mach_ships

This isn’t a large post, yet a very important one which hopefully ends the “is non-consensual PvP is good for a game or not” dabate? No it’s not a decisive argument in either way. It’s decisive in a sense that the question itself is wrong and shouldn’t be asked.

In a game, always a pixel avatar does things against your pixel avatar. In EVE a spaceship comes to blow up your spaceship. Or your spaceship goes to blow up that spaceship. During combat various modules are activated and at the end usually one spaceship blows ups. Does it make any difference if that other spaceship is player controlled or not?

Actually, if the game companies wouldn’t make special tools to identify player characters, we couldn’t even know. Imagine that there would be no local channel and the name of the pilot wouldn’t show up on the overview. You would only see a Merlin or a Retriever or an Erebus. Without these artificial tools you could only say “I destroyed/was destroyed by a Merlin”. Would the game be any different? People die to rats all the time. Do you think this player is happier that his 7B Machariel was lost to Blood Raiders instead of xxPizza?

The question that you should be asking is “should people be defeated in the game or should they always win?”

The answer of WoW is “they should only win”. The worst thing that can happen to you in WoW is simply not advancing. And no, PvP doesn’t change that, if you enter a battleground and you capture zero objectives, score no kills and totally graveyard camped, you will lose nothing and earn honor points. Blizzard could advertise their game with “everyone is a winner here”, they don’t do it because it would scare away non-players and decrease the self-esteem of the bad players who are very sure that their progression has anything to do with their skill or effort instead of welfare given out by the developers.

PvP being consensual or not is a completely irrelevant point. You can easily design a game with consensual PvP only (or no PvP at all) and yet with losses: Diablo hardcore mode is a good example. Similarly the non-consensual PvP in WoW PvP servers (bored top levels oneshot leveling newbies) doesn’t change WoW as the victim lost nothing but a few seconds. While evaluating the game, ignore PvP status and seek if the player has a chance to lose or he can only win regardless of which buttons he pressed.

When players and developers focus on the PvP status instead of loss status, we get the chimera of EVE highsec. It is practically safe PvE-wise, NPCs don’t gank you at the gates, belt rats can be handled by T1 drones of mining barge, mission rats rarely if ever kill missioners. On the other hand PvP-ers can kill ships at will. The two must be matched. If highsec is meant to be a safe place where people can lol around, than PvP losses has no place either. If highsec is meant to be a risky place where you get some backup from the Empire NPCs, then the pirate NPCs should be much more aggressive. The problem of the newbie is that he can lol around at will, everything is nice and shiny and then bang, suicide ganked and podded with all his assets going down. If he’d be losing frigs left and right to scramming mission NPCs in the end missions of the career agents, then he’d both be expecting losses and also learn to tank his ship at the cost of cheap frigs instead of battlecruisers. If belt rats in 1.0-0.8 would be serious risk to his Venture, he wouldn’t be losing untanked Retrievers in 0.5 to Catalysts. If Guristas would suicide gank his Badger I on a gate during a L2 hauling mission, he wouldn’t lose a Badger II with 300M cargo.

The infamous learning curve comes from the game being incoherent: laughable NPCs + vicious players. Either tame the players by taking away their ability to hurt other players or buff up the NPCs so the newbie can practice on his own speed.

PS: You laughed on 300M Drakes or 100M T1 cruisers? Then you’ll love this!

– Gevlon Goblin

81 Comments

  1. CJD

    Oh no, not again…

    February 12, 2013 at 10:08 am Reply
  2. godsdebriss

    I agree many, if not most, miners are using ships with close to no tank. If they know the system is heavily ganked, why – ffs – aren't they simply using procurers or skiffs? It would make my voluntary job, being a good samaritan, a lot easier if I had at least some time to buff up the tanks a few more seconds. But no, instead they choose for maximum efficiency with the hull of a flying coffin of about 15k ehp. Not that it matters much if opposed against 6 cats with an average of 400-500 dps, but at least I would have a chance to save them, even if it was a little one. So the question that matters for me: should there even be a chance for you of saving a decently tanked mack out of the hands of those horrible cheap fitted rat-cats? Or better: must the ratcats always win?

    February 12, 2013 at 10:10 am Reply
  3. mat

    As always you've put you mind to the question and come up with absolute bullshit! Eve is hard yes congratulations you read the comments on you past post about PvP being easy aka I gang ark mines and call myself elite! I was a pirate for a long time and had no issue killing anyone in lowsec because they chose to come in. The took the risk! In empire you are removing one sides choice. Empire has enough PvP with wardeck can flipping and soon dueling it doesn't need suicide ganking

    February 12, 2013 at 10:13 am Reply
  4. Brainz

    first I was unwilling to read this.

    but I did and I agree. Telling people something is "high sec" and then it isnt, is bad. In my opinion CCP should regulate sec zones more actively. The most big kills happen in high sec, because ppl like freight club trick stupid logistics people. I never fell for any of their traps, because I am a paranoid person. I saw 1-2 times, when I was in war with them suspious activity with my jump freighter pilot. On the other hand CCP has to alter 0.0 more often. Make NPCs harder, switch parameters more often. It is bad to make 0.0 mre secure than high sec. It helped create these mega empires, which destroy the game.

