast them. Which suggests that you actually condone what they say. If you are so much against this kind of behaviour, why not ban them from PL? I got at least one guy banned, at the very least, from the Eve forums, for comments exactly along the same lines as the worst comments and views Grath has been recorded stating.

      Bottom line, you guys, and you are far from the only group, ARE exactly the stereotype of what the gaming community has for Eve players: pretty horrible people.

      July 14, 2013 at 4:22 pm Reply
      1. Here's a Medal

        Rather be known as a cunt than ignored completely.

        July 14, 2013 at 7:15 pm Reply
    2. Another PL Grunt

      Nope, sorry I am on IRC and see the conversations, which is why I engage in them only on occasion. I see stereotypical race slurs use regularly with very little correction from the group. Maybe this is my fault as well since I generally just leave the conversations or mumble when they occur and only on occasion state the use of the slurs is racist. Either way its a problem.

      July 14, 2013 at 4:38 pm Reply
    3. Guy

      No, we’re not playing a different game. In my experience Eve is pretty much the bottom of the barrel when it comes to racists and horrible nerds.

      July 15, 2013 at 6:40 am Reply
  6. andrey saharov

    ccp will die. sooner or later. fake dust turn ccp in dust. f2p is shit. all people left eve in 1 day. ccp are fool with politics.

    July 14, 2013 at 4:13 pm Reply
    1. herp

      learn english, you illiterate fuck.

      July 14, 2013 at 5:06 pm Reply
      1. ChillOutBro

        Crikey! How many languages do you have to be able to speak before you’re not illiterate?
        Here’s an idea, next time you feel like posting, just, stahhp.

        July 14, 2013 at 7:13 pm Reply
        1. Lighten up you sop

          Oh hush your white knighting, he’s clearly trolling and i for one thought it funny, go out and get a tan on them pasty legs you fat neckbeard.

          July 14, 2013 at 7:43 pm Reply
      2. Dikreathz

        to swear and call a person illiterate is uhm
        a OXYMORON with teh power of an Ox !!!

        July 15, 2013 at 10:08 am Reply
  7. Darth Nefarius

    Shouldn’t this have been “All X are Y. Some Z is X, therefore all Z are Y.” because “All X are Y. Some Z is X, therefore all X are Y.” All x is y is true without the therefore operator/implication

    July 14, 2013 at 5:03 pm Reply
  8. derp

    an entire ‘article’ just to talk about semantics and end with a watered down conclusion for what boils down to making the same point – ppl are nervous about sean decker.. #sigh

    July 14, 2013 at 5:04 pm Reply
  9. Jesus Christ

    I stand by my reason of tough. He was vice of one of the orst corporations in the planet. Yes he is tainted by it. And unfortunatly no more free expansions for us.

    July 14, 2013 at 5:23 pm Reply
  10. Onion Lover

    the difference between “the average eve player” and an executive ANYTHING from EA is simple: we are willing and able to prove our good intentions. we have folks who will give us references. he cant say the same.

    Oh and Rip? if everyone is pissed like that it sounds like you have found a balance.

    July 14, 2013 at 5:36 pm Reply
    1. Gevlin

      It is the opposite way around. Average Eve Player is Anonomys, there for we don’t have references, Executive is a person there for has to have a reference to be compare to another to get the the position

      July 14, 2013 at 8:45 pm Reply
      1. Onion Lover

        shut your whore mouth.

        July 15, 2013 at 1:05 pm Reply
  11. Wonder

    OK maybe I’m way off base here but I thought he was in charge at EA of the worse part of it. Micro transactions or whatever.
    So using that isn’t it like saying we should not hate Hitler because not all Nazi are bad?
    Not trying to be politically incorrect it just came to mind.

    July 14, 2013 at 6:23 pm Reply
    1. No

      To take your analogy Decker would be more like Josef Mengele. What Ripard is saying is go after him based on the horrible experiments he did (Microtransactions) rather than go after him because he was part of the Nazi regime (he worked at EA).

      July 14, 2013 at 6:59 pm Reply
      1. Billy

        So its OK to still hate him, we just have to be more specific why. OK Got it.

        Hilmar has had a hardon for Microtransactions for a LONG time. He was curb stomped over the whole Monocle and designer Japanese Jeans thing a couple of years ago. Now he has fetched in a professional Microtransaction guy to try and get them into the game in a way that we wont complain about.

        Ship skins coming as soon as the V3 upgrades are complete. Ship decals and maybe even full ship models coming to a Aurum store near you.

        July 15, 2013 at 12:40 am Reply
        1. Invalid string

          I remember hello kitty kestrels from a few fanfests ago.

          July 15, 2013 at 10:58 am Reply
  12. Mark

    I’m not racist, I hate everyone equally.

    July 14, 2013 at 6:51 pm Reply
    1. CBJL

      We’re not racist at all. Racism is a crime, and crime is for black people!

      July 14, 2013 at 10:15 pm Reply
      1. Dikreathz

        i know black rasists just look at the Zulu’s and there hate for the bushmen

        July 15, 2013 at 10:05 am Reply
        1. jump in front of a bus

          please stop posting on en24 you muppet. your consistent butthurt comments only make you look like a retard.

          July 16, 2013 at 12:01 am Reply
          1. Dikreathz

            guest has feelings too see. where did i touch you?

            July 16, 2013 at 7:22 am
  13. Ashesofempires

    You changed the argument. You committed the fallacy.

    The original argument is this:
    Sean Decker is an EA Executive. All A is B.
    All EA executives are evil. All B is C
    Therefore, Sean Decker is evil. All A is C.

