poetic

I’m going to post something that Kelduum Revaan posted to the EVE University forums, in its entirety. If Kelduum would like me to remove it, only supply a link to the post, then I will do that for him.

This is not an EVE University bitch post. This is about an action that CCP has taken (legitimate or not) that is quite disconcerting and that I think deserves wider dissemination into the community.

I make no assumptions on whether “John” was (or was not) doing anything wrong. Though, there are concerns that there is no legitimate way to make the number of market order changes that he was making in the time he says he was making them (with or without custom-built webpages.)

It does seem odd that the ISK was not confiscated while “John” was active, and that it was only confiscated after he had quit and biomassed. Perhaps CCP took that as the act of a guilty person?

Team Security. Headed by CCP Sreegs (I believe.) They apparently have no higher authority within CCP. There is no escalation beyond them. Perhaps because nobody in CCP understands what it is they do, the “bosses” only rely on their analysis, and assume that analysis is perfect? As Robert Pilarczyk wrote on Twitter: “Who watches the watchmen?”

Here is Kelduum’s post:

Note: The below assumes innocence until proof of guilt, however I have no reason to assume that the actions of an outstanding member of the community like “John” here would make this up and then proceed to leave in the way he did. If anyone in CCP wishes to contact me regarding this, they can find my contact details and the relevant petition information fairly easily.

At the end of last month, one of our members left EVE, and later biomassed his character. I’m not going to mention his name out of respect for him and instead I will refer to him as “John”, as I know he wouldn’t want to be remember for this. Those of you who know who he was, will remember him as one of our most helpful members, making literally hundreds of wiki edits, hours upon hours of time explaining things on Mumble, and helping new players. In short, he was the model E-UNI member, always willing to share his knowledge to help others, and one of the few members I instantly awarded the Graduate title and medal.

It transpires that “John” had been temporarily banned from EVE as CCPs ‘Team Security’ had identified his actions as ‘suspect’ – he was a station trader, and a very good one at that, playing trade markets in EVE like a professional, using the common tools available, as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself – the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.

Apparently this was enough to make it look like he was using some form of bot, which resulted in a 14 day ban on all of his accounts for “macro usage”. “John” then submitted a petition, questioning the ban, and providing the source code the the custom programs he created, as well as an outline on how they operated, and after 12 days was provided nothing in return other than a stock reply.

His request to escalate the petition was denied, and he was asked not to petition again. No ISK or assets were removed at this time, and it was stated that the ban was the first step of their 3-strike policy.

He then proceeded to liquidate his assets, and talked to one of the E-UNI directors, stating that: “If [CCP] convey a message that they want to punish success and disregard earnest amount of efforts a player put in this game, then I guess EVE is not the game for me… Sorry I won’t be completing the articles I promised or update the wiki, I had great things planned out and many unfinished projects EvE-related, but I’m not motivated to finish them anymore. It’s been very fun, good times flying with all you guys. E-UNI is great and has been great help for me… I loved the game, my chars are around 30M sp so it was a hard decision to make, but it has been made.”

He then transferred the remains of his ISK and assets to EVE University, left corp and then biomassed his character.

At 23:18:43 on January 17th, there was a corp donation of 317,732,017,621.60 ISK from “John”.

Yes. Three hundred and seventeen billion. That can buy a lot of skillbooks. Its enough to kick-start a market in a smallish region or run any number of E-UNI projects indefinitely or, at current market values, buy 600 PLEX.

Suffice to say we were surprised at the amount, and took actions to partition the ISK away somewhere safe, transferring the bulk of it to an alt corp.

We then immediately petitioned CCP to check the validity of such a large amount of ISK. Obviously we wanted to make sure it wasn’t the result of RMT, or anything else like that which would end up with the ISK being removed later on down the line, leaving E-UNI with a negative ISK balance.

Note: The EULA prevents a GM’s responses from being posted publicly, so I will only be able to [post my side of the communication]:

E-UNI Director Petition wrote:
EVE University received a donation of over 317 billion isk this week […] I have transferred the bulk of that ISK to this character […].

Due to the size of the transfer, I wanted to double check that the isk was all legal, and not due to some illicit activity. The ISK will remain on this character and not be touched until we hear back from you.

We do not usually receive donations of this size, and would rather be safe then sorry. Thank you very much for your time.

Eight days later, we had a response, thanking us for bringing it to CCPs attention, and explaining that due to the ISK being related to a security matter, it has been confiscated.

We responded, with the obvious question:

E-UNI Director Petition wrote:
I appreciate your time spent checking this for us. Not to be ungrateful, but are you absolutely sure that all of the ISK was illegitimate? There isn’t some fraction that is legitimate that we could keep?

At time of writing, no response has been received.

I filed a separate petition to be absolutely sure, wanting to confirm the reason behind the ISK removal:

Kelduum’s Petition wrote:
Hi,

Can I get a confirmation that a total of 317,732,017,621.60 ISK was removed due to a ‘security matter’ related to a now Ex-member of EVE University, who had been temp-banned for apparent market botting?

I understand that you may not be able to confirm some of this, however I want to ensure that the actions being claimed are correct.

The response, some days later, confirmed the removal of the ISK, and stated that it came from “illegitimate activities” and was therefore a security matter. I responded.

Kelduum’s Petition wrote:
Thank you for the confirmation.

I’m lead to believe that “John” was temporarily banned for something akin to using a market bot, however he professed his innocence. Obviously this is for you to decide, and hes now biomassed his character, so this isn’t going to change.

While in E-UNI, he was an upstanding member, editing our wiki and posting well, as well as both attending and teaching classes. basically a good member of the community.

He was also the guy you would ask about market trading, and we’d often see him around chatting on voice comms.

I can see that you may have assumed he was botting (whether he was or not I can’t dispute as I have no proof either way) – however I’m wondering why the ISK was left with him at that time, and then later removed?

Not to mention that it’s a sizable amount of ISK to remove from the economy and game.

Twenty four hours later, a response came stating that none of this can be discussed with a third party, despite it being myself who received the ISK (under the E-UNI organization) and therefore not wholly related to a third party.

It was also mentioned that a donation like this would have eventually been investigated anyway, although it is unclear how long that would have taken.

At this point I was curious under what reason the ISK had been left with “John”, only to be removed when he donated it elsewhere and deleted his characters. Surely if CCP’s processes include temporary bans before removing any ill-gotten gains, they would not then remove the ISK later on unless the actions continued.

Kelduum’s Petition wrote:
I understand its not something you can discuss as it involves a third party, and I’m not even able to have the third party ask any more as he has cancelled his accounts and biomassed his characters.

Hypothetically however, if a player was temp-banned for some time due to botting-like activity, would the ISK not have been investigated and cleared at that point when that player was temp-banned?

The response, two days later, was that these matters cannot be discussed at all, and the petition was closed without me having a chance to reply and ask for it to be escalated and looked at by someone else.

