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Gevlon Globin is famous in the Word of Warcraft circle for having mastered the “gold cap”. His EVE journey show a very interesting “outside the box” approach to the game, PVE and the trade hubs, reason for which we invite you to pay a visit to his blog.

The Goons, who fancy themselves as being newbie friendly released their guide. Besides telling poor newbies to rat, they also told “When selling, don’t just accept a Buy Order – you’ll probably lose a fortune for the convenience of a quick sell. Look at all the Sell Orders in the region, ordered by price. Then right click the item again to sell it, and under Advanced put up your own sell order, undercutting the previous lowest sell order by .01 ISK. Remember to check on your orders in your Wallet, to make sure somebody else hasn’t undercut you.”

I’ve been preaching against 0.01-ing since I started to make a billion a day. I wrote that it’s cartel, babbled about price elasticity, shown my own results and this horrible thing is still here. I now try to explain its stupidity as simple as possible.

It is obvious that the cheaper something is, the more people will buy it. If you look at the buy orders, you see exactly that: people who are ready to buy for that price instantly. Of course there are buyers for more money too, but less. If you look at the current sell orders, you don’t see the current market price. You see items that no one bought because they are too expensive. Of course someone might buy them later, but at the moment no one bought them.

Let’s use numbers: there are 5 buy orders of item X are for 1000000, 1000000.01, 1000000.02, 1000000.03 and 1000000.04 and 5 sell orders are 9000000, 8999999.99, 8999999.98, 8999999.97 and 8999999.96. No, it’s not exaggeration, I see such imbalances all the time. In nullsec, for a less common item, it can be much worse. What do these numbers tell you? There are 5 people who want to sell for 9M but can’t, and 5 others who want to buy for 1M but can’t. Do you really think that it’s a good idea to be the sixth guy who tries to sell at 9M?

OK, you open price history and see that once a week one sells for 9M. 9M is good money. You can be the guy who sells for 9M, right? Yes, you can, if you are the lowest seller in the moment when an impatient fool enters. How can you be the lowest seller? By being 0.01 lower than the previous one. This is what they all think. So they update their orders often. If everyone updates with the same frequency, you’ll have 1/6 chance to be the lucky seller. You can increase your chances by updating more often. But they can defend themselves by updating even more often. At the end you’ll be sitting by the market window all day, updating that damn order. I’m still not exaggerating, people (and bots) are doing exactly that.

What can you do? You can set up your sell order for 8.5M instead. Tomorrow you will find that they undercut you by 0.01. Then you update to 8M and you’ll see that some of your competitors disappeared: they sold their items. This is the point! By undercutting deeply, you drive the price to the point where all of you sell. For example you drive it down to 5M and you see that there are 6 sells/week. Congratulation, you reached market equilibrium.

Let me show a real example, when I broke down the price of an implant used in armor battleships in K-6K16, the capital of TEST alliance:


The busy people were undercutting by 0.01 at 37-38M but of course no one bought their stuff. I cut to 25M first, then 23, 22 and look how many sold! I got them in Jita for 14M by the way.

The same applies to buy orders. If you want to buy something, don’t join those morons who update their orders all day by 0.01 at 1M, set your order to 1.5M and. They will “overcut” you. So cut again the next day, until you finally buy. You will see that for example for 4M they bought too, there are 6 buys this week, everybody made a buy. This is the definition of market equilibrium: everyone buys/sells who wants for that price.

OK, so everybody can sell for 5M and buy for 4M? How? Because people are impatient. They are ready to pay some premium to buy now (for 5M) and sell now (for 4M). If you are thinking that you could buy it for 4M and resell it for 5M… well, you are on the way to never-ever rat, mine, mission or pay real money for the game. Being able to afford a titan before you could fly it is just a bonus.

– Gevlon Globin

42 Comments

  1. Nyv

    I don't like your post if it's read by people without market insight.

    People will understand it like "break markets by undercutting like morons", and not read between the lines the subtle "be careful, study the market first, make sure you're not destroying the margin you could make".

    It's probably true in nullsec where there is big margins to be made, but when you are playing on small margins (because someone did what you are talking about, sure), for example, in Jita, doing that could just drive the margin too low and make the market break. You will then sell all your stuff because someone want to relist higher to keep the market going, but without the margin.