    The next time you try to argue about fallacies, go read the wiki article very thoroughly before you stick your foot in your mouth. In order to put an argument into categorical form, you have to rewrite it. The Statement “Electronic Arts is Evil” is redundant. The argument posted has an unspoken assumption: “Sean Decker is an EA Executive.” Sean Decker is All A, because there are no other people in the world named Sean Decker who work at EA. EA Executive is B. is Evil is C.

    In pure logical terms, this argument is valid. However, on background we know that it isn’t true because it is an assumption that all EA executives are evil. it is likely that some of them (lol) are not evil. On the other hand, we know that Sean Decker is probably evil because of the interviews he’s done, the statements he’s made, and his recent work experience. All of that, on top of where he’s worked for the past decade, show us that he is, if not evil, someone who believe that microtransactions are the future. Prior history shows us that EA doesn’t do microtransactions very gracefully (Dead Space 3, ME3, BF3, etc), and that CCP doesn’t do them gracefully (Aurum, NEX store), and that Sean Decker, once head of EA’s F2P division, is now head of product development at CCP.

    Now go buy a fucking logic textbook and do some reading.

    July 14, 2013 at 10:11 pm Reply
    1. Dikreathz

      + 1 for good grasp of random shit -1 for point of view, unless your a PS3 jock in which case go play WoW

      July 15, 2013 at 10:04 am Reply
  14. qweq

    I am a racist, misogynistic, hateful neck-beard!

    July 14, 2013 at 10:25 pm Reply
    1. Luigi

      No.
      ~I’M~ a racist, mysogynistic, hateful neck-beard

      July 14, 2013 at 11:33 pm Reply
  15. so what?

    It is not news to the average eve player that they are a terrible person, its why this game is so much fun, so many different people all trying to break each others toys. It doesn’t change the fact that he was a part of the team that ran one amazing series into the ground after another.

    July 15, 2013 at 2:20 am Reply
  16. Tracking Disrupter II

    ea is shit, based on historical fuck ups, thus requiring no place in EVE. To say ex-ea staff have a clue and will develop software to improve gameplay is a fail in both in vision and loyalty of EVE gamers. We have put our lives into this game, you (ccp) have insulted us, while going for the coin. The connection of EVE with ea…..is well….. lets put it like this. I can cancel my account. U nervous yet ?

    July 15, 2013 at 3:34 am Reply
    1. passie

      “based on historical fuckups?” seems eve is the perfect spot for him :)

      July 15, 2013 at 7:44 am Reply
  17. Unimpressed

    This article = why he is pole smoking and why we shouldn’t hate him… (Just saved you 5 minutes of reading)

    July 15, 2013 at 6:14 am Reply
  18. Carnadyne

    Forget the logic and rhetoric tract: People DO get judged on their employment history- at the executive (decision making) level, people get HIRED because of their employment history and achievements.

    If you are running for political office, and you hire Karl Rove, people are going to have expectations.

    Same with hiring Sean Decker from EA- he’s been hired for his his experience. Since that experience is with processes that Eve PLAYERS find distasteful (micro transactions) then there will complaints because the of the expectations.

    Apart from the usual trolls, Eve players in general are older (experienced!), and smarter than those of any other MMO. We are not kiddies playing an electronic babysitter like some titles. In general, we know when we smell a rat.

    Unless there is some damage control about Decker’s role and intentions, I predict it will eventually be Incarna & monocle protests all over again- as soon as the first hint of Aurum or other currency. Players WILL vote with their subscriptions and Hilmar’s “I’m sorry” may not cut it next time.

    Hell, maybe I’m overreacting and this guy is really a good businessman and CCP has a real need for him. But to me he’s just another Karl Rove.

    July 15, 2013 at 6:31 am Reply
  19. figures

    Don’t you mean “CPP is telling me to tell you guys to stop.”
    Why?
    Because if you do, they’ll receive backlash that they don’t want to deal with.
    GO GO monkey CSM!
    Next you’re going to be telling us that “Golden Ammo” and Micro transactions is good, right?

    July 15, 2013 at 6:43 am Reply
  20. Captain Hero

    OP is a Faggot!

    July 15, 2013 at 6:54 am Reply
  21. TerasEGS

    Yea I agree! We should first let him destroy Eve and then call him names!! We shouldn’t be nervous……NOT. Truth be told you can’t judge someone before we see some of his work. So excuse me if I do not trust someone that was the VS for EA’s Play4Free games. They fucking got SWTOR the worse F2P model currently out there I doubt he didn’t have anything to do with that! And it’s the guy that said in an interview “I see the world as a micro-transaction,” . Yea….we should obviously ,blindly, trust him.

    The thing is when a company hires someone they first take a look where he used to work and how was his work there. So CCP saw it and well they decided they liked it and hired him. It remains to be seen if they did a wise thing but don’t expect the rest to enjoy the move since there are people that love the game and do not want to see another stupid addition (call me incarna).

    July 15, 2013 at 7:43 am Reply
  22. #3 of second points

    ha, look at Jester trying to put logic into the rage equation

    July 15, 2013 at 10:54 am Reply
  23. Drojdier

    It’s sad that you blow the whole argument with a stupid typo in the most important sentence of your article:

    “All X are Y. Some Z is X, therefore all X are Y” should’ve been “All X are Y. Some Z is X, therefore all Z are Y”

    July 15, 2013 at 11:26 am Reply
  24. Caesar Gallenteas

    Thank you for putting some logic and thought into this discussion.

    July 23, 2013 at 1:48 pm Reply

Leave a Reply to Unimpressed Click here to cancel reply.