    Also CCP should make the eve universe smaller. I.e. what is the point of all these 0.7 high sec systems in Amarr, which are never visited or in 0.0 of hundreds of -0.1 systems, which turn roams into 100+ jumps and in average a player needs 2-3min to move and jump next system. It kills the action.

    These are the things CCP has to change. Not god damn ship stats for more than a year. this is ridiculous. I hope CCP gets, what they deserve – less players, so they have to fire some dickheads and have to reconsider, what they are doing.

    February 12, 2013 at 10:19 am Reply
    1. ano

      Reason for huge systems or many systems is the potential for growth in the member base.

      as for high sec which is not really high sec people should just learn the game mechanics.

      February 12, 2013 at 11:29 am Reply
    2. GoBackToWOW

      You sir truly have no Idea what you are talking about. You realize that freight club hangs out in low sec systems waiting for stupid jfs and freighter and caps to make mistakes. When a carrier dies to freight club its because he cyno in above a pos not because he was scammed by someone. Learn to eve.

      OP eve being a cold dark place is why I play. Wow was the most boring game ive ever played. If you want to make comparisons then just go back to it.

      February 12, 2013 at 11:53 am Reply
      1. brainz

        Dont out yourself as douchebag.

        I just play the game since many years got mor than 10k kills overall. I do not dislike freight club. they do great work. But there are always some things, often after a while declared exploit or patched, which really suck and are the opposite of what the game is declared. Like I said. I am a paranoid person. I know, they wait with a neutral alt, when tehy war dec, so I jump my JF in high sec. I watched their neutral scout waiting with my neutral scout.

        but these things turn off many players. It is hard to accept to be fooled in such a way – in high sec. I have no objection in 0.0 Like I said 0.0 is way to easy. I hate it. The most stupid players are tody in 0.0 alliances like Goons or Test – because it is saver than being independent in high or low sec.

        February 12, 2013 at 4:29 pm Reply
        1. Not a Pet

          Look. High sec is safe enough already. Those who get gankef are those who dont take precaution. Even in the safest country on earth, you can still get gunned down on the street and cops will show up in time to take a phoro of your corpse. It shouldnt be any different in EVE. If you are 100% safe, you dont learn to take precaution.

          February 12, 2013 at 5:57 pm Reply
    3. Ze Noob

      make the EVE universe smaller i just can't fathom this getting worse maybe make high sec smaller that sounds good but if anything the EVE universe needs to get bigger and maybe a few low sec trade hubs u know so then non-care bears with added risk ofc just to make it fun, can buy stuff however the idea of making EVE all squishy happy time like wow outrages 9 out 10 EVE players.
      EVE is meant to be a game where it can all go bad if u are too stupid to put those PLEX's in a stealth cov ops or cloaked hauler then u deserve to get ganked that's the way it's always been and that's the way it should always be.
      It can also go from bad to good for example imagine being the gankers who gank the ibis full of PLEX's when the loot fairy says yes. Risk is what makes EVE what it is, it is what makes EVE an amazing game stop trying to wreak EVE because the day EVE turns into WOW is the day I stop playing there is no need for 2 WOW's in a world that is tired of hearing about the first one.

      February 13, 2013 at 11:14 am Reply
  5. notimportant

    retrievers can be tough opponents! is there a video of that solo pvp masterpiece?

    February 12, 2013 at 10:23 am Reply
    1. NoTech
      February 12, 2013 at 1:30 pm Reply
  6. Brainz

    addition to the roams: How often did I do a roam, maybe I lived in HED-GP. Made a roam to Doril/Curse. Along the way I have to go, bc RL. Next day direct way was blocked, because I had a big ship and camped. Then go through high sec. 20-30 jumps. People waste hours and hours and hours to just get their shit solved.

    addition to "parameters should switch in 0.0" I mean not just NPCs. It can be many things. It can be moon goo. In nature every mine depletes and it does not just respawn the next day. Or there could be some funny cosmic catastrophies, which randomly strike. In opposite of courese players need something as compensation, higher rewards in short term. I hate nerfs, which bring just negativity.

    February 12, 2013 at 10:29 am Reply
  7. broadcast

    Seriously?
    Why is a WoW fanboy writing articles about why EVE should be more like WoW?
    This is forum grade rhetoric which is where it belongs so it can be trolled to death and forgotten in a day.
    What the hell is it doing on an 'EVE NEWS' site?
    I came here to avoid the propaganda of mittani but this reeks.
    Whats the third article going to be: "My 1337 'core competency cert' adventures"?

    February 12, 2013 at 10:29 am Reply
  8. trol is as trol doh

    I must admit high sec is a much duller place without can flipping — i used to enjoy flipping i t1 frig or destroyer and seeing what turned up to engage you. Now that the whole system can engage you just makes it no fun — yeah i hear you shout coward. You used to get good fights from miners. Now all they do all day is launch drones lock roid, next roid then station, No real risk except gankers. Not a fan of gankers myself and no ive never been ganked. I prefer a fight not alphaing peeps off the field. This new dueling system seems a tad ghey. Throwing down the gauntlet with nothing to gain or lose.

    February 12, 2013 at 10:48 am Reply
  9. Akrasjel Lanate

    This dude again

    February 12, 2013 at 10:54 am Reply
    1. WoW! You're an idiot

      I don't understand why he thinks anyone who plays Eve should listen to his nub opinion. No matter how big he claims his wallet is it will never inflate to the size of his worryingly psychotic ego.