I filed a second petition under a different category, asking for the previous one to be reopened and escalated – at this point I was about removal of the ISK without any clear reasoning of doing so, other than “it came from someone who had been temp-banned” and looking to communicate with someone else about this in an attempt to get something other than canned responses.

The petition was answered by the same CCP member, with another canned response, stating that there is no escalation for security matters and that they operate separately from customer support, the matter had been brought to the attention of their Director of Security, and to respond if I have any questions or concerns.

And then, its no longer about the ISK.

I started to become quite worried. The dialogue at this point suggests that the security team are operating with no oversight at all, and implies that there is no auditing or checks and balances for their actions, especially as there is no recourse for anyone who wishes to dispute their claims.

My response (edited to remove items which may be under NDA) was:

Kelduum’s Petition wrote:
My concerns are as follows:

1. The player where it originated quit quite publicly after returning from his ban, and biomassed his character as he felt he was unfairly ‘punished for being too good’ (paraphrasing). This is common knowledge in the corporation, and he was both an “Enabler” and “Instigator” to use CCP Seagull’s terms.
2. It is also known within management that he donated all his ISK to the corporation before he left, and that there was a lot of it, in the region of hundreds of billions.
3. It seems unusual that the whole balance was removed rather than a portion which, for example, had been purchased via RMT or similar methods. However, removal under this way would have left a negative balance anyway.
4. Those same management players have been asking the same questions I have – if he was already punished, why was the ISK not removed at that time, rather than 1 week later, after we enquired as to its validity?
5. It’s only a matter of time before the player-base find out about this, and it is going to raise more questions. Not removing the ISK at the time suggests that it was obtained legally, and that instead “CCP doesn’t want E-UNI to have the money” for some reason.

Today, six days later, the response comes that the CCP representative is not worried about how this would look to anyone, and stands by the claim that the ISK was obtained illegitimately, despite claims and information suggesting otherwise.

No answers at all to my concerns. No escalation path. No way of querying the reasons why the ISK was disappeared after being left alone for 3 weeks and then donated after all of “Johns” characters were deleted, and no recourse at all.

All my attempts so far have been either ignored, blocked or referred back to the same location.

So, the security team are in charge of everything to do with security, and will happily remove ISK from players, with no form of recourse or escalation path in the event of a false positive – which its suggested they have never had one, likely as they apparently don’t allow anyone to dispute their actions.

And, they will apparently also take ISK from someone who received it if the sender was claimed to have been involved in something illegitimate. Again, no proof or information need be provided as they are infallible.

So, go out, and be successful in EVE. Just don’t be so successful that CCP decide you’re being too good at EVE, and then decide to tell you you can’t play in the sandbox that particular way any more, even if you weren’t aware you had been doing anything wrong.

Decide for yourself if there’s anything wrong with this picture.

102 Comments

  1. evewide

    Reminds me of the book "Why Nations Fail"; when an authority is answerable to no-one and adjudicates opaquely, the economy under which it presides inevitably fails.

    February 11, 2013 at 10:42 pm Reply
  2. Space troll

    Bollocks, Goons and the old NC were making bank off moon goo for yrs and the current players in 0.0 still are. If that were OP CCP rly cared about how much isk you had then Moon resources would of been fixed years ago. If this doesn't qualify for tinfoil I don't know what does.

    February 11, 2013 at 10:53 pm Reply
    1. BntyHunter

      Totally right.

      Goons/NC made more money for CCP by paying for say 1k accounts forever but by them advertising on Reddit and other huge forums they probably gained them 20k players x 300 a year.

      They wont fix it until it hurts.

      February 11, 2013 at 11:52 pm Reply
      1. Hippocratic

        CCP did stop it though when NCDOT had that entire corp run by Puppetmaster RMTing for them in Tribute.

        February 12, 2013 at 2:19 am Reply
        1. BntyHunter

          Do you have any proof? Any articles? Anything?

          If you do I really will read everything you have.

          February 12, 2013 at 4:01 am Reply
        2. Shogun

          Puppetmaster has RMTed in almost every large alliance in the game.

          February 12, 2013 at 4:07 am Reply
  3. curzonj

    I built a system like that for myself also, although I wasn't a good enough trader to be that fast. I guess I'm glad I got bored with it before I actually got good at it.

    February 11, 2013 at 10:54 pm Reply
  4. Jake Jake Jake...

    "the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time."

    so every 2 seconds he would update his market orders?
    for 10-20 minutes at a time…..

    rrrrright, no bot there detected :S

    February 11, 2013 at 10:54 pm Reply
    1. Moon = bot

      Whats moon mining if not botting?

      February 12, 2013 at 12:05 am Reply
    2. Mike

      It's not that hard to update an order in 2-3 seconds.. There are applications that can read exported market data and copy the undercut price to the clipboard so all you have to do is click export, click modify order, press ctrl-v, press enter. Very quick and very much allowed because the link to said application has been on the eve-o forums for years without being removed even after being reported, because it's not automation. You still have to perform the update action manually.

      February 12, 2013 at 12:18 am Reply
      1. anon

        you got your facts right but results totally fkin backwards – right-click the order, select modify, hit ctrl-V, and click OK. 30 times a minute. 30 minutes straight? without using a bot? i call bullshit.

        February 12, 2013 at 1:50 am Reply
        1. Not Anon

          You have never worked a data entry job.

          February 12, 2013 at 2:46 am Reply
      2. name

        Everybody is making these claims, but none are naming specific applications or methods of how to do this.

        February 13, 2013 at 1:21 am Reply
  5. petwatch

    Worth remembering how CCP banned an AA member for RMTing until it turned out he'd been buying PLEXs from CCP. He only got his stuff back after using back channels, the escalation process failed there to. It'll get worst after the security team have the upcoming people change.

    February 11, 2013 at 10:54 pm Reply
    1. BntyHunter

      I was one of the stupid ones who bought the whole RMT thing for that poor guy.

      It makes me very mad, that a player like him gets burned forever like a guy accused of molesting children and on the other hand CCP basically sanctions all the RMT you could want with others.

      February 11, 2013 at 11:54 pm Reply
  6. anon

    first, for CCP to stonewall like dickheads is, at the very least, not cool at all. if they said it was meant to be taken away and they "forgot," i.e. it was a simple oversight, then ok fine. but based on the OP, they've offered no explanation at all.

    second, what this guy did sure as hell sounds to me like botting. manipulating 30 orders per minute? one every 2 f**king seconds??? on top of that, he had created *in-game macros* – how in god's name do you NOT consider that an exploit!?!? i'm sorry, but only a f**king moron would think that what he was doing was legit.

    February 11, 2013 at 10:56 pm Reply
    1. Mike

      Me thinks you need to learn how to read.. The only mention of macros is that that was the accusation CCP made against him. Neither "John" nor Kelduum ever mentioned any macros.

      February 11, 2013 at 11:11 pm Reply
      1. anon

        maybe you need to learn how to read..

        quote from the OP: "the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow.."