    So, yes, undercutting harder to try and reach an equilibrium can work when you're not already at it, but undercutting like a moron when the market is already close to an equilibrium will just break it completely.

    Also, I see it done a lot on markets where people will buy at nearly any price (because they need the stuff now, and because it's small enough not to be interesting to move for it), and keeping the margin big at the price of a few buyers can be good (if you loose 20% buyers but gain 50% on the margin for example).

    It's good to show that undercutting only by 0.01ISK is bad, but it may not be the most noobie-friendly solution, because you could just be playing in a market where you're already at the equilibrium, or close to it.

    February 15, 2013 at 12:11 am Reply
    1. Shattershark

      "People will understand it like "break markets by undercutting like morons", and not read between the lines the subtle "be careful, study the market first, make sure you're not destroying the margin you could make". "

      More fun (and profit) for us then.

      February 15, 2013 at 4:50 pm Reply
  2. Gumpin
    February 15, 2013 at 12:14 am Reply
  3. Gumpin

    captain obvious to the resuce!

    ps, dont delete my tinyurls! :(

    February 15, 2013 at 12:14 am Reply
  4. Gumpin

    captain obvious to the resuce!

    psdont delete just because i have t|ny url in the text admin bot

    February 15, 2013 at 12:15 am Reply
  5. Gam_Samgee

    Or alternatively, you could be a normal person and realize that it's easier to tell newbies not to sell to very low buy orders than it is to give them lectures in economics. Following your advice might be beneficial in the long run, but damned if this whole shitty column is going to go in the newbie guide.

    February 15, 2013 at 12:24 am Reply
  6. greasy fatass goblin

    You sir are a huge douche bag and you should go count your imaginary pennies again

    February 15, 2013 at 12:36 am Reply
  7. Gunnar Williams

    Yea, that's what I don't get, how can I apply this data at all for something like tritanium in Jita where there is hardly any margin for profit as it is?

    February 15, 2013 at 12:38 am Reply
    1. Felix

      This doesn't apply to Jita as it's already a buyers market.

      February 15, 2013 at 12:48 am Reply
    2. qwer

      You can't. This is guide how you should sell items in certain market environment even though it doesn't say it.

      February 15, 2013 at 2:25 pm Reply
    3. Shattershark

      Um.. By looking at prices in other regions?

      February 15, 2013 at 4:28 pm Reply
  8. Teflon_Goblin

    you have reached a new level of dumb with your shit posts: retardilibrium

    February 15, 2013 at 12:54 am Reply
  9. iskbot#1337

    lol … and now try to make this with market and ISK relevant stuff.
    + for no wow comparison in this text
    – – – for trying to explain market economics by items with average sales volumes lower than 5

    February 15, 2013 at 12:55 am Reply
  10. Dude, the last like 4 articles you wrote have sucked hard.
    "Gevlon Globin is famous in the Word of Warcraft " <- go back to WoW.
    "since I started to make a billion a day." <- Why don't you write an article about that? or better yet, a video with your market transaction logs? "I'm so good at eve. After playing WoW made me good at MMO's. So do xyz because I've been playing a year and know more then everyone."

    River, please get better staff.
    I'm going to stop reading EN24 and just use themittani.com. The news is much better presented, and the writers are not ego-dig-douche's. Believe me, i find that amazing being goons are supposed to be huge dicks, they sure write better.

    February 15, 2013 at 1:07 am Reply
  11. Dude, the last like 4 articles you wrote have sucked hard.

    "Gevlon Globin is famous in the Word of Warcraft circle" <- This is eve, we don't care about how pro you are at WoW.

    "since I started to make a billion a day." <- Why don't you write about that then? How much have you made? You've played for a year now right? So you should have 300ish Billion? Make a video, showing what you trade and your market logs. That would be worth reading and watching.

    Just because you've played for a year, doesnt mean that we care, nor does it mean you're good at this game.

    River, please get better staff,
    Another… goon site… has a lot better written content. Even though I hate goons, they have better writers then you.

    February 15, 2013 at 1:11 am Reply
    1. Guest

      Any good writers are poached by that other site. What happened to Marlona Sky writing for EN24?