      Nobody gives a fuck about your opinion GG, what makes you think you know better than people who have been logging into Eve for years while you were logging into Hello Kitty Can I Has Some Free Stuff? Plain insulting, but that doesn't appear on your radar does it? Psycho.

      February 12, 2013 at 11:21 am Reply
    2. rumblow

      I just had a read of his blog again. I gave him the benefit of my doubt a few weeks ago. Even defended him a bit. But having read a few more posts of his, I can confirm he hasn't got a clue about EvE at all.

      He thinks he is "winning" EvE whilst others are "losing" EvE. Not only is such a concept in EvE laughably stupid, he believes he is winning EvE by ganking afk non-combat pilots. The Dunning-Kruger effect could have been defined by Gevlon / Greedy Goblin guy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Krug

      February 12, 2013 at 2:44 pm Reply
  10. The_Oracle86

    The infamous learning curve of EVE Online is what makes it one of the best mmo's out on the market. If anything, the last expansion gave the bears huge advantage over the griefiers, but thats beside the point. The point is, only the strong survive EVE Online. The players that you accurately put it, get killed then come back stronger by adaptation. Most players quit in frustration. These are the players we don't want because they don't define the game in any beneficial way, the learning curve is just fine, if anything needs to be a little harsher. Cuz it's no where near as harsh when i was a noob.

    February 12, 2013 at 10:54 am Reply
    1. hmmm

      just because the pirates can't kill shit as easily anymore does not mean that bears have the "Advantage."

      February 12, 2013 at 12:04 pm Reply
      1. CJD

        So true. Over the past few years, gankers have steadily been reaping the rewards power creep that has afforded them cheaper and cheaper fire power. A 14K alpha strike before Tornados existed would have meant sacrificing an expensive battleship. Various buffs to other ships have all meant that ganking is becoming easier and cheaper.

        However when carebear ships get any sort of a buff, the tears flowing down gankers cheeks could fill lake michigan 3 times over.

        February 12, 2013 at 2:33 pm Reply
      2. The_Oracle86

        Actually, in comparison to the old days they do have a HUGE advantage. In the old days bears literally couldn't do anything until the gank was done. Now….. with tankier exhumers, kill rights, new criminal flagging system and more expensive war decks the bears have more advantage then the griefers do which is the way it should be. But don't say they don't have an advantage, just because majority of them are afk mining not paying attention to local or their overview is their own fault.

        And lets not forget what the bears "ADVANTAGE" has done to the markets. A very clear indicator of what happens when the sharks cant keep their prey's numbers down. A battlecruiser that i payed 25 mil for a year ago i now have to pay 50 mil for……….

        February 13, 2013 at 1:21 am Reply
        1. eh?

          So you're essentially saying that mining carebears are the cause of the recent massive inflation in eve because they now have an "advantage" over gankers?

          Even if this "advantage" were real and tangible, which it isn't, within the sandbox market of eve, the more minerals being mined, the cheaper the item cost. This is probably the most basic of economic concepts. You know, supply & demand.

          For someone who calls himself the Oracle, you really don't have much of a clue.

          February 13, 2013 at 1:23 pm Reply
          1. The_Oracle86

            Actually you obviously haven't been playing the game long enough to remember the facts. Best fact to remember is when CCP went on the bot banning spree and banned 5,000 accounts all in one hit……… do you know what that did to the market?????????

            That's right Mr. Anonymous, market prices plummeted across the board. All them mining bots and market bots gone……

            And the basic principles of supply and demand is very easy to understand. But what your failing to understand is that this is a game not reality, and unlike in reality we can't cheat at life. So going back to these advantages………… before bots were easier to gank therefore like mother nature, of predators keeping the population of their prey down. Now that bears are hard to gank & grief you now see the problems with markets….. i hope. See im still the Oracle for good reason <span class="idc-smiley"><span style=""><span>:)</span></span></span>

            February 14, 2013 at 8:30 am
          2. The real one

            You appear to be wandering off topic, let me help you with that! You basically said: Due to it being harder to kill carebear miners, the cost of your ship has now doubled. It's up there ^^^^ in case you don't remember.

            Let's take it step by step. Remember, this is you saying this, not me or anyone else. I'm just breaking it down.

            Miners are harder to gank >>> Gankers can't keep carebear miner numbers down >>> There are now more carebear miners >>> There is more ore being mined >>> There are more minerals in the game.

            Now a FACT: Minerals are the sole raw materials (ignoring BP) from which your 50mil ISK battlecruiser is built.

            So, essentially, YOU are claiming that:

            A GREATER SUPPLY OF RAW MATERIALS has caused a 100% INCREASE IN COST OF YOUR BATTLECRUISER.

            That is the logical breakdown of what you are saying. Please be clear, I'm not saying your claim is logical, it's obviously not. It's obviously ridiculous. Anyway, The_Oracle86 – I'm calling you out.

            Either substantiate / qualify your claim or admit that YOU ARE TALKING 100% COMPLETE BULL.

            The floor (flaw?) is yours and the world is waiting…

            p.s. Please avoid obfuscating things by mentioning bots, "cheating" (wtf?) and other stuff that has zero relevance to your claim regarding carebear miners not being ganked causing ship costs to double. Also please drop the attempts at discrediting people by making stuff up about them. Thanks!

