Comments

ships_supers

Consider, if you will, the barbarian horde.

Though much maligned and, in fairness, with a tendency toward poor table manners and an excess of hair, the barbarian horde serves an important function in ebb and flow of human history. Think of them as a forge in which civilizations, both established and emerging, are periodically tested by hammer and fire. Thus tested, a civilization may emerge stronger; refined and purged of the flaws that must accrue to any human endeavor over time. Or it may crack or break altogether under the stress, and be cast back into history’s smelter to be incorporated into something new.

Without the Mongol horde, China’s Xia and Jin dynasties are not united. Without Vandals, Goths, Visigoths and Huns, the Western Roman empire does not fall, thereby setting the table for modern Europe. Without the Golden Horde, Moscow does not lay the kingdom of Tver low and come to dominate northern and eastern Rus. The courts of Charlemagne, Alfred the Great and William the Conqueror, all born of barbarian invasions (Franks, Saxons and Vikings, respectively) and refined in the fires of subsequent barbarian invasions, never rise at all.

Supercapitals have made EVE’s nullsec barbarian-proof. 

As I wrote last week:

At present, only those with
vast fleets of supercapitals can take and hold nullsec, and only those
who hold nullsec have the means to produce or afford vast fleets of
supercapitals. 

With an unassailable advantage in supercapitals, the lords of nullsec can rest easy on their starry beds, knowing they cannot be dispossessed of their holdings by barbarians coming out of high or lowsec. The proliferation and consolidation of supercapitals into the hands of a few, a phenomenon unanticipated by CCP when they introduced this class of ship, has locked up nullsec’s sov mechanics and led to the current ossification of nullsec space and nullsec politics.

Nullsec, long the public face of EVE Online, is broken. Upon a time nullsec was about the clash of interstellar kingdoms, and the trial of wills. But it has become about risk avoidance, wallet bloat and planned PvP combat. It has been turned into NullsecDisney®; the very theme park version of EVE that the present lords of nullsec railed against in the not too distant past.

I guess the current nullsec landlords find that EVE as theme park isn’t such a bad idea if you’re the ones selling tickets and collecting rents. Many of the nullsec rank and file may think otherwise, but the message from management has been clear: If you don’t like riding the teacups, you can go join the barbarians in the outer darkness.

Happily,nullsec can be saved. And the solutions is a fairly simple one that does not require major surgery.

1) Eliminate supercapitals – Remove them entirely. This class of ship, more than any other, is responsible for nullsec’s current state. Without supercapital drops and bridges the area over which a nullsec alliance or coalition can project force will be significantly reduced as will the the speed with which they can react to threats. This will shrink the amount of space a nullsec entity can reasonably control.

2) Significantly reduce Sov infrastructure hit points so that a large subcapital fleet of barbarians with modest capital ship support can reduce it in a reasonable about of time. This will eliminate the need to have Titan-class firepower behind any play for a piece of nullsec.

Of course, those heavily invested in supercapitals will be displeased with this approach, and I expect the implementation of these changes will be met with much umbrage and many alligator tears. Individual pilots should, of course, receive some remuneration for their pains; perhaps a combination of conventional capital ships and ISK or AUR. However, those most affected by this change are the authors of nullsec’s current dysfunction. Thus my sympathy for them goes only so far and I will not lose sleep over their discomfort. Some small pain of their part is inevitable if nullsec is to be saved. 

These simple changes will revitalize nullsec, breaking up the current coalition blocks, reducing the span of control an alliance can reasonably exercise, and injecting nullsec with a much needed dose of risk. Best of all, it will open nullsec to outsiders not already possessed of vast fleets of supercapitals or endowed with trillions upon trillions of ISK.

They will be the EVE’s barbarian hordes; pressing the current nullsec powers that be, and claiming space for building new kingdoms where the old ones prove wanting. 

– Mord Fiddle

About the Author: Mord Fiddle’s writings are an invitation to high tea in a world of rave parties. His readers gather at http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/ for thoughtful analysis, daring prose, deep insights, and Mord’s tendency to use words not writ nor spoken conversationally since Middle English went out of fashion.

119 Comments

  1. DubbaYooArr

    in b4 "what about all the hours of training! arghgh SP!"

    "you idiot"

    "quit playing eve you suck"

    "do you even play this game"

    "if you want null space form a coalition and take it you hisec bear"

    March 25, 2013 at 3:46 pm Reply
    1. I believe the EVE-appropriate response to your tears is "HTFU".

      March 25, 2013 at 5:33 pm Reply
      1. DubbaYooArr

        My tears? I said in b4 all the tears… Mord Fiddle appropriate response to your whining about Eve Supercaps, HTFU

        Take your own advice

        March 25, 2013 at 8:22 pm Reply
        1. justwaitingforamate

          OMg you guys should meet up IRL and bio mass your selves together… Yeah thats right IRL not URL. Nerds

          March 26, 2013 at 11:34 am Reply
          1. DubbaYooArr

            … what just happened?

            March 26, 2013 at 4:30 pm
  2. EraZ3712

    No duh.

    March 25, 2013 at 3:50 pm Reply
  3. Jesus Loves You

    Just reimburse SP for titan skill (and jump portal skill) and fighter bomber skill.

    The rest of the SP is still useful for other capitals (carriers, dreads).

    +1, excellent idea!

    March 25, 2013 at 3:51 pm Reply
    1. VoC Dude

      Jump Portal is used by BOPS as well.

      March 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm Reply
  4. Good idea

    sounds like a plan +1

    March 25, 2013 at 3:55 pm Reply
  5. Garaboldi

    They could just removed the Sov requirements on the Capital arrays. If you can build these in low sec/npc 0.0 space you would give the smaller alliances/corps a chance to build up their own supercaps and then you could have the fights you want.

    March 25, 2013 at 4:06 pm Reply
    1. Jesus Loves You

      Also a viable solution, but with the very long build times around let me tell you about people with no lives who will run around in lowsec and take notice of every single SCAA they find….. and tell the appropriate over lords for a (small) fee.

      March 25, 2013 at 4:24 pm Reply
    2. M1k3y

      More supers is definitely not a good thing… and supers are always for sale on the forums anyway.

      They are available, they just need to be purchased with isk instead of built with a few freighterloads of materials.

