On the latest episode of Shunners and Sinners podcast they get into a short discussion of the almost-war between CFC and HBC and start talking about how the war was averted because no one wanted to grind the trillions of structure hitpoints involved to wage this war.



The structures we are primarily talking about, TCUs, SBUs, and IHubs, existed as of November 2009 when Dominion was released. Another structure to grind, POSes, have existed since many years earlier.

You got that? This shit is not new.

How many wars do you think the members of the alliances that make up the CFC and HBC have been in since late 2009? That’s 3+ years for the chronologically impaired, and includes more recent highlights like the scouring of IT from Fountain and Delve, the crushing of White Noise and NCdot, the brushing aside of the Southern Coalition and vanquishing of Triple A… etc etc etc. Go ahead, think on it for a minute. I’ll wait.


Ok, now consider this: what the hell has changed in early 2013 to suddenly make the thought of an all out war with an enemy that will bring huge good fights that, ostensibly, everyone wants such an unbearable burden that the leaders of said coalitions will do anything to avoid all out war?

The answer is, of course, nothing… and everything. But this post is not about the reasons for why that war was aborted. No, this post is a message to all those CFC and HBC grunts who are spouting structure grinds as a reason for not having a war, and the message is simply this: don’t buy into your own propaganda. It makes you look foolish.

This is not about structure grinds, its about protecting space empires.

– Kirith Kodachi

We are proud to bring you the stories, opinions and musings of a long time pilot who has dabbled in everything New Eden has to offer, he writes and podcasts about his opinions and adventures at

Send us Intel/Corrections via dropbox or shoot us an e-mail


  1. PLblowgoats

    One must remember that at the end of the day,

    * Goon has PL by the balls because their tech moons are in their backyard.
    * PL has TEST by the balls because without PL or with PL on the CFC side, TEST are utter shit. (PL also hold sway amongst some big N3 corps).
    * Goons thus has TEST by the balls until the tech whores get off the moon goo habit.

    Considering that PL has been a moon goo junkie whore ever since the fall of the old NC, I don't see them giving up on their RMT empire any time soon and thus the status quo will continue. Structure point grinding is just a bad excuse.

    February 7, 2013 at 10:13 pm Reply
    1. PL in a quandry

      But as PL are so mercenary it test+N3 did go after goons, as they started flipping stuff i dont think PL would side with Goon. If they back the losing side and test wipe Goons out, they would have burned their tech bridge – what would test have to gain by giving PL tech moons when they didnt need them? and that would leave PL out in the cold, hence them not wanting a right as picking a side is very tricky for them.

      February 7, 2013 at 10:54 pm Reply
      1. Nyv

        PL were mercenaries. Unless someone offers them techmoons, I don't think they'll accept any real contract putting their current ones under pressure.
        But of course, they don't want to back goon and end up with test winning. Without them in the HBC, it's not the most likely outcome, but it's a big risk they're not willing to take. Instead, they do everything in their power to keep the deadlock up and avoid having to choose a side.

        February 7, 2013 at 11:37 pm Reply
        1. DavefromTI

          PL were mercs for an entire 2 weeks. Then became members of DRF then became the dead bitter vet carcass it is now.

          February 8, 2013 at 7:57 am Reply
  2. nullseclord

    War was averted because no one wanted to risk their RMT operations…

    February 7, 2013 at 10:22 pm Reply
    1. srsly man

      T R U T H

      February 7, 2013 at 10:47 pm Reply
    2. xxxxx


      February 8, 2013 at 5:38 pm Reply
      1. Soares

        No, no. You need more subtery on your damage control usage, bro.

        February 11, 2013 at 12:58 am Reply
  3. Duder

    I think its just a bunch of dudes pressuring CCP to look at sov mechanics sooner rather than later, much like was done with tracking titans… no tin foil hats around here.

    February 7, 2013 at 10:29 pm Reply
    1. PL Duder

      I kind of hope so, If they fixed Moons as fast as they nerfed Titans it would be fixed what? Tmrw

      February 8, 2013 at 7:00 am Reply
  4. Rammstein

    Want to know what other shit is not new?

    The fact that propaganda is primarily employed against the propaganda users' own countrymen. Not new. Not at all.

    If the exhortation "Don't believe your 'own' propaganda" had a snowball's chance in hell of working, then people wouldn't bother to use it. You're pissing into the wind, here.

    February 7, 2013 at 10:34 pm Reply
  5. o.o

    I was rather surprised how many "ZOMG CCP FIX SOV WE CANT EVEN SOV WAR!" threads on the forums there have been since HBC/CFC leadership threw it out there as the reason "no one wants a war"…

    February 7, 2013 at 10:38 pm Reply
  6. Guest

    Why fight when you have nothing to gain?