            February 14, 2013 at 12:14 pm
          3. The_Oracle86

            You just repeated yourself. It seems you've completely missed the point and this argument has gone over your head.

            Now your opinions point out pretty basic mode of RL. "the more abundant a resource is the less valuable it is." However EVE is not RL, what you can't seem to grasp is the existence of Market Bots and their counterparts (Mining and PVE bots who supply them with the goods to trade) who constantly escalate prices.

            http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog

            Now way back then, market prices only went down about 10%, nevertheless proving the effects of bots therefore not "obfuscating things" :) . However back then the bears were more easily griefed therefore more easily managed. Thus due to market prices immediately rising mere months after the "Carebear syndromes" (Exhumers, Crimewatch, War Decks) were rebalanced. It's pretty safe to say that making the bears harder to kill has certainly had a detrimental effect on the market. There you go my sweet friend, argument substantiated, back to you………..

            ps. Dont troll a troll. Thanks!

            February 14, 2013 at 1:04 pm
          4. I always imagined market prices have gone up because of two main factors, one without bots minerals actually have to be worked for, increasing their value in the eyes of the producers, secondly, with less bots there are less resources being generated overall resulting in higher prices.

            As well changing how drones work has changed the drone regions from an endless supply of free zyd and meg over into another region just like all the rest, I suppose it is possible that the combination of dead anom bots and changed drone region mechanics could be viewed as more significant that either of the two points I made earlier.

            As to empire ganking, it is still stupid easy. Anyone can do it. In their sleep. It takes no skill or capability, the only thing you can say about it that is at all intelligent, is whoever initially figured out that it was possible. We kill billions in barges every weekend, and all you need to do if they are getting wise to your efforts and start to "tank" their barges (useless efforts in most cases) is simply move to another less suspecting region or add another t1 cat.

            February 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm
          5. The_Oracle86

            omg these people don't fuckng read do they, and you clearly didnt read the link in the post, that statistically displayed market effects of botters. People keep saying the same obvious thing, the more abundant a good is the less valuable it is. In the real world this is true, a toddler can agree to this. What people seem to be struggling with is that EVE is not the real world and it has things such as Botters! You can't bot in real life can you? You can't cheat at life can you? The effects and consequences of botters therefore cannot be measured by the simple rl fact that the more abundant a resource in eve is the less valuable it should be…… it's obviously a little bit more complicated then that and that due to link i placed in the post above, botter's have an adverse effect on the markets despite there being more goods.

            PS. – I never said ganking was hard, just said it was harder.
            – How does 'we' killing billions represent all of eve's ganking statistics before and after the fact.
            – Why are you giving advice on ganking? It's neither relevent nor on topic

            February 14, 2013 at 2:03 pm
          6. The real one

            Awww snowflake, don't melt! You have already given us the link, which along with your explanations, shows that ganking carebear miners is probably getting easier as indicated by the rise in ship prices. Don't be angry because you were completely wrong. Shit happens sometimes eh! Just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back on with errr whatever it is that you do best.

            February 14, 2013 at 11:27 pm
          7. The_Oracle86

            sigh i give up trying to educate the peasants…….. spose only the few can be brilliant.

            February 15, 2013 at 2:26 am
          8. The real one

            You were schooled and educated by me in this thread. It's up there ^^^^ – see the one by me that you haven't replied to? It 100% irrefutably destroys your argument using the link that you posted. I'm glad you took my advice of "get back on with errr whatever it is that you do best.". that being pretending you are somehow superior to others. You sock it to 'em snowflake!

            February 15, 2013 at 6:34 am
          9. The real one

            Hmmm so, you're proving that "Carebear miners being harder to gank has caused battlecruiser prices to double" by ignoring the worlds knowledge of economics and stating that there are bots in EvE and that they affect the market and because there are bots in EvE that affect the market in EvE which don't exist in RL and so markets in RL are different, all proves that harder to gank carebear miners will cause a massive increase in battlecruiser prices.

            Dude! I think I finally get you! Let me try, let me try…

            I think the earth is cube shaped, and I can prove this because I've just had cheese on toast, with ketchup! Boom mofo! I am right and the world is wrong!

            I'm sorry, that was a bit facetious of me. But your trolling is poor, though you have been entertaining. Like a clown. Best bit was this though…

            You state how bots, and I quote, "constantly escalate prices". You then provide a link to prove it! Now that is some serious shit right there, links and everything to prove that you are right! Only…

            The article you linked has a graph which very clearly shows an instant INCREASE in prices of around 60% when they banned a huge number of bots. So these things that you claim "constantly escalate prices", when removed, cause prices to scream skyward. Why it appears as though bots decrease prices! No fucking way man! Who'd have thought?

            I do believe you've just shot yourself in the face and have shown us that EvE obeys the standard world-wide economic principles of supply and demand and that your posts and claims really are chock full of BS.

            All of this does make me wonder though, are all your posts full of the same brown stuff? You're certainly a very special snowflake indeed. Bye bye little snowflake, don't melt away now…

            February 14, 2013 at 2:36 pm
    2. also86

      "only the strong survive EVE Online"

      Or so we tell ourselves…

      February 12, 2013 at 12:42 pm Reply
    3. NoTech

      Yes of course and CCP makes this whole game so our personalities could thrive.