      March 25, 2013 at 8:07 pm Reply
  6. vaga pilot

    CCP will like the idea of hundreds or thousands of useless super-alts being unsubbed.

    March 25, 2013 at 4:16 pm Reply
    1. Jesus Loves You

      Lose 1,000 subs now or lose 100,000 subs later when people figure out the game is no longer worth playing because: Supers rule the world and only people who already have supers can get supers because they can only be built in areas where supers rule….

      March 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm Reply
      1. Rockafella93

        With Eve being the way it is it's hardly unplayable, it's jsut people like you get butt hurt cause you can't be space powerful, not even ccp want that so stop acting like they don't know. or care.

        March 25, 2013 at 4:25 pm Reply
        1. Yoji

          No, players are buthurt because the current setup of Null forcess them to join one of the powerblocks. If a group of 20 players wants to join 0.0 they are forced to either join an alliance or pay for space.

          March 25, 2013 at 4:35 pm Reply
          1. DubbaYooArr

            1. take 20 men and join alliance
            2. earn sov under alliance
            3. build up/grow
            4. make back room deals with enemies
            5. betray and backstab alliance
            6. take sov for self

            I am all for fixing null to encourage a more dynamic and diverse environment with opportunities for smaller groups but the idea that small groups should just be able to enter null just because is stupid. These power blocs built up from the ground up. null is unforgiving, you need to deal with that.

            A group of 20 players should not be able to just set up shop in 0.0 without risk or effort, then when null is filled with thousands of these 20 man 1 system sov holding alliances the new cry will be 'dude its not fair 5 people cant just join null, they have to join one of these alliances or pay to rent'

            March 25, 2013 at 5:29 pm
          2. The Observer

            The problem with that plan is that most of null is a giant blue donut. One cannot simply find enemies…

            March 25, 2013 at 6:52 pm
          3. Drama Dalai Lama

            The "giant blue donut" did not appear because of CCP's fuck up in game mechanics, it was forged completely by those thousands of players that are in it. What you are saying is that ccp should screw over all those players so that a couple hundred scrubs may find "enemies". Just so you know, even removing standings from game won't stop the blue doughnut, it will just make it a bit more annoying to check standings in some out of game list.

            March 25, 2013 at 7:32 pm
          4. The Observer

            I'm not saying CCP do anything other than limit super usage in some way. I could give two shits if all of null was one giant alliance. I just want to be able to do my cruiser roams without getting dropped by dozens of caps/supers. Last rupture roam through delve ended in slowcats, dread blaps, a few dozen supers and a random leviathan dropping on ten ruptures.

            March 25, 2013 at 7:47 pm
          5. fox

            sob sob cry cry….and the supers, titans and dreads couldn't hit your ruptures and if you hung around long enough for the slowcats to get you, you deserve to lose your pissy little t1 cruisers.

            March 25, 2013 at 10:51 pm
          6. Viz the slowcats, bring 'em on. Vulnerable to ewar, can be killed by a modestly sized subcap fleet, don't need a hictor to hold them in place and they cant bridge fleets in. They can be countered and killed. Come out from behind those supercaps and play. 😉

            March 26, 2013 at 11:59 am
          7. Fox mulder v 2.0

            Everybody know that:
            HBC = PL pet
            CFC = PL pet

            March 26, 2013 at 11:27 am
          8. Did you know, EXE is not in the HBC anymore. Your so called Blue Donut does not exist.

            March 26, 2013 at 4:10 pm
      2. vaga pilot

        You know that you need to bring a mixture of supers and subs?
        Gone are the times where you could counter 500 subs with a few dozen supers.

        March 25, 2013 at 4:27 pm Reply
        1. Yoji

          Dropping 500 supers still works.

          March 25, 2013 at 4:29 pm Reply
          1. Bagehi

            It really doesn't. Besides, I'm fairly confident that no one has ever dropped that many supers. In fact, I don't think there have ever been more than 211 supers on a field of battle (and that's combining both sides). A combination of their inability to kill subcaps terribly well with the ability to bump them has made dropping supers alone no longer smart (look at PL supers being supported by Test subcaps every where they go). That said, supers remain a stupid barrier to entry for sov in null.

            March 25, 2013 at 8:20 pm
          2. The Observer

            To play devil's advocate here for a bit, the only thing preventing people from wanting supers gone is the fact that supers, and dreads to a lesser extent, are the only effective counter to slowcats and capital blobs in general. When dual plated abaddons get alhpa'd, you know a fleet is a bit OP.

            That being said, supers (and force projection range in general) are becoming more and more of an issue. That and the consolidation of wealth and power that currently exists, but CCP can't really do too much about the meta, now can they.

            March 25, 2013 at 9:44 pm
          3. Ganicus

            Ncdot & PL when they were doing a joint moving op had over 100 titans and over 200 supercarriers lol. Trying to find the picture somewhere, quite a sight.

            March 26, 2013 at 7:13 am
    2. Yoji

      No one pays $$ for their supercap alt. So CCP wont care. And those 1000+ PLEX's on the market each month makes no difference.

      March 25, 2013 at 4:37 pm Reply
      1. people are retarded

        and you think that PLEXes on market are come from thin air, right? Someone bought them and put on market. CCp earn money.

        March 26, 2013 at 11:24 am Reply
    3. M1k3y

      Those super pilots would have millions of refunded SP they could now put into Carrier and Dreadnought skills, along with the billions in refunded isk for their removed super.

      And iirc theres about 7000 supers in EVE, those aren't likely on an account with ONLY the super toon, but also with other alts the owner uses, possibly even on their main account.
      CCP wouldn't lose all those subscriptions, dropping supercaps (a feature which was added durign CCP's "Look we added a new shiney toy" phase) is the best option for saving nullsec.

      Face it, nobody even uses them beyond sov grinding anyway because they are afraid their neutrals would have a SLIGHTLY larger supercap fleet.

      March 25, 2013 at 8:05 pm Reply
      1. Ganicus

        I would actually be willing to do that. I have both supercarriers and Titan. If it was discussed and agreed upon that all relivant skills SP would be refunded and a fixed but reasonable amount, possibly further compensation ontop was gestured, I'd remold the characters into different specs.
        As for all those younglings in game don't understand, before supers and titans were born or overly used, there was great battles dreads & carriers duking it out. That was far more frequent fun than you get out of using supers.
        So I'd be plus 1 for this.