        February 11, 2013 at 11:40 pm Reply
        1. Mike

          And how is that in any possible way a macro? Creating your own IGB pages has always been allowed.

          February 11, 2013 at 11:43 pm Reply
  7. Scar

    This is absolutely absurd. The manner in which CCP investigate some security matters and leave others alone without any oversight is getting old . . . not to mention the canned responses that leaves the individual thinking they're talking to someone that has little to no knowledge of the actual game. I don't know how many times I've submitted a petition and had the CCP GMs respond to me in a manner that had nothing to do with the actual item of inquiry leaving me to believe they have people investigating matters of a game that they have never played. While this particular instance seems rather dubious at best . . . I'm more angry at the non-responses legitimate questions got.

    This matter needs more attention EVENEWS 24 . . . try to keep us up to date on it and don't let it fall to the wayside because it isn't the subject matter of just this failed response I'm worried about . . . it is all the petitions that get non-responses from robotic like talking head GMs who know less about the game then the players submitting the petitions. Let the forums burn with the flames of our spaceship rage.

    February 11, 2013 at 11:05 pm Reply
  8. The Observer

    In CCCP, idiots ban you!

    Seriously though, I've had retarded temp bans before only to get them lifted 2 days in because the security team was far too over zealous with the ban hammer (supposedly banned for a ratting bot?). They've messed up A LOT before, they probably messed up here, and they'll mess up again. Honestly, the security team have performed horribly and CCP should at least have an over-sight committee to address the people disputing the bans. I'd rather have someone to talk to that will at least listen before giving me some copy pasta response.

    February 11, 2013 at 11:10 pm Reply
  9. Grey08

    I mostly agree with Anon, but this is where the 3rd party problem comes in. If they forgot to take the money, they couldn't tell 3rd party who ended up with the money.

    While I see a problem with the (in)ability to escalate, it's a complex problem when one of the offended parties throws themself out the airlock. I can easily see a situation here where "John" was under 1st strike, and they had forgotten to take the isk (or weren't planning to, giving benefit of the doubt to the side of ignorance). By quitting, it could be argued that he gave up his right to the last two strikes, and the book was thrown at the remainder.

    It would be nice if CCP could be clear in the actual reason this happened, but privacy is something they can't mess around with. E-Uni was smart by checking the money, and CCP cashed in on 600 months of subs.

    February 11, 2013 at 11:12 pm Reply
    1. OOglie booglie

      Pretty much this. 'Ah we forgot to get the ISk, but now it's with eve uni, so I guess that's ok. [petition] ok, well since he's giving it back to us, great.

      February 12, 2013 at 4:39 am Reply
      1. Grey08

        Great point.
        E-Uni asked CCP to check that the isk was legit before they used it. We don't know what evidence CCP had, but it's pretty obvious what they thought.

        Lesson: Petition ignorance, not permission. 😉

        February 12, 2013 at 12:06 pm Reply
        1. BntyHunter

          "Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" – Army buddies.

          February 12, 2013 at 7:43 pm Reply
  10. anon

    So …. CCP uses the same playbook as real-life prosecutors and law-enforcement agents and assumes a person is guilty, and refuses to admit any possibility of errors. Truly, a paragon of justice to last for the ages. Then again, Goonswarm exploited trillions out of the pre-patched bounty system before reporting it, and only got a gentle fellating from CCP, so perhaps EVE Uni should just fold into them.

    February 11, 2013 at 11:30 pm Reply
  11. INKbob

    Classic blap the defenseless little guy, leaving the large offenders untouched.

    Like the saying borrow a million and the bank owns you, borrow and billion and you own the bank.

    Anyone else get the feeling….

    February 11, 2013 at 11:32 pm Reply
    1. BntyHunter

      Yeah this is so that in appearences they are "Punishing the Evil Botters"

      In reality the biggest RMT`ers ingame are basically supported by CCP.

      If I know who the biggest RMT`ers are and most of you do as well, or hear 10x daily about the Tec cartels selling how hard is it really to believe even 1/10`s of the rumors.

      This also just makes people not come forward EVER, because they are punished for it.

      February 11, 2013 at 11:45 pm Reply
      1. Gonina

        I think that your RMT corp the untouchables was supported by NCDOT wasn't it?

        February 12, 2013 at 2:23 am Reply
        1. BntyHunter

          untouchables had sketchy dealings IMO. Im not up to it as much as I should be. If anyone knows the full story please tell me and I will learn.

          Im all for shutting any sort of RMT down ESP my own Alli`s if its true. And when I listed major groups who RMT I didnt leave out us because TBH I dont know….I dont think Vince does and I have seen him rage about it, but I dont know him well enough to say for certain.

          I can say however when I had 4 Toons in CFC 1-3 years ago RMT/Botting was happening very often. I was taught how, showed where to go get a program, where to use the bot and where it would be safe etc.

          I have never seen anything like that, not even close here.

          February 12, 2013 at 3:58 am Reply
      2. Exversion

        BntyHunter,

        Tho I have seen positive things posted from you, this one is not one of them. This is an extremely large Tinfoil Hat post and extremely ridiculous.

        As someone in the Gaming Industry, I understand how studio's work. I understand the privacy policy and I understand the lack of communication when people "inquire" about certain things.

        CCP will have evidence of botting on the character and even if they don't, they reserve the right to shut down an account with no warning and for no reason. The ISK in question was found to be dirty and was confiscated. EvE-U thought that because they "reported it" they would be able to keep it. Once it was taken, they wanted it back and continued to "inquire" about it and then threatened to go public. That is probably the most childish thing I've ever seen. If you get banned, do you honestly think that the Staff are going to tell you "how" they detected you? Does EvE-U think that CCP is going to give them the evidence they gathered against this individual?

        This is EvE-U thinking they are entitled to ISK when they never were. Swearing up and down that X person didn't "bot" tho not a single one of them were ever at his house or monitoring his computer. You simply do not know if he was or not. He could be telling you he isn't botting in an attempt to make himself look like more of a professional. Bottom line is CCP knows what happened, they confiscated the ISK, and there's nothing you can do about it. Propaganda all you want against CCP, it only hurts you in the long run.

        February 12, 2013 at 2:25 am Reply
        1. BntyHunter

          How do you think Eve-U is acting entitled at all?

          Seriously these guys went and asked for a audit to check funds….These funds were released after the guys ban meaning they should have already had evidence for or against it being illegal or legal.

          Instead they decide to take the ISK and not give a reason or produce proof why it was illegal…..And Im wearing the foil hat???

          The ISK should have been taking before the ban and then provided the party with MASSIVE EVIDENCE or
          They should have checked determined it was clean and then when Eve-U asked CCP would have said for sure its clean…..Sorry man but you are defending something that is clearly a fuck up on there part and furthermore one they dont repent for, or in any way try to produce evidence, leaving no way to escalate it.

          So basically lets say the security team had no evidence but needs to stick to there call not looking badly…..There is no way to prove that or disprove it. Sorry but when they get supreme power and nothing is accountable its screwed.