    February 7, 2013 at 10:39 pm Reply
    1. Nyv

      Because you already have enough money and it's time to start having fun ?

      February 7, 2013 at 11:38 pm Reply
    2. Seraph IX Basarab

      Because there's so much to gain in Provi?

      February 7, 2013 at 11:49 pm Reply
  7. Boobtube

    Ncdot and white noise crushed??? Lol wtf are you on about. Ncdot with white noise hammered -a- to lgk as always. White noise disbanded internally was never crushed, and ncdot have never been crushed. The faintest glimpse would be CFCs hollow victory over dotbros, and that's seen as the war dotbros lost not cfc won.

    February 7, 2013 at 11:00 pm Reply
    1. INKbob

      More like the war that Dotbros abandoned…

      The irony is that if that war was going on right now, I think it would turn out different. :)

      February 8, 2013 at 12:54 am Reply
  8. Dave from FA

    wow you're good you should write for EVE24…. oh hold on….. no….. wait

    February 7, 2013 at 11:36 pm Reply
  9. Seraph IX Basarab

    Clearly the sov mechanics are different in Provi than elsewhere. Only logical explanation.

    February 7, 2013 at 11:37 pm Reply
  10. Anon

    It's easy… Shittoo said structure grinding was shit , so no war happened and pl continued to………. structure grind
    Why continue to post the obvious?
    The real war will happen in jita with the forming of the notec cartel with the only losers being people who like to bow up tech 2 shit.
    I have a question tho? How does shadow know so much about having your vagina stretch durin childbirth?

    February 8, 2013 at 12:00 am Reply
    1. OTEC = No Balls

      Why continue to post the obvious?

      Too many people are drinking the kool aid. Better to educate the masses for the real reason why CFC HBC is so chicken shit to get dirty. If they hated SOV grinding so much then why the fuck did blob the shit out of several wars last year? Cause curb stomping smaller empires implies no risk so their fat fingered tech habit.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:57 am Reply
  11. Cannonball1

    Thank you for repeating what reasonably intelligent nullsec players have been saying for months: It's not about sov grinding; sov grinding's never stopped ANYONE ever before. It's all about finding an excuse to ensure their empires and income remain intact.

    February 8, 2013 at 12:11 am Reply
    1. BntyHunter

      Its Goons best defense TBH…To make it seem like it will take forever. But if we actually did it, I bet we could break CFC [not GSF since they wouldnt recover] fairly quick

      February 8, 2013 at 3:02 am Reply
  12. INKbob

    We in INK are sov grinding on a regular basis, its part of the game in null-sec, so yeah, we all know its Mitannis bullshit. I really dont wanna beleive it's all about RMT, but what else could it be about? You expect us to believe that you all luv null-sec PVE so much?? Come on, be real.

    February 8, 2013 at 12:56 am Reply
  13. Charles Darwin

    I think the difference between these and previous structure grinds is that the sheer amount if space is significantly more, especially when you consider that even with the numbers advantage HBC and their NIP partners (everyone except solar) have against the CFC it still would be far from the walkover -A- was. They'd be made to fight for every structure and there would be hundreds, if not more than a thousand timers. Add to that the risk that CFC inactives rage sub and the invasion grinds to a halt and HBC has a very real risk of failure.

    February 8, 2013 at 1:57 am Reply
    1. Addrake

      Because once one side is obviously losing, it's not like a few regions worth of current cfc or hbc members wouldn't defect, making it unneccessary to grind those systems while still reaping all the rewards. "Politics" and all that. This deal was strictly shadoo hedging his bets.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:07 am Reply
    2. BntyHunter

      Yeah, people need to realize there is almost 40% more stations than there was when we cleared out NC

      And with the NC, we knew if we made deals at the end, since they were so worn down and since NC unlike CFC spread the wealth around a lot where as GSF takes 80% the wealth and acts like the federal Govt, we knew the NC would evac and swap systems and control.

      And thats what happend, but then DRF took over and WN-Raiden-NCDOT all put up a ton more stations al while CFC has been doing for 3 years from Tec.

      It is simply 40% more work, and DRF had 6 major influences meaning they each made pacts with the NC members to evac. Now GSF would tell CFC to fight to the last man and ISK, just like the ww2 germans so they could end up making a deal to survive, and since we would be so worn out we might take it.