        March 26, 2013 at 7:09 am Reply
        1. super superpilot

          finelly a super pilot with brains

          March 26, 2013 at 12:05 pm Reply
  7. Rockafella93

    Personally i think that super capitals are very demonized but represent a almost insignificant part of the problem.

    The major problem with nullsec is it's lack of any industry outside of moon-mining and super-cpital production (which adds to the prolification problem) hence the only way to harm a massive null block is to hit the retarded dominion sov structures, which as the author points out is neigh on impossible without some capital (preferabbly super) support.

    However if the state of nullsec industry is changed to the point that it becomes common place for 0.0 markets to be fillied with things built in 0.0 not shipped in from jita like a red cross handout, not only would it drive more conflict (by giving people more oppertunity to kill other people) it would inherintly give 0.0 blocks a vunerability that they cannot reliae on super capitals tyo fix (you can't hot-drop cloaky stealth bombers with titans….) Now this is assuming that by undertaking the fixing of industry in 0.0, CCP also does the intuitive thing and makes 0.0 income more bottom up that top down. (if your gunna make 0.0 industry viable you want to incentivise use, and taking people away from moon's where they are only vunerable for split seconds is always a good thing)

    So if CCP approaches it this way rather than completly erasing a style of play (which no matter how shitty that style of play is, it's just bad buisness) they fix nearly every major problem with null-sec (from conflict drivers to static value of space and the be all end all of moon mining)

    Or… you can just remove your longest subscribers favourite "elite pvp" ships, and watch as 0.0 becomes even more static as no-one can project power far enough to take more sov…. Risk aversion is an attitude, you need to do more than take the bad childs toy's away, you need to give them the oppertunity to be good and kill each other again ( i will never be a parent… promise.)

    March 25, 2013 at 4:17 pm Reply
    1. Rockafella93

      My spelling is horrible i know….

      March 25, 2013 at 4:18 pm Reply
      1. justwaitingforamate

        just biomass your self irl

        March 26, 2013 at 11:34 am Reply
    2. Hmmm. Which of the NullsecDisney rides are you invested in? This is nonsense. Nullsec doesn't need more goodies. The wings have already been ripped off this argument. See:
      http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-farmhttp://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2012/12/farms-anhttp://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2013/01/farms-an
      and (most recently) http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2013/03/farms-an

      No more theme parks in nullsec. Bring on the barbarian horde!

      March 25, 2013 at 5:30 pm Reply
    3. The Observer

      Null industry is fine. There are better refineries, better production stations, and better minerals. The problem is the fact that all of this is so obscenely mismanaged that no one bothers moving thier industry operations into null.

      And before you go sperging about how's "OMG NULL INDY SUXORS!!!1!!" just look at the station benefits. Caldari stations get massive bonuses to research. Amarr stations have a crazy production time bonus (not to mention 20 something slots for ships and another couple dozen for boosters/drugs) and minmatar stations can get 100% refine if they're set up correctly. A constellation with 2 – 3 Amarr stations, a jnmatar station, a gallente for offices, and that's all the production you need. Want to do in ention and research? Do what every Indy alliance does in Hisec and set up a lab tower.

      March 25, 2013 at 7:04 pm Reply
      1. Yes, we are going to waste 100b per system, on getting industry in Null, while importing is cheaper.

        March 26, 2013 at 4:13 pm Reply
  8. VoC Dude

    Reduce station services HP so faggits have to undock when The Horde decides to reinforce some.

    March 25, 2013 at 4:22 pm Reply
  9. sperg

    Praise the Lord. Mord Fiddle, the lord of nullsec mechanics has spoken. Let us all now take up hands and sing, for nullsec has been saved!

    March 25, 2013 at 4:31 pm Reply
    1. You're welcome 😉

      March 25, 2013 at 5:49 pm Reply
  10. caps no no

    Just delete all caps from game and give previous ovenr 1 trit as compensation. Fair deal.

    March 25, 2013 at 4:34 pm Reply
    1. M1k3y

      Without caps (Dreads or their DPS equivalent, Supers) sov would freeze in its current formation.

      March 25, 2013 at 8:08 pm Reply
      1. qweq

        you are retarded

        March 25, 2013 at 8:33 pm Reply
      2. The Observer

        No…no it wouldn't. If anything, it would still be a numbers game. Whoever can bring the most battleships wins.

        March 25, 2013 at 9:46 pm Reply
  11. druid_cilnok

    never. gonna. happen.

    Dont matter how good the idea may seem, it wont happen.

    March 25, 2013 at 4:49 pm Reply
  12. Fletch

    It's not super caps themselves that's the problem. It's the ability to travel vast distances in a short space of time that has ruined the game.
    One of the attractions of EVE was the size of the universe. What's the point in such a huge universe when you can cross it in a few jumps?
    You could remove half the systems in oo sec and not notice any difference. When I first started with EVE the people in The north rarely came into contact with those in the south and the people of the east never met those in the west.
    The thought of supporting someone across the other side of the map in a war was unthinkable not to mention logistically impossible.
    The fact people can travel to support each other anywhere on the map at short notice just leads to bigger and bigger coalitions.

    March 25, 2013 at 5:16 pm Reply
  13. dreeziel

    It is true that something needs to be done. Null sec entities have bloated boarders and so few actual threats to their sov. As long as you have a handful of the right friends and agreements, you have little to worry about. I don't think just removing Supers is practical, or fair. Perhaps just change the sov system, give different systems different values. Some systems require a massive fleet to sov grind, but others have weaker sovereignty structures that a smaller group can threaten, or take. Just give each region 2 maybe 3 of the heavily fortified systems, and the rest can be flipped by carriers and down pretty easily. I agree the fact that Sov should have to be more actively defended.

    As far as the bridging and cyno mechanics, it needs some kind of cooldown. Perhaps even region or constellation wide, a limit as to how many can be used. For example 1 cyno per 30 minutes per constelation. It might need to be limited by whether it is inbound or outbound, allowing only 1 of each per half hour maybe? There needs to be some limit of how much mass can go through it, and how often it can be used.

    There needs to be some restrictions placed on them, so that distances in null and low actually mean something. A large sov holding power that front loads all of it's active players into one area, should be vulnerable from the rear. Current mechanics make distance (or terrain, if you will) irrelevant . That leaves the strategic minds of eve much less to work with. You either have absolute infinite mobility at your disposal, or you don't.