          If the character was CAUGHT FOR BOTTING HIS ISK WOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN AWAY IMMEDIATELY….IT WASN`T….Then when 2nd party got it AFTER CCP RELEASED FUNDS. THEY KEEP IT.

          Please explain how that is in any way a ok response and not totally devoid of sense.

          February 12, 2013 at 2:51 am Reply
          1. Exversion

            BntyHunter,

            I apologize if I caused any "stress". As someone who does understand these things, I can get a bit passionate when the employees of a gaming company are attacked, no matter which company. The lack of transparency warranted by privacy and needed secrecy turns the community against those that attempt to build an enjoyable environment.

            I see this type of thing all too often. The quick to point the finger at those in charge that don't give information when the community demands it. Unfortunately, to give out that information would be to harm a lot of the foundation that keeps the gaming universe "safe" so to say.

            RMT is a very real thing in almost every major MMO. It's difficult to track, and almost impossible to prevent. It's not that those tasked with stopping it don't try tho. They do on a daily basis. And to say that they are "in on it" is tinfoil hat.

            As far as that goes, it could have been anything from a simple mistake of leaving the funds on a character to actually "monitoring" it. When an employee tasked with stopping RMT sees large amounts of funds, he doesn't put a "bandaid" on the problem by removing those funds. He watches them in an attempt to connect the entirity of the "ring". In this case, there may not have been a ring at all and the individual may have been the last node. When he distributed the ISK and biomassed, it was the end of the ring and CCP removed the illicit funds.

            Again, I apologize for being so passionate about it. But it's difficult to sit there and attempt to provide the community with a fun environment and have that same community throw stones and convict you of wrong doing.

            February 12, 2013 at 3:21 am
          2. BntyHunter

            Nah man dont apologize. I like arguing with intelligent and polite people. I like having differing opinions and like I said good arguing partners is just like a good sparring partner, it makes your mind a lot sharper.

            I`m sorry but I still do thin kCCP turns its head away from the HUGE, SUPER ORGANIZED RMTing.
            Almost everyone knows they do. And before you say Tinfoil, this has happend in game before.

            And then people in my Alli [BoB] told me I was dumb to think T20 had anything to do with foul play etc…..Guess what, he was dirty and had mucked up a lot of CCP`s cred. He was involved with the T2 BPO lotto where more BoB members than any got there own BP`s making them Trillions over years.

            Sorry but thinking that CCP would turn the other way and allow the most charasmatic group in Eve [WHo is always in RL hanging out over there and hiring DEV`s from this group] and allowing them these riches because they bring in 80% of the fresh blood each year in Eve is not Tinfoil at all.

            TBH CCP opened the floodgates and a major way to wash ISK by allowing RMT in the form of PLEX, before Plex they were able to crack down a lot easier, anyone with HHUUUGGEEE amounts that they couldnt account for was banned, but now with PLEX a RMT`r will open a site that sells plex. Meaning the guys who buy Plex from CCP are almost always selling to RMT`ers who will take that Plex and trade it for cheaper RL currency.

            There`s almost no arguing with this, go to any ISK site and look at there preferred way to sell….Its not ISK in Contracts…Its plex. Take away Plex and RMT is cut so massively it might not be worth it.

            Fact is they wont because every plex that RMT`r sells is still bought from a CCP at some point, so the Moon ISK that is sold is all part of it.

            February 12, 2013 at 3:54 am
          3. Exversion

            BntyHunter,

            A gaming company will never ever send "proof" of anything being against their rules. If information regarding their techniques in locating and finding Bots, RMTers, etc. were to get out, they would have to rework their entire workflow on how to identify them.

            Asking for "proof" so to say will always result in a "no" type answer. Of course this makes them look like the bad guys but it is a necessary answer to preserve the techniques used to locate and remove these types of things.

            February 12, 2013 at 3:26 am
          4. BntyHunter

            No, Im not asking for proof that would explain how they found out. Just asurrance/proof that they did.

            Saying "This money has been found to be tied with illegal activities" is not enough. Sorry but it`s not.

            If they cleared the guys name who had the 317 bil, and said he did not bot….Then take that ISK after he gave it away tells me they didnt care about him keeping it until he gave it away.

            CCP cleared that ISK since the original player only got a temp ban. Now they say it was illegal. So yes before they take his money they NEED TO PROVIDE PROOF AS TO WHAT CHANGED.

            Reminds me of movie "In Time" "Your fathers crime wasnt stealing time, it was something far more dangerous….He was giving it away" :)

            February 12, 2013 at 3:44 am
          5. Ynglaur

            They don't owe you assurance that they found out. In fact, technically they have provided that assurance already…by removing the ISK (at, ironically, EVE-U's beckoning).

            February 12, 2013 at 9:54 am
        2. BntyHunter

          Also nothing I said was Tinfoil worthy at all.

          We all know [Us level headed ones] that RMT is a major part of Eve, and the only ones who dont think groups like CFC, PL, SOLAR, HBC, and others with access to huge ISK is indirectly or directly involved…..Sorry its common sense.

          If you chose to put your head in the sand that is your choice, but it doesn't make me a tinfoil wearer because of it.

          Tinfoil means most players would think it was "Fringe" thinking…..Sorry buddy but if you dont believe the major blocks RMT in one way or another you are in the Fringe groups of thinking and are wearing the shiny hat.

          February 12, 2013 at 2:54 am Reply
        3. Ooglie booglie

          It was dumb of eveU to petition that in the first place, anyways. It was clear for three weeks- it was clear. It's like walking up to a cop car and saying 'hey, I found some cash, want it?'

          February 12, 2013 at 4:30 am Reply
    2. Shogun

      The large offenders are people in CCP Sreegs old alliance, we'll never see any of them banned.

      February 12, 2013 at 3:56 am Reply
      1. Ynglaur

        When logic fails, resort to straw men.

        February 12, 2013 at 9:52 am Reply
        1. Shogun

          You ether don't know what stawman means, or you have bad reading comprehension. Strawman imply I was making some kinda argument, which I wasn't. I was simply stating that GSF has more bots in it then any other alliance, and that CCP Sreegs doesn't ban them. I never even implied that this "Jonh" dude was, or wasn't a bot, I actually have no clue if the isk was made from a bot, and nether does anyone posting on this topic, and to be honest I don't think CCP does ether, it's just easier to take all the isk, and be done with it.

          February 12, 2013 at 4:56 pm Reply
  12. naldo

    I think the point here is the security team must be answerable for their actions and there must be an escalation process.of CCP will get plagued somewhat with false petitions however better than the user base petitioning for a resolution to thus matter, on mass ? Oh wait……

    February 11, 2013 at 11:37 pm Reply
  13. Rkanon

    People invest a LOT of time and effort into this game. I don't think it's too difficult to imagine feeling so betrayed by the makers of a game you've so loyally dedicated yourself to over the years that being unjustly accused w/no chance to prove your own innocence that you just can't take it and biomass and finally say fuck this … and FUCK YOU.