      February 15, 2013 at 1:50 am Reply
    2. lolwut

      Why should he stop posting gevlon? His posts are hilariously bad… they always get a ton of views and comments cuz people want to rage. 😀

      February 15, 2013 at 2:51 pm Reply
  12. FA grunt

    Oh shit greedy goblin…..the guy that achived some bullshit in wow…..didn't mention wow…..you sir have evolved into a eve player….no joke congratulations I look forward to more articles by you.

    February 15, 2013 at 1:12 am Reply
  13. Eidy

    He is right, though.

    0.01-isking is the ratting version of trading, no respectable trader does it.

    February 15, 2013 at 2:07 am Reply
  14. The_Oracle86

    wow for once greedy goblin, writes an article thats worth its merit. Still pretty standard trading tactics, but at least the article isnt full of bs. GJ goblin.

    February 15, 2013 at 2:23 am Reply
    1. Nyv

      Simple: for once, he's writing in his domain of expertise, trade!
      I'm pretty sure he's good at trading, seeing the results, and he isn't a horrible writer either.

      His failed articles are always the ones wandering too far away from trade. And in most cases, the analysis is pretty good, and the problem is more in the assumptions on which he build the analysis.

      February 15, 2013 at 2:37 am Reply
  15. Markethopper

    "OK, so everybody can sell for 5M and buy for 4M? How? Because people are impatient. They are ready to pay some premium to buy now (for 5M) and sell now (for 4M). If you are thinking that you could buy it for 4M and resell it for 5M… well, you are on the way to never-ever rat, mine, mission or pay real money for the game. Being able to afford a titan before you could fly it is just a bonus."

    I would expect more out of a professed trader than nickel and dime tricks. Anyone who even remotely plays in the market will figure this out, as well as the fruitless decimal war games. If you made your money in this way I should commend you, because you spent your entire time, when not poaching retrievers in highsec, moving through regions (you do work in more than one region correct?) hauling cargo or contracting it to get a marginal 5-10M payoff within a week per item.

    As for advice? Quit playing the hauling game and buy low/sell fair. Not all market skills and price manipulation come from trade skills, there are plenty others that can be used to easily manipulate the market without ever needing a buy or sell order.

    Being able to purchase a titan before you can fly it is great! Spending your time maintaining your market strategy and not actually playing eve is wasteful.

    February 15, 2013 at 3:14 am Reply
  16. Azule

    I think you missed the point of the guide. Goons need a ton of people to start selling at .01 under the price to hide their market bots. If you have hundreds of people start doing this crap, then it will be harder to filter out the bots from the real players. And if you really want to be in the land of tin foil hats, it will give the goons at ccp even more of an excuse to ignore the misdeeds of their fellows.

    I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description of botting; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the goon involved in this case is not that. (paraphrasing of Justice Potter Stewart with regard to the implied CCP attitude)

    February 15, 2013 at 6:32 am Reply
    1. goon fag

      Lol the hate of goons is deep. Yea we all botters, isk buyer's, market sellers, scammers and anything else you can think off.we goons run and rule this game. Resistance is futile
      So uninstall the game. And cry to your mama that goons is bullying you.

      February 15, 2013 at 9:05 am Reply
      1. special monkey

        If we all uninstall the game, then you would have to start eating your own kind, or just stop playing also.

        Not everybody are goon haters, some hate test also!

        And i just want to leave this here:
        Face the facts, in todays eve, goons are the shitstain in you pants that wont come out, no matter how often you wash it. And in general people dont like shit in their pants!

        February 15, 2013 at 12:04 pm Reply
        1. Dreadroth

          at least he admitted he was a fag too.

          Silly goons.

          February 15, 2013 at 2:00 pm Reply
      2. goons will burn

        goons will burn

        February 15, 2013 at 9:06 pm Reply
      3. HBC

        The end of Goons is much closer then they think 😉

        February 16, 2013 at 3:51 pm Reply
    2. zip it

      the boters can just ad a variable between numbers to make the price cut look natural. that wont solve this problem.

      February 15, 2013 at 11:27 am Reply
  17. Silver

    Nice theory but not usable for too many cases.
    Item drop and faction/officer loot yes. But with Items you are producing you can't make that high changes. You need to buy material cheap if you buy it at a point where no one else buys it you can't compete with the production costs. If you sell too low you don't get enough money to replace the material or even crow.