      February 12, 2013 at 3:02 pm Reply
    4. eeert1

      the fact that the learning curve is asymptotic until a certain point and then flatlines to easy mode for developed players in massive corps? yeah that's really attractive to newbies i'm sure.

      February 12, 2013 at 4:38 pm Reply
      1. recollector1973

        So, do you think that a bodybuilder that trained for 10 years should able to be defeated by a guy who trains for like 6 months?

        Those players you talk about spent 6+ years to get where they are…AND still be owned by 10 frigates.

        Idiot.

        February 13, 2013 at 4:36 pm Reply
  11. VoC

    I like how this guy is mentally stuck in WoW dumpster, yet keeps on pretending to be an oracle.

    February 12, 2013 at 10:59 am Reply
  12. dude

    what a fail article go back to wow

    February 12, 2013 at 11:07 am Reply
  13. Link

    Believe it or not, this article has validity, and can be summed up by 1 word.

    Pacing.

    Very few people realize, or get good at it. Even Designers of many years of experience. It's a constant battle, how do we create compelling game scenarios that challenge players, allow sandbox moments, provide player entertainment, etc… while maintaining a flow and pacing that equips players to succeed without spoon feeding them, or creating a rock-climbing scenario where all you have is shoes, and a climbing axe.

    There are great suggestions in there, and it comes down to this, Eve Online has Designers who have spent their life crafting an MMO, and have very little experience of pacing outside their own game. A lot of Designers (especially the Eve guys, having met them at GDC), get big heads, and likely don't bother to learn from great examples of pacing from other games, from little 2D games like Megaman X, to wonderfully constructed Triple A titles such as, Starcraft and Thief 3. Hell, even really difficult, unforgiving games like Dark Souls have fantastically crafted flow, that both challenges the player, without ever making them feel frustrated (due to things out of their control) or angry (due to completely unexpected events).

    This is a wonderful little article that only begins to cover the tip of the Iceberg. Think of the game from a Game Design perspective, and you'll soon realize which games are designed well or not.
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4032/beyond

    February 12, 2013 at 11:10 am Reply
  14. Treefolk

    "…untanked retrievers…"
    hhhehehehe
    A retriever doesn't have the CPU/PWR to possess a decent tank, nor the slots. Fitting any sort of tank would also fantastically murder your mining yield, which is quite amusing.

    February 12, 2013 at 11:18 am Reply
  15. Nullsec pilot

    So basicaly you want null sec everywhere, where farming anomalies or doing missions is so hard that you need to fleet up to even get some isk… Thats for are Incursions my friend…

    You want EVE to be farming isk UNfriendly to ALL pilots… so we just would not afford to buy PLEX and instead we shall pay monthly subscription and then buy PLEX for real money to get isk for pvp in game ? Do I undestand it right?

    I dont know if you wanna kill EVE, but it seems so pretty much to me.

    February 12, 2013 at 11:57 am Reply
    1. hmmm

      u don't need a fleet to make isk in nullsec. if u do then maybe your just fail. anomalies can be done with 1 toon. granted the ded complexes need more but that is ok.

      February 12, 2013 at 12:02 pm Reply
      1. Nullsec pilot

        Read what i wrote.. i was talking about what he wants to be EVE, not that I see it so. But i agree with you there.

        The point is, that pilots are now more skilled, they know how to avoid gank, gate camps etc etc, so the average pvp or pirate Joe is now frustrated about the lack of tagrets.

        If you cry about EVE, that it is a carebear pony wonderland then you failed, cause Eve has not become safer or less dangerous. Its because pilots have learned how to counter you, how to survive in Eve and cause you didnt adapted to it.

        This is not a post against you my friend "hmmm", i just wanted to write how I feel it :)

        February 12, 2013 at 12:38 pm Reply
  16. Onion-y Goodness

    4 whole paragraphs before a WoW mention. i was hoping this would be an "i was on peyote when i wrote that last article, sorry about that" and instead we get more drivel. please piss off back to wow. or go bother the ppl playing minecraft, anything really, just go away.

    February 12, 2013 at 1:02 pm Reply
  17. NoTech

    Yeah all true, but you forget what players WANT. Non-consensual PvP means that one party doesn't want to be attacked. The attacker is mostly bored/looking got LoLs and the attacked cannot do anything about it (either due to skills or experience or ship, or all of them). And if you listen to the Fans of non-consensual PvP (Gankers/Griefers) they'll say something like "Play WoW", "Eve is harsh", "GTFO Carebear". They do it mostly because they have the power to do so and as Lincoln once said: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." And now rain some minuses….

    February 12, 2013 at 1:38 pm Reply
    1. rane

      Bullcrap man. this is EVE. it aint friendly and it teaches hard lessons. if u undock you consent to pvp. the only safe place in eve is a station and hopefully that will chenge with the dustys just like ur own house can be robbed or u be attacked by a bunch of bored teen's in the street for no aparent reason… adapet improvised and overcome! thats EVE in 3 words… cant take the heat? then yes, go play WOW or any number of "always win" games and leave us at least one jungle to be animels in…

      February 12, 2013 at 2:34 pm Reply
      1. NoTech

        Well, couldn't make a better example. So it's your game and it's your way or the higway…..interesting. But it's safe to say that Eve won't last another decade if the attitude of some players don't "adapet"….