    March 25, 2013 at 5:29 pm Reply
    1. The Observer

      Problem I see there is the ability to sit a tanked up recon outside of a deathstar constantly cycling its cyno. Negates the whole idea of a cyno jammer, really.

      March 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm Reply
  14. lol

    Oh look some high/low sec pub lord is bitching about supers and the fact he cant ninja kill an ihub/station with his 10 man corp. Super carriers are no were near as powerful as they use to be and yet people that do not want to put in the work it takes to taking and maintaining sov bitch and cry how they are imbalanced for some odd reason. The fact is supers and titans cant do shit on their own they are nothing but a force multiplier as the groups in null have thousands of members who fly sub capitals to fight most the battles were supers are usually only used to grind down structure hp. Get over shit lord

    TL:DR
    Stop bitching go take your own space.
    Supers much weaker than use to be and can not fight on their own.
    The nullsec groups have thousands of members to also fly sub caps so they are not the problem.

    March 25, 2013 at 6:11 pm Reply
    1. ReligionIsForTheWeak

      Learn how to use some punctuation and better grammar, retard.

      March 29, 2013 at 9:45 am Reply
    2. Random Dude

      "The nullsec groups have thousands of members " and this is one of the reasons why null is in the state its in. Corps and alliances with hunderds of supers and can feild 20+ titans with cap support and still have 1000+ member sub cap fleet. There is no lil alliance that can stand up to that what needs to happen is limit the amout of supers in a system at one time, make it so only 2 titans on the feild 1 on each side. then things might get better

      April 9, 2013 at 10:32 pm Reply
  15. Inmei T'ko

    Give dreads a major buff versus supers, and remove siege mode OR

    Create a new superdreadnought ship that is poor against structures but excellent against supercaps.

    Then the barbarians could horde again.

    March 25, 2013 at 6:29 pm Reply
    1. Inmei T'ko

      Or make supers buildable and dockable in stations I suppose. Then everyone would have them thus breaking the nullsec catch22. (Blatant plug for my corporation there!)

      March 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm Reply
  16. Green Giant

    You bring in a big new feature of the game, call it bad, and the answer is just to remove it? Titans and supercarriers have played a big part in EVE, and can’t just magically disappear. Think of all their uses in game, and outside of game in media and otherwise.

    A better solution would be to make super caps more vulnerable. How about Dust mercenaries that board the ship and fight for control of the titan? That would encourage and give Dust players a new purpose, and EVE alliances would want to actively recruit and use them. Small alliances could effectively slow down or make it more risky to use super caps. If a small alliance has a group of 200 armored boarding shuttles with marines in them, it might be best not to hot drop supers on the little alliance, and save the titans for larger battles.

    March 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm Reply
    1. EXE

      Dustbunnies should not be able or allowed to affect neither space battles nor sov in any way, shape or form. In fact, I don't see why console kids should be on our server at all but that is a different discussion. Just keep their playgrounds where they don't matter for the big picture.

      March 26, 2013 at 12:30 am Reply
  17. Bloke

    this is all redundant as ccp are reducing the carrier pre reqs,
    Expect more cap warfare.

    March 25, 2013 at 6:34 pm Reply
    1. Doesn't matter if the current lords of nullsec are sitting on all the SCs. Just makes it cheaper for them to train more pilots for the large stack of SCs they already have. It will only make the current problem worse.

      March 26, 2013 at 12:18 pm Reply
  18. The Observer

    Let me first say that I wholeheartedly agree with this argument: supercaps broke 0.0. However, you can't just remove them. Perhaps greatly reduce thier jump range as well as increasing fuel usage. They are moble fortresses, so maybe they should act as such. If this were to happen, I think a few things would happen: 1. Alliances would scale back the amount of sov they own so their supers can reach border hotspots, allowing smaller groups to grab the outlying systems and 2, it would mean intense sov battles would have to be done with subcaps and smaller cap ships, which are vulnerable to dreads and other subcaps (sans "slowcats"). The problem isn't the supers themselves, but the range at which force can be projected. Perhaps not a perfect proposition, but maybe theirs enough compromise to alleviate the nerdrage.

    March 25, 2013 at 6:46 pm Reply
    1. The Observer

      Forgot to mention my thoughts concerning the creation of super carriers (not titans) out of any tower in nullsec and not needing sov. This may just revitalize NPC null as well.

      March 25, 2013 at 6:49 pm Reply
  19. Vorengard

    While I agree with your grievances, and would be happy if all super disappeared, this is not going to happen. What happens to all the isk people spent on building/buying them? If you give all that isk back what happens now that everyone is uber uber rich?

    No, too many problems

    March 25, 2013 at 6:50 pm Reply
    1. None of the problems you describe are as big or bad for EVE as the supercaps themselves.

      March 26, 2013 at 12:16 pm Reply
  20. PL grunt

    Terrible far better would be:

    1. Create a sub cap counter to supers that would require a serious subcap fleet to kill and or protect them.

    2. Make sov based on influence from other system you control, structures and most importantly activity.
    So you need to be active in a system or near a system and you need create and protect structures and upgrades to space, pos, planets to:
    a) Keep sov.
    b) Make allot more PI / moon /mining / exploration stuff from all the upgrades you anchor and use (individual player based income).
    c) Lose stuff to some guy that raids your upgrades and steals your income. Obviously some of the bigger upgrades would including some level of timers to protect differing Time zones and would be worth more (steal moon goo anyone?).
    d) Spend isk on defensive upgrades (Alliance planetary/gate array?).
    e) Raid your terrible neighbours for income and stuff to feed your own sov machine

    There is however no need to grind massive amounts of HPs if you go after the small stuff day after day, bleeding the isk and winning the new sov war slowly inch by inch.

    So if you live somewhere and don't look after it.. someone will come along and turn your assets into isk. If you live somewhere you HAVE to live there.. no more massive tracts of empty space.

    Farms and fields.. and yes PL will still be the scythe..

    March 25, 2013 at 8:03 pm Reply
    1. EXE

      This could be a good solution, but only if CCP first fix the problem that causes vast areas of nullsec to be rather empty. 90% of nullsec is simply not good enough for individual players to make isk in. To have a sov system based on activityyou first need to make sure that it pays better to be aactive in the worst null system then in the best low/hi. If I can't mine because of to few good rocks or lack of refinery (only 1 station per system) and there are no good anoms or belt rats, then why would I as an individuall member go there?