    I don't think biomassing is a sign of guilt – I think based on what kind of player it sounds like he was he felt so betrayed he couldn't continue playing with that much resentment.

    February 11, 2013 at 11:38 pm Reply
    1. I agree. I don't think biomassing is a sign of guilt. I'm putting it out there that perhaps CCP viewed it that way. I don't know what they're thinking.

      February 11, 2013 at 11:43 pm Reply
    2. NullSecHoBo

      Yup, that's true – when years and years of effort are taken away from you, you do not start over. You walk away.

      February 12, 2013 at 4:28 am Reply
    3. Partially biomassed

      CCP's actions are vulgar display of power over your free time. And you agreed for this by signing EULA. 😐
      It stinks…

      February 12, 2013 at 10:41 am Reply
    4. s2n grunt

      If John would have been a RMTer, would't he sell that 300+ bils for dunno how much $$?
      Would he really donate them? CCP!! THINK!!!
      CCP … seriously, EVERY **** cent from that amount was illegally earned? CCP!!! THINK!!!

      I couldn't care less whether E-UNI keeps some ISK or not, but CCP is wrong in this case IMO. And what's alarming is that they are wrong AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

      February 12, 2013 at 12:05 pm Reply
  14. BntyHunter

    CCP is and always has been a very unbalanced group with little to no rules. They make rules as they go. And rather than ruling by commitee often is made by 2 people and then not scrutinized.

    If I were a super rich individual and wanted to severely harm a enemy in game the easiest way [if they happen to not be making Eve famous or wealthy like the Cartels] I would give 100`s of billions to a group then admit to CCP I was a seller/RMT`er and the other party screwed me.

    Really they do these little things to make us feel better and to claim "wins" just like Attorneys who plan on being Mayors/Senators who advertise cracking down on crime. But truthfully we all know who the RMT`ers ingame are….The ISK never adds up taking in the active ISK and passive ISK.

    What CCP needs is a auditing system with the top 50 richest Alli`s ingame, just like the IRS. If 100 bil here 250 bil there vanish from a GSF/NCDOT/PL/SOLAR then they need to be punished.

    The wealth is so great now with a 40k player base ALWAYS online and 1000 of those extremely rich, we are talking guys able to make REAL LIVINGS of 40-80k a year selling/Washing ISK.

    February 11, 2013 at 11:51 pm Reply
    1. Gonina

      Is that what happened with THE UNTOUCHABLES?

      February 12, 2013 at 2:22 am Reply
      1. Shogun

        Talk to the puppermaster if you want to know about The untouchables, he's been in about ten different alliances since being in NCdot, three of which were in CFC/HBC one was GSF, and before he was in NCdot he was likely in atleast 40 different alliances

        February 12, 2013 at 4:05 am Reply
    2. NullSecHoBo

      If only you could provide specific examples of these ad hoc allegations…

      At a certain level, the isk flows are stupendous. Folks who manipulate markets, whether by planning artificial movements as was done for isogen recently, or taking advantage of game mechanics changes, play with 100's of B of isk at a time.

      As someone who's never managed to hold on to more than 5B in liquid cause I lose ships all the time and couldn't be arsed to pve, the magnitude of these movements blows my mind – but that doesn't make me discount the ability of others to play at that scale.

      So.. instead of just saying, these guys are sitting on hundreds of billions of isk and so it's hypothetically possible to launder all of it, do you have proof? Reason I ask is, I do think CCP has been fairly successful at rooting out a lot of botting and RMT – infact, maybe too successful, if this particular incident with the E-Uni turns out to be a false positive.

      February 12, 2013 at 4:25 am Reply
      1. BntyHunter

        Your theory of "To successful" is totally wrong. This just shows how unsuccessful they are. As you say if guys are playing with markets this large and its so common, then CCP should not be so amazed by a sum that large they auto take the amount.

        No, it proves more so CCP rarely see`s these sums and s when they see a case that is somewhat shady with no evidence they seize it to add onto the "Dirty ISK" we would probably have heard a stat or saw a chart of this ISK at Evefest as part of the "War on Bots"

        Sorry man that point goes the other way completely.

        Also I have witnessed massive rings of Botting and been invited in after a while, like I said. It is so very common for these to occur in the blocks I mention`d.

        Also im sorry but guys like RMF and all the super RMT`ers who get popped and speak out about the Money cartels have no reason to lie. And looking at the 10+ articles of RMT`ers I have read they all highlight the same exact tactics, programs used and ways to wash the ISK. They also name the systems that make the most sense.

        I flew with a guy who was convinced all major blocks botted only 1 year ago after CCP "Cleaned it up" he went through most Carebear blocks CFC+HBC+SOLAR etc as a 20 man Renter and the criteria was letting them know he was a botter, then letting them know he was an RMT`er and then he acted like he needed assurance that was ok and no one would grief him because he was so.

        In the end he met only a handful of guys who were unwilling, the rest [just like in my cases] not only accepted him but told him about there own rings and he outlined to me that basically all Blocks having a UN-Official Director of RMT, someone always ran the proper renting and the other renting.

        Match this upto RMF`s stories and they were the same, match the entry level stuff where they invite you in for a piece and it matches up to the offers I have had.

        I have always wanted to go deeper but I would never recover from it and I plan to make Eve my hobby for more time yet. Maybe when I decide to leave I will suicide takeout a big RMT Op if I can.

        But honestly to the guys who dont think its a major buisness to almost all Super Blocks you are very very wrong.

        Plex=10 bucks A bot makes that in a 5 hour stent on safemode.

        This is the next reason why RMT`ers now are harder to find, is simply the time now. Lets say you have been sucking off the Tec tit and stored away 100 bil, this is and 10x what we used to have in BoB days since game wasn`t very old, but now we have players from BoB who went to NC got tec and now are doing other stuff.

        Anyways imagine your 100 bil can gain 15% a month doing very easy trades. At this point selling 150 bil per month is 3k a month in RMT. Think about how easy it would be to do that for a older corp in the CFC [just using them as example.]

        Now 15% is sooooo easy and almost does it itself. Imagine them buying hot trends of certain modules and bullying a market and making what I have a 100% well now we are talking 20k a month.

        Split that up between members of a Directorship and thats 5k a pop.

        Eve is simply to old and unlike RL where you have to pay Tx just on the money you own, and where there is no "Skills to lower Taxes" Eve money always gets bigger and bigger if someone is smart. So now its not a matter of Botting anymore, that literally saw its peak 3 years ago and new Botters never will reach what they did. Now its mastering washing the ISK.

        Simply put the reason they try to get rid of such huge chunks of ISK is because once you have 300 bil and you double that each month, you can literally become rich in RL and always keep the principle.

        If you honestly think the guys who have played Eve 12 years who have a T2 Bpo and an opportunity to make a Ferrari every year off a video game and a website they make, and you dont think they will do it your crazy.