        February 12, 2013 at 2:56 pm Reply
        1. rane

          the point is eve is the fact that u can lose EVERYTHING in a heart beat… thats why the PVP is so intense. u can lose… for real… its not MY game or YOUR game… but its the only place where a player can lose everything he has or a corp… we cant get it any where else then why kill it here as well?? i am usually the victim coes i am from a weak corp' and been griffed for most of my time in eve and if it wasnt dengerous to undock i would have been playin the game for almost 3 years… this game is supposd to be chalenging and the fact that u can die any where any time and LOSE alot is part of it. if u dont want to die in high sec u will not be killed… be good at what u do learn how to avoid traps. as i said: adapet adjust and overcome…

          February 13, 2013 at 10:36 am Reply
          1. NoTech

            All true what ur saying, but I'm missing the point whr ppl that want PvE and not PvP have THEIR fair share of the game too. Your philosophy is that everyone has to ADAPT to PvP and if they are failing they don't belong in this game. And that is short sighted and egoistic, because you FAIL to see that there are different approaches to a problem. So its YOUR game and YOUR way or the highway, because the others FAIL to adapt. Thats so ultra darwinistic that even nature doesnt work that way.

            February 13, 2013 at 11:14 am
          2. dood

            Maybe you are too young in mmos but there was such a project years ago when ultima online ceated trammel. Result: creating a safe space kills the unsafe space and then the game.

            February 13, 2013 at 9:45 pm
          3. NoTech

            Safe Space ?? Have you seen the stats lately ? Most kills are in High. And can we please not start this comparing nonesense ? UO is not Eve, WoW is not Eve or any other game. It's true, Eve is a harsh place and I rly like it. But you can't be that shortsighted to see if Eve doesnt get a broader playerbase, there won't be an Eve anymore.
            If someone is that bored from his own life, that he ganks/griefs other players over and over again, he's killing their fun in the game. So they prolly won't play it anymore; Result: Eve getting filled with spoiled egoistic "only child's" that have the attention span of a goldfish and a vocabulary that makes ur eyes bleed.

            February 14, 2013 at 10:54 am
  18. Lionel Joeseph

    I think it may be time to start to categorize games differently. Forgive my old man musing here. But back when i was young and you picked up a game that game did it's best to kick your ass until you learned to play it then and only then could you even think about finishing it.

    Nowadays we have these games that like he said are literally designed to be literally fool proof. And when a bigger fool comes around the game is patched to the lowest common denominator. Therefore these games should called Entergamement, there not there to actually give you a challenge just provide you the illusion of challenge. Which is usually equates to a grind since in the developers minds time=challenge?

    And then we have games like EVE that are a little more old school in their thoughts. Forcing the player to adapt to the game rules and punishing them when they don't. Yes rats could be a little more harsh and missions need an overhaul like Rosanne needs a diet, but still at it's core EVE is pretty hardcore. Not as hardcore as it used to be hell not even as hardcore as games from bygone years. Games like EVE should simply retain the moniker of games since they are more in line with what original idea of them was.

    As per usual just my opinion. And if you agree or not that is completely within your rights.

    February 12, 2013 at 1:54 pm Reply
    1. rane

      that is so true… rats should be much more adapt. eve needs to be harsh out side of 1-0.8…

      February 12, 2013 at 2:28 pm Reply
  19. iskbot#1337

    stopped reading at "The answer of WoW is …"

    February 12, 2013 at 3:11 pm Reply
  20. dani

    I want to see that:
    "If Guristas would suicide gank his Badger I on a gate during a L2 hauling mission, he wouldn’t lose a Badger II with 300M cargo."

    Suicide ganked by NPCs…. hum I also want to see ZOR performing hara-kiri, or Kruul crashing his ship in an asteroid, or the Damsel running away naked ….
    Oh wait!?

    IF YOU WANT MORE CONTENT, GO OUT OF HIGH SEC AND DISCOVER EVE!!!

    Tiered or retards bitching about, how eve is too hard for the new players…

    February 12, 2013 at 3:14 pm Reply
  21. dontcomeback

    Actually this is a very good read.

    I understand the authors idea of using NPCs to prepare players for a Sandbox Game.
    My knowledge about new players experience is more or less non existent as ive done the tutorials back in 2007 and they were shit. I heard much has been done helping new players with the complexity of eve. but does todays new player experience prepare them for the harshness of emergent gameplay such as suicide ganking? i doubt it.

    February 12, 2013 at 4:15 pm Reply
  22. teddy

    You just wait. The next step for us bears is a mechanism for converting low and nul to high sec. You know that high sec is where more PvP happens. We will free eve from the evils of dictatorships no more Stalinist power blocks. We we win eve when it is wall to wall high sec.

    February 12, 2013 at 5:33 pm Reply
  23. Not a Pet

    In High sec you ate not safe. You are safer, or safest. But you are not safe. If you cant undrrstand that, if you cant tank your ship properly, eve is not the game for you.

    EVE is real, isnt that their motto? Well in real life, no amount of police protection would make you trully safe. ACCEPT IT

    February 12, 2013 at 6:07 pm Reply
    1. NoTech

      True, but what happens in REAL LIFE if you shoot ppl over and over again ?? Right you go to jail or the grim reaper takes you with him. So you want to perma ban or biomassed accounts ?? No, then STFU with "…in real life it aint safe too…" because in real life you have real consequences.