      If every system was usefull we would not need so many. Combine that with your activity based sov and you're getting somewhere. Just don't forget to look at how standings would affect things. Should activities from someone with blue standings help the defender or simply be ignored? Also, if activity in a certain system would increase income potential,then you would have even more incentive to stick to fewer systems. Just as an example, daily mining could gradually shift the spawned asteroids towards a greater concentration of the most mined types and ratting could increase the rate of faction spawns and escalations or the number of anomalies in system.

      Make people want to own fewer systems before you force them to use the ones they want to keep. Carrots before sticks.

      March 26, 2013 at 12:21 am Reply
    2. Farms & Fields won't work as designed. It fixes nothing and is a massive give away to nullsec. You've got enough stuff already. Be happy and stop trying to hoard all the toys in the sandbox.

      March 26, 2013 at 12:05 pm Reply
    3. 1. Create a sub cap counter to supers that would require a serious subcap fleet to kill and or protect them.

      We call it the Welp Fleet. Made specifically to melt Capitals, and supers.

      March 26, 2013 at 4:08 pm Reply
      1. Jesus Loves You

        Except battleships are easily killed by super carriers. Also: Super carrier spider tanks are way OP and a blob of super carriers would mean your welp fleets would be ineffective. So yeah.

        March 27, 2013 at 12:27 pm Reply
  21. FA grunt

    Your all fucking idiots create a ship that moon mines and has a cycle timer of 10 minutes of triage to mine. Fixes all issues with null sec

    March 25, 2013 at 9:37 pm Reply
    1. kullen

      9 min and it will be hotdroped by a super/slowcat fleet and killed.

      March 25, 2013 at 10:03 pm Reply
      1. justwaitingforamate

        bio mass your self, ever heard of an intel channel… Obviously a highsec pub lord

        March 26, 2013 at 11:30 am Reply
    2. WTB IBIS

      I wonder if this might not be a good idea as an improvement for the Rorqual or maybe even the Orca. People have proposed giving small POS shields to rorquals before, combine that with a moon mining module that lets you set up a temporary mining base, could be interesting.

      March 26, 2013 at 12:35 am Reply
  22. Reythc

    There are other options to completely nuking a class of ship that makes EVE unique. For example, allowing super construction in lowsec or highsec again. If they can be built in regions more protected from the reach of the "massive" super fleets the author so fears are ruling null, they give determined alliances a way to build force for a move on established space.

    There is also another less severe option here too; a new class of capital or super-capital. There are still the T2 versions of caps and supers left to be explored, or one can add something completely new. For example, the gap between a battleship and dreadnought is pretty significant; what about a ship that fits somewhere between the two, with a lower SP and material cost? Call them Monitors and allow them to mount a single capital scale weapon. That would allow the aforementioned "barbarians" to build easier counters to super and capital fleets.

    I guess what I'm saying is that nuking something as iconic to EVE as Titans and supercarriers seems decidedly short-sighted and unimaginative.

    March 25, 2013 at 10:06 pm Reply
  23. Chris

    This is kind of a general rule of game design. You don't just take shiny stuff away from players directly, you need to do it indirectly and in a subtle way so they don't notice you are fucking them in the ass. It needs to be something you can present a plausible explanation for that the masses will believe.

    You see, CCP doesn't really want or need the small handful of players that own huge amounts of assets. It's in their interest to remove that concentrated wealth. But doing so directly in the light of day is bad pr.

    My guess is you will see changes to mining that will fix this. Moon minerals will be found in belts and wormholes. Some part of the processing might still require a POS, but the raw materials will be spread out all over and easily mined in something like an exhumer.

    This change would make it so a lot more manpower is needed to control resources. Sov still gives you an advantage, but not a stranglehold. All those small gangs are now a vital part of the sov system, and a whole bunch of people now have more reason to get involved in sov warefare.

    March 25, 2013 at 10:15 pm Reply
  24. Sir Hank

    You cite history and barbarian hordes, and then ask for The Almighty (CCP) to come down and sweep from the field the backbone of the reigning empires army? Look at the Roman Empire…At its height, no-one dare rise against them, as they were well equipped, had superior training, and had excellent leadership and coordination. Yet as you say they were indeed eventually taken down by various groups of “barbarians”. But how did these small clans depose the mighty Romans? Their Gods did not suddenly purge the Legions of their spear and shield. Nor did some omnipotent being undermine the Emipres ability to collect currency. The Barbarians were able to take advantage of the destabilization of the Empire. Rome had grown so large, with so much over head, and so much political in-fighting and greed that it was no longer capable of defending its borders. Rome fell because it grew too large. And the same story can be read throughout history. Empires rise and fall, it is the natural cycle. The Romans, the Persians, the Japanese, the British, the Macedonians, etc. Some vanish completely, while others are sensible enough shrink to a managble size. Look at all this news coming out of HBC….CEO leaving, internal unrest…sound firmiliar? I am only a new player, around a month or so, but I am not discouraged by the “big blue donut”. I can see the big picture, and I think CCP does too. What is the Earth if not a gian sandbox. We grow from young people, gaining competency, some going on to form empires, and those empires wanning, and new ones rising…history repeats itself, human nature doesnt change as much as we may think. EVE is no different.

    March 25, 2013 at 10:20 pm Reply
  25. Goonacaust 2013

    all the people who plexed their way into a supercapital, or spent the hundreds or thousands of hours it costs to by super cap will go fucking berserk, and most people who have supercaps that weren't supplied by their alliance spent rl money for plex to get that ship.

    They will have no use for (in the case of the titan pilot) 80 billion plus isK.

    But let's say that supers were removed and the isk was returned. Those pilots, now sitting on a mountain of isk with nothing of comparable value to buy would amass capital fleets the size of which we've never imagined.

    Also, Capitals are much easier to train, and so you would see fleet fights involving full fleets of capitals that could not be repelled by sub- caps.

    Imagine the goonswarm in four fleets of slow cats. gg

    March 25, 2013 at 10:30 pm Reply
    1. WTB IBIS

      Fucking this. People think inflation in EVE is worrying? Flood the market with bored super players and watch the prices of everything rise.