        So you think them taking away this clean money is a sign they are doing/did job, I am taking it like they just hit large amounts because they know how much DMG a person could do with it. To me it shows they are very weak, and they will kill the "Independents" who aren`t covered by huge Forums and bring a 10% increase to new trials each year.

        February 12, 2013 at 6:59 am Reply
  15. noob

    I'd rather have an over-zealous security team occassionally backtracking on their mistakes than a limp dick security squad that can't do a damn thing becasue of red tape

    February 11, 2013 at 11:56 pm Reply
    1. hey

      The point is that they don't backtrack on mistakes, they just ignore it ever happened.

      February 12, 2013 at 12:02 am Reply
      1. NullSecHoBo

        Worse – they double down on their mistake.

        February 12, 2013 at 4:39 am Reply
  16. anon

    Now for a non-bitchy comment.

    In this case, the person involved is quite clearly guilty of botting, unless he has previously obtained permission from CCP to use his macro. So his guilt is not at issue.

    The treatment of ISK is rather questionable, but it perhaps the best thing CCP could have done in that situation. Consider their position. They have a person who was using a macro to update hundreds of orders in a short span of time, in direct competition with other players who did not have the advantage of that macro. After being temporarily banned, as part of CCP's 3-strike policy, he transfers all of his ISK and biomasses his character.

    Now, maybe he did indeed quit the game. But maybe he was trying to use EVE Uni to preserve his gains while avoiding CCP's 3-strike policy. CCP can't tell. And they probably don't want to set a precedent whereby a botter can transfer all of his ISK to a corporation, and then buy a new character and resume botting.

    I do agree that communication from CCP, especially its security section, is rather bad. And I find it strange that there is no review mechanism for security issues, since those can have huge consequences for a player.

    February 12, 2013 at 12:05 am Reply
    1. Mike

      He was not using macros. He was using custom applications and IGB pages to help determining buy and sell order prices. The article says that nothing was being automated and I believe it.
      If this wasn't allowed then why did CCP put that functionality in the IGB in the first place, and why hasn't it been removed yet? It's like claiming that using EVEMon to plan skill queues is botting because you have an advantage over players who don't.

      February 12, 2013 at 12:13 am Reply
      1. anon

        LOL wtf do you think a macro is???? IT'S A CUSTOM APPLICATION THAT'S EMBEDDED IN A PROGRAM WHOSE EULA STATES YOU CANNOT EMBED PROGRAMS

        February 12, 2013 at 1:51 am Reply
        1. Mike

          Just so we're clear here… You're saying that using for example EVEMon to see your market orders is macro and you will get banned for it? Because that is basically the same thing.

          February 12, 2013 at 2:33 am Reply
        2. BntyHunter

          You are confusing things. A tracking software like market watcher etc is not a macro. He had a custom one, it did not however take hold of his mouse and move it to trade things around…That would be a macro.

          February 12, 2013 at 3:59 am Reply
        3. Shogun

          you have no clue what your talking about.

          February 12, 2013 at 4:01 am Reply
  17. Cornholio

    I see nothing here that shows that this guy wasn't botting, other them him denying it. If team security has evidence of him botting, then good job.

    Not to say he's guilty here, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

    February 12, 2013 at 12:52 am Reply
  18. mel

    time for a jita lag fest again i think

    February 12, 2013 at 2:17 am Reply
  19. mel

    time for a jita lag fest again i think

    February 12, 2013 at 2:18 am Reply
  20. Internet Lawyer

    Thirty Market orders a minute for up to 20 minutes
    – 600 market transactions taking 2 seconds each.
    – With no gaps between

    Not a bot ?
    – Yeah, right

    CCP not discussing details of a ban with any other third party ?
    – Absolutely standard procedure.

    February 12, 2013 at 2:33 am Reply
  21. Since '03

    Obvoius crooked gaming company is crooked. Like this is news.

    February 12, 2013 at 2:49 am Reply
  22. >update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes

    >at a time

    You can stop reading there. Updating one order takes

    -move a mouse to your order

    -right click it

    -click Modify

    -wait for box to appear

    -move mouse again to the price

    -modify price by either scrolling mouse wheel or inputting numbers

    -press enter

    -sometimes also press enter again to close warning

    Now problems with the story. This takes MORE than 2 seconds. You would need to be autistic to do it for 10-20 minutes straight. Finally max number of orders is 305, updating for 20 minutes means he was rebidding, that means he was checking the price before updating order the second time.

    Checking the price means opening item in marked window and that alone takes ~2 seconds to load.

    Whole story is pure bullshit and he was clearly using a bot to do his trading.

    EVEUni ASKED for this ISK to be confiscated if it was dodgy. GM checked the source, figured out source was botting and rightfully deleted the ISK. Dont see a problem here.

    February 12, 2013 at 3:39 am Reply
    1. Felix

      You don't seem to know how many people in the game use custom tools to update market order, or even how these tools work, or that they're used by people. Bots on the other hand use these same tools to update market orders 23 hours a day, and there is nobody sitting at a PC to do it, the mouse itself is moved by a program, that is a bot, using custom tools in conjunction with EVE-Markets.net isn't illegal, and is actually very common, even to the point that if your not making custom tools, and spreadsheets yourself your pretty much wasting your time. I myself fill out at least a spreadsheet day, and use a tool probably very similar to Jonhs, it's how you play the market in eve.

      February 12, 2013 at 5:17 pm Reply
      1. Bots stopped operating 23/7 a long time ago (even market bots)

        February 13, 2013 at 3:26 am Reply
  23. Val_V

    The rate of order entry/update seems to be at the heart of CCP's case. If there is anyone else out there who can do it at similar speeds, then a YouTube demonstration might help to settle the matter and be in the interest of anyone else using a similar technique…

    February 12, 2013 at 3:54 am Reply
    1. BntyHunter

      I dont think they have a case…..If they did, they would have taken the ISK when he got banned in the beginning.

      You want Tinfoil, here it goes :)

      Just like the man said, Eve-Uni could buy how many Skill books? How many Plex`s?
      Now imagine CCP knows that just by taking this ISK that might appear to a fast glance it could be dirty, they can then have that many more Newbs buy Plex from them to cover what they need. They had a stat back a bit that the AVG Newb who plays 5 months buys 3 Plex`s.
      So imagine how many would have to just because this currency is gone.

      6k plexs, lets say they would have given away 2k worth. By killing the 2k Plexs you just made CCP 20 x 2k = 40 thousand dollars. Hell that one action justifies a employee`s salary. And best part is they get to say "Hey you were the one who had us review it further" and "Sorry but you are a 3rd party and we can`t tell you shit" and its perfect because that guy is gone with his account vanished forever….Perfect crime TBH.

      Tinfoil off.

      February 12, 2013 at 7:08 am Reply
      1. FA Grunt

        While I don't necessarily disagree with you I believe your math was off just slightly. 317bn was roughly equal to 600 plexes not 6000. So the numbers are blown somewhat out of proportion.