      February 12, 2013 at 7:15 pm Reply
      1. srsly man

        in eve, the person becomes tagged a criminal, so the 'society' of players can see (much easier than in reali life) and be wary of him or even take policing action themselves. shit, if he does it enough he will be BANNED from hi sec by concord, what more do you want..

        February 12, 2013 at 9:18 pm Reply
        1. NoTech

          Rly ?? Please check again where -10 toons can go and then we'll talk again.

          February 14, 2013 at 10:58 am Reply
  24. DarthNefarius

    "It’s decisive in a sense that the question itself is wrong and shouldn’t be asked."

    There are no stupid questions… there are just stupid people that don't want you to ask questions that make them look stupider with thier slanted answers

    February 12, 2013 at 6:13 pm Reply
  25. Akmid

    "Does it make any difference if that other spaceship is player controlled or not?"

    It does until the day NPC AI becomes smart enough to troll you in local after it kills you

    :p

    February 12, 2013 at 6:16 pm Reply
  26. anon

    Confiscate gevlins computer and leave himportant with 1 yogurt pot and a piece of string to communicate with. there i fixed eve. More nonsense fom a window licker… Stop him posting. Eve is not wow and if it becoms wow like i will quit

    February 12, 2013 at 6:27 pm Reply
    1. true words

      instanced pvp greedy RMT Mittens and shampo earn the hell out of the game ..and the rest of the universe has to suffer, hence eve online is broken became kind of wow in the end … the game is alrdy raped and all seem to be happy with it .. sad sad sad story

      February 12, 2013 at 7:06 pm Reply
    2. anon

      I'll happily donate the string.

      February 12, 2013 at 7:20 pm Reply
  27. sostupid

    Jesus christ this guy is a manual on how to logical fallacy…stop publishing this drivel Riv.

    February 12, 2013 at 7:56 pm Reply
  28. srsly man

    "yet a very important one which hopefully ends the “is non-consensual PvP is good for a game or not” dabate"

    someone is full of himself again, when eyes turn brown must drain overflow

    It's called a DEATH PENALTY duder, welcome to hardcore gaming…

    February 12, 2013 at 8:55 pm Reply
  29. Antingoony

    Goblin pukes on en24 yet again…

    The answer to the question you're too scared to ask: Corps

    Corporations are the real tutorial of EVE. There are hundreds of corps in any region that will take any and all newcomers and help them find their place in New Eden. Honestly, the in-game tutorial should just teach you how to use the corp finder, and leave the rest up to the playerbase.

    February 12, 2013 at 9:00 pm Reply
  30. Gumpin

    Greedy, Do you know that eve did not always have highsec?

    That eve was not always as large as it was?

    You approach eve as if the game and all its mechanics was created day 1. "And Hilmar said, let there be amarr, caldari, gallente, and minmatar. And he saw it was good."

    February 12, 2013 at 10:55 pm Reply
  31. Selina

    I want to believe EN24 continues to post this guy's word vomit because they enjoy the laughs he unknowingly creates with his ignorance…

    At least that's the best excuse I can come up with….

    But I digress. As a more constructive remark, this guy is continuing to deconstruct any positive opinion I may have originally had about him with each post.

    February 13, 2013 at 12:12 am Reply
  32. This Guy Again?

    Well it appears we cannot shut this guy up but we can certainly blow him away. (In game of course!) He's apparently been seen in Arant being chased from belt to belt by noobs. :))

    Just shoot anything with a Goblin in it's name.

    February 13, 2013 at 1:14 am Reply
  33. Barkaway

    First of all, stop, just stop compairing PvP in WoW with PvP in EVE, its not possible, its not possible, i repeat: its not possible..
    If you die in wow the woopty fucking do nothing happens, in eve you lose your ship, see already the difference is huge.
    Last but not less important is that killmail, you killed an afk miner, not a botno one that bots would be stupid enought to fit a retriever like that so grats on turning into a stoopid fool instead of just a fool.

    February 13, 2013 at 1:55 am Reply
  34. Ze Noob

    stopped reading half way through as i generally do with ur articles stop the comparison EVE to wow they are two different games EVE is good WOW isn't there one difference EVE's PVP is so good because of the risk i don't know of another game where players worry about going into combat for the first time in their first capital or that 1.2 bil mach.

    February 13, 2013 at 3:49 am Reply
    1. Carebear

      The point was that PVE'ers that DONT want to pvp get stuck. Wheres the freedom for them? 'Find Another game' is telling everybody that doesn't play YOUR way can F off. Where's the sandbox then. You elites don't seem to fathom that somebody don't want the same as you do, and because of that they can sod off. Eve is going to go down in flames with that way of thinking. I'm not saying you shouldn't loose anything if you get killed, but getting killed should be more a choice than it is today. If you WANT to go shoot others in the face, great, good for you go do it with others that want the same. But you want to shoot the guy that DOESN'T want to get shot, and if he voices that he can just piss off… Great attitude. And an awesome sandbox over time..