      March 25, 2013 at 10:50 pm Reply
      1. justwaitingforamate

        Eat a dick i sat in hubs while my alliance mates defended our space… That's how i got my super.. Now go bio mass your self you scrub

        March 26, 2013 at 11:33 am Reply
  26. SephirothSeptim

    I wish so many of the non null sec residents would stop their smear campaign of null sec. All I ever see on this site is how null sec is broken and how it isn't fair that high sec dwellers just cant come take some sov as easy as running incursions… or better yet… we are making too much money in Null sec!

    Yes… it is hard to push into null sec from low sec or NPC null sec. But… people do it… it takes a load of isk and people in fleet and months of grinding! It aint easy… and the money to be had out here… aint nearly what high sec has to offer, with far more risk!

    Do all you whiners really think that posting your sad little views of something that you know nothing about will actually get you something ? CCP would never make the changes that have been proposed during the last year on this site and the people that live in null sec and have for years, would never allow it either.

    March 25, 2013 at 10:32 pm Reply
    1. Heihachi

      Umm, that's funny, always seems like the vast majority of the players bitching that null sec is broken are IN NULL SEC! The super wealthy botters who only want isk are ecstatic about the current state of null; players who actually want to DO something with that isk, like regularly PvP without it having to be scheduled like some toddler's playdate are unhappy, & rightly so. What good is being a soldier if there's no one to fight?

      What's so weird about this whole thing is: A lot of players in null want players to vacate high sec & come play in null go they can have their random good fights, while others, again, usually the rich, want them to stay out so they won't have to share their bounty. It's those players, the hordes of hoarders who want all the goodies to themselves, that are killing null sec, & the game as a consequence.

      What I can't understand is, what good are towering mountains of isk & all this shiny crap if you have nothing to DO with it but sit on it???

      March 25, 2013 at 11:22 pm Reply
      1. Ganicus

        Rmt, thatswherethe wealth goes, majority of it does not go on the grunt in coalition.

        March 26, 2013 at 7:04 am Reply
      2. justwaitingforamate

        god i hope you bio mass irl

        March 26, 2013 at 11:28 am Reply
      3. SephirothSeptim

        You mad bro?!

        March 26, 2013 at 7:54 pm Reply
  27. Morpheus

    What if i told you, super pilots were the new barbarian horde?

    March 25, 2013 at 11:20 pm Reply
  28. justsharkbait

    There is a mentality that is pervasive in real life politics and in EVE politics. The mentality is to incorrectly attack the symptoms of a problem instead of taking the extra time needed to find the root cause and fix that. Instead of having quick emotional reactions to perceived problems, one should instead take a step back and think without putting so much emotion in it.

    This is a prime example of symptom versus actual problem.

    Symptom: Supers caps online
    Emotional reaction: Remove/nerf/shorten range/etc of the supers.

    Actual reason: SP age of players increases over time.
    Actual problem: Any MMO has to deal with age of toons over time. there is no other real end game but to own super-titan. It is to be expected that most players will eventually own one. However, since they are useless solo (thanks to nerfs), it is only reasonable to assume they will group together.

    Problem with removing Supers: Dread carrier blob THIS time with no counter but more dreads/carriers
    Resulting problem with that: Blob problem still exists, just different type now with no counter, no way to stop, and 1,000's more people with maxed out cap toons now free to use multiple types of ships as they are not un-dockable.

    Problem with nerfing supers/caps: Requires more to do what could be done before.
    Resulting problem with that: Greater Blob, NO small groups can be effective at all.

    The flat out bottom line is this:

    When you nerf something you are really significantly nerfing the ability of small groups to exist because the very act of nerfing something makes it less effective as a single unit–thus making more needed, and hurting those who cannot field many.

    This begs the question: How do you help smaller groups have a say without making the blob stronger?

    The answer is you simply cannot. Any change you make that helps the small group will help the large group too. The difference is that any amount of strength you GIVE you small groups makes the blob that much less powerful and needed.

    You break up the blob by not focusing your attention on it because it is not the problem. The BLOB is a symptom. The problem is there is no reason to be a small guy because of how difficult it is to do anything leadership related, sov related, or management/pos related.

    Tunnel vision (focusing on one thing to the exclusion of whats around it) will kill this game and community more then any blob ever could.

    March 25, 2013 at 11:20 pm Reply
    1. justsharkbait

      I should just write an article because commenting on stuff does not leave enough room to really flesh out ideas to give people. Maybe i get around to it. Just so busy in real life.

      Basically none of the solutions that i have read will work on any level proposed (including the "Field" system of sov).

      What is needed is simply to restore balance to existing systems and making changes that help ALL players of the game instead of fixating on ONE or TWO types of play. Give players a reason to NOT want to join a blob and you have fixed the blob problem (over time of course, but change usually takes time).

      March 25, 2013 at 11:27 pm Reply
    2. DubbaYooArr

      Links give the smaller guy the edge and ability to take on blobs, or to fight solo greatly outnumbered.. oh wait, those are getting nerfed.. so much for the little guys.. people complain about being blobbed then complain about fighting against links, one of the main tools to fight the blob. Yes, some ppl abuse links to fight just about everyone but they really are very beneficial to small gang/soloers when it comes to fighting the blob. You can't have you cake and eat it too. If links are required to be used On grid then you can toss another win to the blob as they will be the only ones capable of effectively fielding on grid links.

      March 26, 2013 at 4:40 pm Reply
      1. Pilot.

        What??? They are making gang modules working only on-grid? THAT IS STUPID!!! First they buff T1 cruisers so that noobs can fly 10M Stabber that is as fast as Vaga and now offgrid booster usage by small gangs is getting nerfed too??? WTF dude, and how will be grid defined?

        Really, all changes done recently are just done in favor of carebears so they could take blob of cheap ships and easily fight vet roamers.

        This game is really getting shitty.

        March 26, 2013 at 4:59 pm Reply
        1. Antigoony

          Translation: Somebody stepped on my sandcastle, waaahhhh.

          March 26, 2013 at 6:13 pm Reply
  29. anon

    yeah remove all supers and then suddenly 250+ slowcat fleets will dominate everything with an even larger force projection

    March 25, 2013 at 11:49 pm Reply
    1. No, they won't. Slowcats can't project force the same way supercaps can. Counters to slowcats can be had without sitting on trillions of ISK. Slowcats can be trapped or bypassed and are killable by subcaps. They are vulnerable to ewar, can be held in place without hictors and have no bridging capability, so they can't bring support fleets, Bring 'em on. They'll die in droves.