        As I said not disagreeing, simply reviewing the numbers :) Apologies if someone had already mentioned this.

        February 12, 2013 at 5:29 pm Reply
        1. BntyHunter

          My bad. Thanks man. Like I said even 200 = 4k per month

          February 12, 2013 at 7:38 pm Reply
  24. NullSecHoBo

    Yo CCP, someone put a leash on Sreegs.

    That money was not confiscated during the temp ban. Then it was when E-Uni petitioned to make sure they were clean. And then they were completely stonewalled.

    I'd hazard to guess that it's the same dick who messed up and is now intercepting all communications to save his own ass.

    February 12, 2013 at 4:08 am Reply
  25. hgjuglljg

    You can not keep them because you are not Goons. Silly you, asking stupid questions.

    February 12, 2013 at 5:14 am Reply
  26. karma

    bloody hell, everyone defending this guy with no evidence either way, are laughable, only "john" and ccp know whats truely going on, it does sound suspect imo a program giving him an advantage over others in the game client, if he wasnt too proud he would have just taken the slap on the wrist and been satisfied with his temp ban, sounds reasonable to me.
    we are only taking "johns" word for it that they gave no evidence

    February 12, 2013 at 5:52 am Reply
    1. Lugalbandak

      yeah , the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.

      cool i like that too , wouldnt do it cause i dont like to be banned , duhhh

      February 12, 2013 at 7:11 am Reply
  27. CCPMechanics Fail

    CCP FAIL… again…

    February 12, 2013 at 6:43 am Reply
  28. BntyHunter

    and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.

    Instead of everyone rushing in saying he is totally botting, think about it.

    CCP clears him after doing a investigation, then the guy he gives the ISK to from memory and emotionally is trying to re-tell a story to us, to explain his buddies actions. he says clearly nothing was automated then tells us a impossible stat of 1 contract per 2 secs.

    You guys honestly think CCP wouldnt have perma banned 315 bil that was traded at 1 contract per 2 secs?

    You dont think it more likely this guy didnt explain his program right and or stats right?

    Come on its common sense, he clearly says NO AUTOMATION, CCP CLEARLY LET HIM AND HIS ISK GO. Then because he writes a story with bogus stats thats what you hang onto ?

    Its like me explaining about a guy I look upto in an area I know little about and get the story wrong. Here I know nothing about lets say bombing….

    "My buddy killed a whole group of 15 fully fit [buffer tanked] Navy Apocs with 1 bomber and 1 run. I saw the KM and it was verified, CCP also saw it and verified it."

    Before we see a killmail with the 15 Napocs that he just posted, what should we be thinking?

    Well you guys would be thinking with the same train of thought….."He is cheating and some how is using a Exploit" but what we should actually be thinking is the most likely scenario.

    We know he killed 15 Napocs, because he is sure about the KM and has seen it before. We know a Bomb doesnt have enough DMG to kill a Napoc in 1 bomb hit. And we also know it was witnessed by another 3rd party [CCP]

    I would immediately start thinking "Maybe it was 2 bombs AKA not 1 run? Maybe the NAPOC`s were in an incursion and my source isn`t aware of it?

    It almost always is a lack of knowledge. It`s not the best analogy at all but it`s the same concept. The easiest answer by far is, this guy just confused 2 secs per contract, hell he could have meant 2 per minute and that would have been smoking fast…..What he clearly said was NOT AUTOMATED, what he was saying is it was fast enough for CCP to investigate, but CCP left it alone.

    If CCP came after it the first time and they even thought it was suspect he would not have the ISK or his toon back for that matter, they never would glance over that large of trades. Its more likely our story teller has it wrong.

    February 12, 2013 at 7:35 am Reply
    1. no one cleared him, he got FIRST STRIKE ban and was marked in the system as botter

      February 13, 2013 at 3:24 am Reply
  29. Guest123

    Business as usual in the uni, staff gets a free pass from Kelduum 10 times out of 10, regardless of what they do. Troll their own forums? Perfectly acceptable. RMT? Perfectly acceptable. Botting? Perfectly acceptable. Afterall, to admit that he has assigned an incompetent person to do a job is quite literally impossible or Kelduum.

    February 12, 2013 at 7:47 am Reply
  30. Klee

    @Kelduum: if u rage quit too .. can I have ur stuff?

    February 12, 2013 at 8:26 am Reply
  31. LOL.

    a few things:

    a) its quite obvious that the ISK gained by activities that violate the EULA can’t be kept, i don’t see why anyone expected any other outcome.

    b) updating 30 orders a minute, thats 1 order every two seconds. thats about the time the sell/buy order windows need to pop up and that you need to confirm them, it wont allow you to look at the price and determine the new one. there is no “ingame-website” you could make that would allow you to do it at that rate. even if you create a software that gives you all current prices right next to a link linking to the item you need more than 2 seconds. Keeping that rate up for 10 to 20 minutes? Right.

    c) All that the EVE Uni guy has, and seems to want to see is the way his Friend explained it to him, that does not mean CCP hasn’t got more / better information on this subject. Not releasing those Information to him is totally legit – hell, too much information on what CCP can actually detect would just make it harder for them to detect bot-using scumbags.

    d) Security (not only with ccp) is a department which needs to operate under quite alot freedom, otherwise they can’t do their job. However, they still report to management, and if you feel that petitions aren’t handled right CCP has a (sub)-department (of Security) for that: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Internal_affair… This is where the eve-uni guy should have complained. Not on his Forums, not in Public, and not through the extend of the blogosphere.

    so frankly: stop proxy whining, this is disgusting.

    February 12, 2013 at 9:05 am Reply
    1. Anon

      "b) updating 30 orders a minute, thats 1 order every two seconds. thats about the time the sell/buy order windows need to pop up and that you need to confirm them, it wont allow you to look at the price and determine the new one. there is no "ingame-website" you could make that would allow you to do it at that rate. even if you create a software that gives you all current prices right next to a link linking to the item you need more than 2 seconds. Keeping that rate up for 10 to 20 minutes? Right."

      Actually there is. EveMentat does just this, it provides you with the igb websites which update your orders to the prices you've set beforehand.

      February 12, 2013 at 11:57 am Reply
      1. LOL.

        eh? the list it shows you ingame lists all your orders and allows you to open the market of that order quickly.
        out of game it provides you with a functionality, that allows you to have "recommended" prices copied to your clipboard.

        i just tried for quite a few minutes to get a feel what the fastest possible speed is that i could achieve.
        editing an order using two screens, eve client in one, eve mentat in the other cost me about 17 seconds (lowest during 20 tries, average at 20)

        February 12, 2013 at 2:26 pm Reply
      2. BntyHunter

        So its proxy bidding basically?

        I always blew at market pew.