      February 13, 2013 at 5:54 pm Reply
      1. Ze Noob

        dude ur reply says u have no idea ok now my attitude isn't that anyone who doesn't PVP can F off carebears and dudes who farm rocks have to be there to build the ships so i can farm tears what annoys me is when people have a cry because they get killed by someone in a GAME by someone else oh noes.
        The other thing that annoys me is people like u who think that sand box means that if u decide not to engage in PVP that other people shouldn't have the right to shoot u well is the meaning of a sand box not that i can do what ever i want for example if i deiced to gank in high sec is that not my right in the sand box if someone scams u is that not their right a sand box mentality works both ways u do what u want run missions till ur hearts content just don't have a cry when some else comes and ganks u because they want to.
        people like u need to wake up to yourselves and stop shitting in the sand box

        February 14, 2013 at 4:51 am Reply
        1. The griefers don't lose anything but the carebears who are ganked definitely do. That is the problem. It is still too easy. Take it from me I know. We kill billions in barges every weekend. I don't call it survival of the fittest. I call it slowly forcing CCP to wake up and change the game mechanics. Because the carebears have a point. If it is too easy to grief, people either grief themselves or just quit. If the economy cannot function because it is too easy to grief, then the game cannot function.

          The key example is time. It takes a lot of time to raise the isk to build a T2 barge, but I can take 5 minutes to raise the isk to build a T1 fitted cat and destroy that barge in a few seconds. People blat on about sandboxes, but the fact is if nothing can be accomplished in the sandbox it is just sand. What makes a sandbox fun is the sandcastle, and if there are 3 year olds standing around just ready to stomp yours as soon as you put on a parapet then things get old and tired VERY quickly.

          We gank to teach lessons. Teach the obstinate, bossy carebear nerds that PvP is something they need to learn. That no, not everyone is or should be CEO of their own little corp. That knowing how to play a game properly trumps knowing how to make a lot of isk through repetition. But as well to show CCP that their current model is unsustainable. That RMT must be stamped out permanently. That the current game mechanics are broken.

          It is working perfectly so far. Some say I should be happy. It actually just makes me sad.

          February 15, 2013 at 3:51 pm Reply
  35. Markethopper

    Eve is about risk vs isk, and you will untimately join a corp, which will join an alliance, which will be affected by some politics happening in the game, all created by players. I think you miss the mark when comparing eve to wow. If you would look at guild pvp over solo, you would see very complex fits, tailored to special abilities, for specific pvp doctrine. The same would go for Eve. Everyone has a specific role to fill and does so in a way that benefits the group the best.

    I believe it is a serious mistake to mix conversation about pve aspects into a mmo game. In this aspect, Wow is much more versatile in its "raids" but also very static. Eve is very player influenced, and thus players dictate gameplay. Playing Eve or even Wow 5 years ago is completely different from jumping in today, as many returning pilots from years ago have learned. You as a player must adapt to your game, or move on.

    February 13, 2013 at 4:20 am Reply
  36. nerd

    WOW!

    February 13, 2013 at 6:52 pm Reply
  37. Nine Lives

    Greedy Goblin, just stop. Really, you're embarrassing yourself.

    All the concepts, ideas and notions you brought into this game from World of Warcraft are irreverent and do not apply to most situations. Especially your false notions of PvP.

    Nobody cares that you were a champ at using an automated WoW add-on to make a lot of ingame money. That doesn't make you an authority or knowledgeable in other MMOs. It just looks stupid and it's really showing.

    February 14, 2013 at 6:58 pm Reply
  38. BeltPred

    Im all for increasing the difficulties of NPC's, hell ive been talking about making PvE into PvP (just with comps controlling the ships) for a while with my buddies, who all think the idea is intersting.

    heck, trhow some cammand and conquer/sins fo a solar empire AI on the NPC factions adn have them wage war against corps/alliances/coalitions across low/nullsec and eachother.

    February 15, 2013 at 12:04 am Reply
  39. Michael Meio

    It may be late but here's my 50 cents..

    WoW aside, and with sole intention to quote the OP:

    "The question that you should be asking is “should people be defeated in the game or should they always win?”..

    Wrong question. The essential purpose of the introduction of consensual PVP is to allow "friendly" encounters. And the reason is that for many players the usual PVP experience is being ganked in a 100% defenseless vessel. Such players need to be de-noobisized by allowing them to "engage" in PVP w/o the usual grief. If we all take a closer look, it could be a very good adittion to the game.

    In my experience, there are periods (months) on which I truly have no time for EVE. I only do some PVE to finance further PVP in such times. With all the rebalancing and intro of modules and stuff, I have only had time for adequately fitting a Corax and another cpl of hulls, but they have not been tested. So, I stay with my rusted fittings while I get RL time to try more new stuff. I was hoping to get a chance on that testing.

    Now, some might say… "..well yeah, but that's what the other server is for." and its true, but then, not only you have to deal with issues regarding skills, but also, a separate installation, etc.. and TBH, it's kinda boring having to lure others just so you practice your freshly fit rifter. Some things have to be tested on the real scenario, at the adequate time with enough people.

    I think it's a good adition.. no matter where you go in New Eden, if you don't face it's nature as PVP game, you'll succumb to PVP eventualy. EVE is a PVP game. I welcome noobs to try PVP and experienced players to fine-tune their fittings. It would make a more interesting and active gaming.

    February 18, 2013 at 6:52 pm Reply

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