      March 26, 2013 at 12:12 pm Reply
      1. Marcus Malek3

        Spoken like someone that's never run into a 100 man slowcat fleet. The only counter is titans, and motherships. Ewar it pretty much not relevant as their drones are assigned to a remote sensor, and remote ECCM boosted tech3, which means the only ships that would die in doves would be ewar ships. Carriers themselves have insanely high sensor strength, and the fact that they can refit into ECCM at any moment means they are pretty much un-jammable ten second after your first jam lands, add to this that if your fighting 100+ carriers your without question in tidi, so that ten seconds real time is actually one second in game. As far as HIC's holding them down…… How long do you think a HIC lasts to 700+ sentries? The only reason slowcats need support fleets is to counter motherships escalation. If the objective is to rep, or destroy a structure, there is nothing a subcap fleet can do to stop slowcats from doing that, this has been proven over the last year or so many times.

        Yes NCdot's slowcat fleet was countered……… by motherships.
        I remember IRC's slowcat fleet got countered also, but it was like 30ish slowcats, versus 1000 man GSF subcap fleet., and it took GSF like four hours to kill them.

        March 26, 2013 at 2:05 pm Reply
      2. Rob Zarodnie

        Not sure if you know this or not but unsupported motherships are much easier to kill then unsupported slowcats. Sure motherships can rep eachother just like carriers, but fighters, and bombers are worthless in reality when it comes to fighting subcabs, and they have a very limited amount of them. Sentries on the otherhand are great for shooting subcaps, and carrier can hold 500+ each. I can tell you if your enemy fields 100+, you not going to counter it with subcaps, and if you try you'll likely welp the fleet without kill on carrier. If you think otherwise please write a blog about how the rest of the server hasn't managed to counter it without motherships, and explain to us all how easy it would be.

        March 28, 2013 at 2:06 pm Reply
  30. Oh dear

    Nul and Sov are too complicated, that's why they're dying. Remove the need to drop SBUs and reinforce Ihubs (Ihubs are the worst concept I've heard of) and make it simpler. Make it so all you need to do is destroy the TCU and launch another one in its place, set the online timer to take, say, 12hours to give the system owners a chance to fight back if they can and if they can't then they lose the system. If it was easier to take sov more alliance would attempt to make the jump.

    March 26, 2013 at 1:14 am Reply
    1. nooo nooooo

      You are wrong.
      SOV and NULL dying becasue people like destroying things and killing other players. Furthermore add EVE mechanic with perma losing destroyed ships and you have your answer.
      Free for all, PvP grindfeast area can't work in any MMO where you lose stuff.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:30 am Reply
      1. wat?

        Um, Nullsec is a Free for all PVP grindfest area. They just dont do it anymore.

        March 26, 2013 at 11:43 am Reply
  31. derper derp

    lets fire nerf like bullets at each other. but make sure they dont hit, ‘cos that would make an owchie on my boom boom.

    March 26, 2013 at 1:27 am Reply
  32. nullidude

    Develop bombing: bunker-buster ordenance, capable of penetrating pos shields, inflicting damage upon structures and ships within; heavy bombers to which multiple bomb launchers may be fit, with greter tank and bonuses to warp core stability. This would provide tools for smaller groups of lower skilled pilots to pose significant threat to capital deployments.

    March 26, 2013 at 4:20 am Reply
    1. justwaitingforamate

      fuck i hope you biomass your self aswell

      March 26, 2013 at 11:29 am Reply
    2. EXE

      Your first fail is to think small groups should have relevance in sov war. Field the cap fleets or stay out.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:37 pm Reply
  33. FartingInTESTComms

    Noob ships should get bonus damage against supers so you'll see 500 man reaper fleets blapping Titans. Shit would be hilarious.

    Or I could just quit smoking weed.

    March 26, 2013 at 4:54 am Reply
  34. Dave from PL

    it will never happen and even if it does we have all made our money

    March 26, 2013 at 7:53 am Reply
  35. Tij

    Wonder what would happen if CCP let us fly, build and jump caps and supercaps in Hi Sec?

    Could make for some interesting player driven content.
    Of course Concord would need and opposing ship.

    March 26, 2013 at 9:26 am Reply
  36. nyx owner

    Please send me 30 bi.l for a nyx and 25 bil. for a nyx's char and you can continue your thoughts.

    March 26, 2013 at 11:19 am Reply
  37. droljica

    Who gives a shit about null, most fun was allways in lowsec and wh, and yes even mining/misioning is moar fun than waiting for titan bridge for 6 hours, only to roam back coz, gues what, no1 wants to engage 300 ships, that are backup'd with 12 titans and 34 SC.

    Null, as it is now, is El Dorado for rmt'rs and goons only, sad that ccp managers are way to retarded to comprehend that fact.

    March 26, 2013 at 12:26 pm Reply
    1. True

      Amen , this is so true

      March 26, 2013 at 1:57 pm Reply
    2. meh

      weird that still so many ppl live in that shithole called 0.0 , for waht some abc ore and couple of anomolys?

      How long will it take that all those pleps of thos nulllords start to think wy im helping those rmt homos

      March 26, 2013 at 2:00 pm Reply
  38. dreamer.

    Your so way off i don't even know where to start!

    First off 0.0 needs someway to protect your assets and something that convenient but easily attackable by a smaller roaming gang to gain the upper hand. 0.0 also needs a bottom up approach on the isk it handles. it makes no sense that a 5000 man entity lives in the space but the isk comes from passive income like moongo etc. and don't get me started on renters … in my world renters are parasitic organismes that needs to die out.