        February 12, 2013 at 7:42 pm Reply
  32. U-MAD

    Ivy League at it again trying to act better than everyone else. Just because you have a CSM doesn't mean things should be "given" to you!
    http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=corp_detail&…

    Yes with this said we shall continue our war indefinitely!

    February 12, 2013 at 10:16 am Reply
  33. trol is as trol doh

    Lol a double your isk scheme that worked and it wasnt in Jita and ccp takes the isk back classic. LOL CCP has no sense of humour.

    February 12, 2013 at 10:37 am Reply
  34. Bob from india

    And this happens if your Outsource Game-Master Services. (Confirmed by CCP Phantom in a german Podcast)

    February 12, 2013 at 12:02 pm Reply
    1. fdafdq

      it has nothing to do with outsourcing you twat.

      February 12, 2013 at 12:16 pm Reply
    2. Guest123

      And what exactly is that? Kelduum accusing CCP of not investigating on their own security team, all the while taking his buddies word at face value? The hypocricy presented is both downright hilarious and sad at the same time.

      February 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm Reply
  35. iskbot#1337

    the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow,
    meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.

    WTF means update ? If he create 30 orders per minute it clearly would be perma-banned and it clearly
    would be automation which he said it wasn´t.
    I think he only create and used a in-game-browser-script to export the market data of his traded items.
    Which would clearly be automation but not illegal.
    It would explain the word update and why CCP don´t perma-banned him and take his money at the first time.
    The typical 3d party apps ( http://www.vahrokh.com/2012/07/market-auto-cachin… ) need approximately
    2 seconds per item to export all orders.

    The question is … would it be illegal if you automated nonstop run market-data export scripts to use it
    in 3d party chart-analysis apps to have simultaneous full-control of big amount of itemcosts for trading.

    This is interesting in as far as I maybe have to reconsider my way of working.

    February 12, 2013 at 2:26 pm Reply
  36. Meaple of Syndicate

    So, we the players want the security team to focus on bots and botting and quickly and efficiently ban them with the exception that they waste their time dilly dallying and go through a lengthy and resource wasting judicial process when ever they happen to ban a bot/cheater from a big alliance.

    What could go wrong?!

    Cheater down, eve is better for it.

    February 12, 2013 at 3:23 pm Reply
  37. Banhammer

    Head of CCP Security considers cache scraping to be "illegal" (lol!) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts
    "You won't be banned for it today." implies that you will be at a later date.

    *Grabs some popcorn and prepares to watch everyone using EVEMon get banned* (Yes, EVEMon has cache scraping enabled by default)

    February 12, 2013 at 4:44 pm Reply
  38. >.>

    So, let me get this straight.

    A botter is found and dealt with (choosing to biomass his characters after he was found out), and unloads all his botted ISK to E-UNI as a 'donation'.

    Recognizing this as odd, E-UNI Director petitions CCP to make sure the ISK is legit.

    CCP confirms that the ISK was illegal, and removes it, stating that they cannot comment on a security matter to someone not involved.

    ^——– This is where a normal person would shrug, and count themselves lucky they didn't get embroiled in a security investigation and possibly be wrongfully accused later.

    Instead, E-UNI Director escalates to hell and back, trying to justify that the ISK removal was uncalled for, and that it was legit, because the botter said he didn't bot, and is a nice guy.

    CCP repeatedly says that the ISK was illegal. And reiterates multiple times that they can't comment on a case to a third party. Because that's how it is supposed to work.

    E-UNI Director then conjures a drama storm accusing Security of having no oversight, able to confiscate ISK for no reason other than someone is "too successful".

    Now there are riots in the streets of CCP abusing its authority, and everyone is froth-mouthed at the evident slight against the playerbase.

    E-UNI Director…

    The ISK wasn't yours, it came from a botter.

    I get that the botter was your friend and worked hard, but he was a botter.

    You don't get to keep botted ISK because your friend the botter donated it to your corp.

    I am sure that temporarily feeling like an OTEC baron with all that ISK was intoxicating, but that doesn't change the fact that CCP told you multiple times that it was dirty money from a dirty source.

    No amount of tantrum throwing is going to get you your bot-filled piggy bank back.

    February 12, 2013 at 7:59 pm Reply
  39. srsly man

    One one hand it's just a game, on the other hand CCP runs things like shit. Why not focus on high-level RMT, you know, the thing that actually ruins the whole game top-down. How bout eve-u and the rest of us go play a new space game, maybe they'll wake up then.

    February 12, 2013 at 8:48 pm Reply
  40. PL squadie

    I would assume CCP only leave isk because it is difficult in many cases how much isk was illegitimate. In the case of someone buying RMT isk, a lump sum is pretty easy… 10000 trades every month using isk that may or may not have been illegally gained? Who knows. Also if I was CCP I would just watch to see where all that isk goes after you temp ban people. Following the gains of crime is often more incriminating then the crime itself. Be glad you did the right thing and didn't just spend that isk.

    The other response would be that someone donated a sizable sum of isk to eve uni and it has been conveniently lost.. A reason would be needed. We all know however that noone in eve would ever do such a thing of course, just thought I would point it out.

    February 12, 2013 at 8:56 pm Reply
  41. PCP_Bananaman

    Wholly support CCP in the action they took. Pretty clear from this reply that both Kelduum and Poetic held back on the grittier details in an attempt to garner momentum behind their quest to keep this, clearly dirty, ISK.

    The only question remaining was why the ISK was left initially, which is fully answered by Sreegs, in this completely transparent communicative manner you're all bemoaning does not exist:

    "We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained"

    So, Kelduum ignores this, keeps petitioning, takes it public in a rather blatant attempt to get the ignorant to rail against the decision. Very poor, lost a lot of respect for the guy from this.

    February 12, 2013 at 10:29 pm Reply
    1. Rkanon

      I love how their logs show things when it's convenient for THEM.

      February 13, 2013 at 12:10 am Reply
  42. you

    ooh i know what happened! I was in a dualboxing corp, and CCP got PISSED that a guy asked if it was alright to run his mouse pointer in the exact same place on both screens, essentially making a double lock possible. CCP replied it was not a violaiton of the tos, but later banned him when he used those characters to kill a much more prominent member, when that member complained that it looked like the dual boxer was botting. Essentially, they pissed off either goons, test, pl, solar, or someone prominent and that red phone next to the toilet in the white house got used for the first time since Marlyn Monroe called the CIA to order pizza during the Kennedy administration.

    C'mon CCP if you had nothing to hide, you would be more transparent. Heck, maybe some lessons can be taught over this. I think he found the win button for the economy, and CCP doesnt want to get caught with their pants down for not catching it in a reasonable time. Team Security, losing at REAL SECURITY since they were formed. Rule #3 of internet security, dont put a gamer as a head o security, he will suck at it every time.

    February 13, 2013 at 5:31 am Reply
  43. EveUniSoButtHurt

    "This is about an action that CCP has taken (legitimate or not)" – I stopped reading here, I can see where this idiot is going…

    February 13, 2013 at 2:06 pm Reply

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