    Further more is the assumption that it wasn't bought because it is too expensive doesn't apply in many cases too. 95% the buyer coming to the market needs Item X, he doesn't care if he pays 25,2 m or 25,1m. Sure he would like to take them for 21m but he will buy them anyway.
    Again, if it is a drop item you can safely undercut everyone else. If you produce stuff you need to leave the market before you make losses.

    February 15, 2013 at 8:22 am Reply
    1. Shattershark

      "But with Items you are producing you can't make that high changes."
      You can, if you make sure that you don't buy overpriced materials or finished goods. Most of the time there is plenty of margin to cut if you really want to sell ASAP. How much to cut depends only on amount of items you want to sell in given amount of time. In extreme cases (stiff competition or urgent need for isk) you can sell just above the break-even point and at least sustain no loss.

      "95% the buyer coming to the market needs Item X, he doesn't care if he pays 25,2 m or 25,1m."
      Would be true if you were only talking about trade hubs. In other places it would be more like "spend some time and bring ten from Jita for 15mil each, or buy one here for 25?".

      "Again, if it is a drop item you can safely undercut everyone else. If you produce stuff you need to leave the market before you make losses. "
      Your logic is flawed. "Drop items that I find myself are free" argument is just the same as "ore that I mine myself is free".

      February 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm Reply
  18. Hykke

    I think market orders should be rounded to the 4 most significant digits.
    that way the market will move faster towards the equilibrium.

    Instead of orders like 9000000, 8999999.99, 8999999.98, 8999999.97 and 8999999.96
    you would get 9000000, 8999000, 8998000, 8997000, 8996000
    I have even considered 3 digits, which would yield 9000000, 8990000, 8980000, 8970000, 8960000, making the Price move even faster, and the trader would have to "pay" more to undercut current prices.
    That you can sell a battleship faster by undercutting prices by 0.01 isk is rediculous

    February 15, 2013 at 8:31 am Reply
  19. dur

    " look how many sold! I got them in Jita for 14M by the way."

    You sold 2 less in the two week period at -10m isk then the previous 2 weeks…

    So you sold less, and a lower price… Way to go.

    February 15, 2013 at 9:07 am Reply
  20. Tired

    Show us on the doll where the nasty trader touched your profit margin.

    February 15, 2013 at 9:15 am Reply
  21. Goons you Daddy

    What you are saying sounds all fancy. But what you are really saying is sell more for less. Not really any secret there that if you lower your prices you will sell more. Hardly a big secret of EvE.

    February 15, 2013 at 9:46 am Reply
  22. rumblow

    "Being able to afford a titan before you could fly it is just a bonus."

    Gevlon, you know that titans can't gank afk miners in high-sec right? A titan won't help your l33t "PVP" one bit.

    February 15, 2013 at 11:13 am Reply
  23. 03' Player

    Calling this "full retard" would be giving OP a compliment… Mintchip makes this guy loook like a professor…speachless

    February 15, 2013 at 3:05 pm Reply
  24. Miner

    Goblin hate for you QQ

    February 15, 2013 at 6:18 pm Reply
  25. Smiling Joe

    Sadly it's hard to keep up with pricing in jita as far as placing sells simply because of the .01 bots

    February 15, 2013 at 10:38 pm Reply
    1. Truth

      don't sell in jita then.

      Use your brain, don't follow the herd.

      February 22, 2013 at 10:29 am Reply
  26. s1ni5t3r

    In 0.0 space this may well be true but in any hi-sec trade hub it's exactly the wrong answer.
    I regularly see people trying to be clever like this and they are imediately undercut by 0.01isk and all that happens is that everyone (including the "clever" undercuter) in the market loses money.
    Good for the consumer but rubbish for the speculator and ruinous for the producer.

    February 16, 2013 at 11:44 am Reply
  27. Understands Business

    Exactly.

    This is customer focus, instead of competition focus.

    Some businesses think they are competing in price against their competitors. Wrong. They are up against their customers, trying to get as much money out of them as possible. Who cares what happens to the competitor? It’s about, can I get money from my customers!

    February 16, 2013 at 7:42 pm Reply

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