    How i envision it:

    # Build the new modular pos, make them truely modular and convert all old stations and pos to the new system once its tested fully.
    # add modules that claim sov on the pos, (most pos in system starts to claim the system).
    # add weak modules that scan system for clokies every X minutes so if you AFK cloak in a system you might get cooked
    # Convert Moon miners to yeild 50% less ore and toss out rocks around the moon for the rest of the 50% yield.
    # create a intel tool that allow Dscan, ongrid intel etc to be automaticly distributed according to your settings.
    #raise the rat value by 20% in nullsec
    # create +20% version of the basic ores that exist in highsec and distribute the denser version to nullsec.
    # in the modular pos allow manufacturing and refining at equal speed as in highsec depending on type of pos
    #allow alliances to create pos in the size of deathstars to defend key systems.
    # allow a pos to be dropped for Character not Corporation
    # make cost of holding sov exponentialy and to be a member of an alliance you have to hold sov in an area (Corps should hold sov and should want to be in an alliance to defend them)
    # allow Alliances to put up a Alliance wide tax that reflect down to the characters in the corporations.
    —- 20% corp tax 5% alliance tax … example ….. no more corp fees to keep alliance running. its automaticly if they manage the tax rate.

    the aim is to create more PVE in space
    and with that create more targets for PVP
    and with more targets for pvp there is a need for more security and a way to counter it.

    ……..

    March 26, 2013 at 12:35 pm Reply
    1. # add modules that claim sov on the pos, (most pos in system starts to claim the system).

      Are you kidding me. Remember the old Sov System? The one that depended on having a POS at most moons in the system. You know how many people almost comited suicide trying to take a system? We had Dread fleets go home because they were OUT OF AMMO!

      March 26, 2013 at 4:07 pm Reply
  39. BitVet

    I wrote before, supers have the defence and attack parameters they are supposed to have. They are just too mobile and operating them comes too low at cost. Supers should have significantly lower jump range, significantly smaller fuel bay, significantly smaller cap recharge and should require much more fuel to jump or bridge than today. In terms of bridging range for titans – that is OK, it just just require 100 times more ozone and clathrates. Dropping 50 BCs on roaming gang of 10 dudes should be so expensive that everyone would think twice. Hotdropping should be blackops business, not titan business.
    The key problem is high mobility and low cost related to supers and bridging. It means that determination of new entity who decide to conquer a territory does not require determination on defender side. They do not need to be present in warzone. They just keep on farming and form up on titan just for timers. Simply, warrior spirit does not favor the brave ones against hordes of carebears thanks to supers and cheap bridging.

    March 26, 2013 at 1:46 pm Reply
  40. Frodo the BOBit

    Even if you remove supercaps, that doesn't change much IMO, for two reasons:

    1) Money. Current nullsec holders have orders of magnitude more cash at alliance level than most people outside nullsec. SRP costs. This means that in a war of attrition, they can sustain their losses for much longer.

    2) Sov mechanics. Grinding systems without supers is tedious. What's stopping the defender from setting all tier timers to something extremely inconvenient (like 3 AM for their enemy's strongest TZ)? The attacker needs to have his pilots alarm clock pretty much every day, shoot at inanimat objects, while the defender only needs to alarm clock for 1 timer, get a fight and win it to save system. Guess who will get burned out faster.

    March 26, 2013 at 6:25 pm Reply
  41. OskaRus

    This is bullshit. Super uber ships are part of this game and they should be as invincible s they are and as costly. I dont think that nullsec is set in stone. Those massive entities are created of individuals and they may decide to change allegiances in a minute. Even super and titan pilots. Nullsec polytical situation might seem stable but i feel its basis degrading over time and it might crumble in itself in some time and spawn many smaller entities.

    About the barbarian thing. PL IMHO owns very little sov but are still considered supercapitally strongest entity in eve. Thus your logic is flawed.

    March 26, 2013 at 11:29 pm Reply
  42. Diesel

    Reduce the availability of the skill books or create a super rare material (not moon goo) required for construction. this would allow attrition to take its toll. A complete removal of supers isn't necessary when it can be done incrementally, and not screw over the existing pilots.

    March 27, 2013 at 1:32 pm Reply
  43. Pilot.

    Many years ago I played game named "Starlancer", there we some special bombers firing superdamaging torpedoes, that required to be fired far from target, they had lots of hitpoints and dealt incredible damage, but these "supertorpedoes" could be intercepted and shot down by a small ship. In this game when bombers decloaked and fired a wave of torpedoes, primary interceptor assignment was to take down torpedoes before they could reach their target. So imagine some special battleships (new role for blackops?) launching bombs with hitpoints and signature (and price) of an armor HAC, targettable and shootable with guns, flying 1 minute to its target, dealing 1mil damage to supercapital sized and 100k damage to capital sized, that could be a counter to supercap/slowcat blob

    March 28, 2013 at 2:58 pm Reply
  44. sub

    would be cool to see an anti supercapital stealth frigate/destroyer with some kind of mine laying module

    March 29, 2013 at 1:55 pm Reply
  45. abc123

    THIS GUY IS A MORON – REMOVE THIS – NERF THAT. It has taken years for pilots and the current blue donut to attain what they have. And in one fail swoop you want CCP to just take away all the work, time and effort. REALLY?

    Even though I am and my alliance (-A-) is a victim of this it is still just wrong. Everything in Eve over time has progressed with time exception three things.

    1. POS Upgrades – they have never had no love!
    2. Station Upgrade- They have never had no love.
    3. MORE SPACE/SYSTEM – New space with longer warp times cross. Maybe you have to deplete your Cap twice just to cross a system which equates to more time to move. Eve is too small. PL has amassed so many titian alts they can deploy anywhere within one half hour. They sit around just looking for someone to punk. Just think if it would take weeks for PL / Goons / Test / and any other blob entity to move just to attack. That would truly change the zero zero landscape. But one can only wish

    March 30, 2013 at 8:32 pm Reply
    1. whatever

      Even Shadoo acknowledged super-capitals (and simple capitals as well) can move too fast across Galaxy. I'd suggest jump-drive to become a separate module with a proper cool-down timer. Another known fact is that supers are too slippery to be caught. I think cloaking device should be banned for them.

      April 1, 2013 at 1:28 pm Reply
  46. Luwc

    Null Sec is good as it is .
    You can't expect to enter the ghetto and not get fucked up by its gang.
    Null Sec shouldnt be the place for subcapital fleets. L2P

    What needs fixing is Sov Grind Mechanics and Null Sec Income Rates aka. give Null Sec Rats a higher bounty . give 10/10 escelations better drop rates and more fancy Ore in the Belts.

    Take local away from Null Sec to give roaming gangs a chance. Maybe make the local beacon a hackable item that can be hacked over a certain amount of time.

    April 3, 2013 at 9:20 am Reply

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