      Basically the NC`s republic style Govt was easier to attack and beat even though they had a superior military to CFC. CFC has not given there members enough wealth to go on there own, so the members are addicted to the mothers Tit.

      Anyways answer is 40% more structures+ Mittens telling them never to Evac and make deals, meaning every system has to be fought for where as the NC`s was just each states major capitals.

      Lastly Mittens knows if he makes it seem like it will be hell to grind and he will never evac/deal HBC will hesitate since it is sooooo much work, look how we [NCDOT] made CFC bleed for Tribute, now imagine 25k players doing what they can in a similar fashion, they would be crushed but time would be cruel.

      February 8, 2013 at 3:00 am Reply
      1. VFK by May

        Offer the CFC grunts an option. If they dont log in for the duration of the war, dont appear on a killboard, after the war their corp history wont be held against them. But if they fight in the defence of VFK they will be blacklisted from the winning coalitions.

        they have the option to fight, or to keep their skill points.

        February 8, 2013 at 7:55 am Reply
  14. Mario

    Its all about the tech. Shadoo is afraid to potentially lose his tech holdings. It would take nothing for Mittens to flip PL moons, and there would be little PL the HBC or the HBC + N3 could do about it. Shadoo is a risk averse faggot. There is a reason PL doesn't hold sov, and it is because they choose to rent income from sperge lords like TEST and GSF.

    PL is a cancer in EVE, under Shadoos leadership PL has become dependent on sucking as much as they can by any alliance they can latch themselves on to. Shadoo is a pussy the only reason Monty didn't get his war is because Shadoo was afraid of losing his tech moons. The only reason PL sided with TEST initially is the numbers, and the fact they would inherit the NOTEC empire. Hell Shadoo is even humping the legs of N3 to sponge off their moons.

    TEST would be better served siding with the N3, and cutting PL. GSF would be best to cut PL. Let PL rot, they are risk averse faggots.

    Because of Tech is why this didn't happen. Not because of sov. Shadoo is a giant flapping pussy, and like AAA will die in the fire he deserves in time.

    February 8, 2013 at 6:46 am Reply
  15. Nerf TECH and SUPERS


    February 8, 2013 at 3:47 pm Reply
  16. Not a Pet

    Omfg. This again. Ffs wake the fuck up. Stop whinning. Even if there is no sov war, pvp happens. Every fucking day. Yiu guys just want these entities to destroy themselves just because you couldnt cut it in null sec. Face the music. You all lost and are all terrible at eve. Nothing stopped you from making coalitions but you simply didnt.

    You failed to adapt and you lost. In the real worlds its called natural selection. In the real world, youd all be slaves now because you lost wars.

    Right now, we have tge opportunity to pvp without having to grind. Weve been grinding for over 3 years and alit of us are hapy to not do it this time. Plus how many of you always cry about blobs. How thats not pvp. And now you want sov warfare which is nothing but blobs. So again, stop crying about it. Get in yiur ships and fucking roam. THAT is pvp.

    February 8, 2013 at 5:11 pm Reply
    1. Elise Kardeshian

      when there is no Sov war many carebears like Tech tower owners laying low. get that in your head, you stupid PET!

      February 8, 2013 at 5:16 pm Reply
      1. Not a Pet

        I would request that you reply with a coherent sentence please. It is hard to make a counter argument to a sentence such as yours. I've known 4 years old who speak better than you write.

        February 8, 2013 at 8:00 pm Reply
      2. Smiling Joe

        Not Pets, not renters, no fees paid to live in space, no giving up the good assets in a system either. Systems controlled by HBC members are controlled by HBC members. I haven't seen a testie in a month or more.

        February 8, 2013 at 9:10 pm Reply
  17. FA grunt

    Just stating this is a pointless article but at the same time official we have no mutual blues anymore so hostility is there but also coalition leadership on both sides are butt buddies….things need to happen at a grunt level so leadership has to make a stance or suffer a cascade fail. Example a grunt level taking over of sov

    February 8, 2013 at 8:47 pm Reply
  18. BntyHunter

    You are an idiot.

    First off NCDOT was made and named to only troll the NC and was originally created to kill them and ultimately vanquish them…..IT WAS A TROLL YOU MORON.

    In the beginning which you prob wern`t around for. No one called us NCDOT, so when KB`s came out with our Alliance newbs thought we were NC and it was hilarious we got like thousands of the funniest applications ever. NC also got so pissed that people were mixing them up they actually tried to offer us to not use name.

    The rest of your post is non sense. We didnt leave because we wanted to, we left because GSF/CFC stopped fighting us except for timers where they brought 900 vs our 200 guys. Also we left because Nulli needed our help to gain Sov.

    You are stupid beyond words. Also this post was about how there is a lot more infrastructure to grind now, but I cant see YOU DONT READ GOOD

    February 8, 2013 at 9:13 pm Reply
  19. pqe

    another trash article on a trash site

    February 9, 2013 at 12:28 am Reply
  20. Noisrevbus

    Congratulations, you just buffed the largest coalitions to the point where nothing can touch them anymore – even less so than what is done today.

    The powerbase of both the CFC and the HBC lie in amassment of numbers and free ships that can be lost without denting a warchest.

    The last time CCP nerfed Supers the direct result was the HBC. The HBC was born out of the Supernerf, alongside most other amalgamations of smaller alliances that had their powerbase in Supers.

    If you want to nerf the coalitions, nerf free ships. That's the real reason for the numbers arms-race.

    I made this comment in Ripard's article also published today, and i think it suits Kirith's article as well.

    1 Titan have the same cost attached to it as 1000 BS, 2000 BC or 10.000 Cruisers.

    You need about 300 (i said 200 in the past post, but that was a stretch) to begin forcing a group to match your numbers or field Supers, just based on sheer alpha: 300 x 10.000 = 3m (incidentally the EHP of a Capital).

    Then you can't have less pilots and fly anything smaller, no fancy Tech III Cruisers, Faction BS or well-concerted use of Capitals.

    So the price of forcing people to begin fielding Supers in the first place, amount to 1/3 the price of a single Titan.

    That's the economy whacked up for you – and the real reason the HBC and CFC choose "gudfites" over strategic war, much like the rest of us who look for "gudfites" in cheap hulls elsewhere.

    Even the spontaneous Asakai-brawl hit full TiDi and 100% CPU. Keep that in mind too.

    All roads lead to a boring doctrinal and laggy stalemate of a Rome.

    More roams, less Romans plx.

    February 9, 2013 at 12:44 am Reply
    1. Noisrevbus

      I'd like to add this piece of wisdom too:

      Let's say you are a small-gang group in Bombers (like the Bomber's bar).

      You successfully and completely total-hell-death a 100-man BC3 gang with a perfectly timed 3-wave bomb-run.

      You have now inflicted about 3b damage in assets (assuming the fitting + insurance per BC3 is about 30m).

      That 3b is then splashed out over an entire coalition's SRP.

      You could also find a single dwaddle running a Carrier, Dread, Tech II or Faction BS with a fair amount of pimp in a Sanctum and you will have inflicted a similar amount of damage. An amount of damage that probably will also not be covered by coalition-level SRP and actually impact the player with the loss.

      Nothing against the Bomber's Bar, what they do is awesome – but it puts the kills in an EVE-economy perspective. That awesome full-fleet kill does not have an economic impact beyond catching a single dwaddler in a mission.

      February 9, 2013 at 12:56 am Reply
      1. Noisrevbus

        Oh yes, and if that BC3 gang were Tornados they'd alpha 100 x 10k = 1m EHP and force you to consider fielding Capitals worth more than 3b to deal with them, on paper.

        Ofc, what i'm saying here does not take the stupidity of an unruly horde into account and assume that they can actually focus and time fire perfectly. It should however give you gist of the underlying economy-issues in EVE. Those issues being bottomed-out ship values among Tech I subcaps that explode the value of pilot numbers.

        February 9, 2013 at 1:09 am Reply
  21. lol goons

    Uhh, yes, Deklein Coalition still exists, they will never go to war. They all goons, all bads.

    February 9, 2013 at 6:05 am Reply
  22. 2manno

    Isnt this more about the HBC and CFC leadership banding together in EVEs very first players union to stand up to CCP in an attempt to force SOV and POS changes?

    Im sure the players want to fight and would probably grind structures if necessary … so I cant help but feel the tension between CCPs lack of attention to null, and the players that live there.

    February 9, 2013 at 2:03 pm Reply
    1. Goon grunt

      this guy is a moron.

      February 10, 2013 at 5:08 pm Reply
  23. zzz

    lol what a moron, "i don't understand why people won't do a tedious thing after they've just done it for the past three years".

    February 11, 2013 at 11:16 am Reply
  24. qwer

    They aren't afraid of sov grind, they are afraid of things they aren't used to: opponent that is actually capable of bringing same numbers to the field as them.

    Watch Goonswarm, TEST and PL history and you will notice that they actually haven't either done it for many years or even never.

    February 11, 2013 at 2:40 pm Reply

Leave a Reply