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ripard_jester

Warning: the following post is ridiculously long.  You have been warned.

Fractals are one of the few concepts in math where the phrase “I’m not sure what it is, but I know it when I see it” applies.  The most famous quality of fractals is that they are “self-similar“: a large fractal is typically made up of many — often infinite — smaller fractals, each of which looks similar to the whole.  See the fern to the right, where each of the three smaller boxed pieces looks like the whole, as would all of the increasingly smaller pieces.  For this reason, it’s also difficult or impossible to measure the outside edge of a fractal: as you zoom in, the outside edge that appears to be straight reveals itself to be almost infinitely long, curved, and complex.

Self-similarity is the easiest concept of fractals to understand.  If I plot the temperature curve for a single day where you live, it will start very low at midnight, dip a bit more as dawn approached, rapidly climb as the sun came up, flatten at the top, then drop rapidly to the point where it began.  If I plot the temperature curve for an entire year, it would behave similarly: in the northern hemisphere, it would start low in January, dip a bit more as you approached the deepest part of winter, rapidly climb through spring and summer, then drop rapidly during fall until winter began again.  As I zoom in on the annual temperature curve, I find that it’s made up of a lot of relatively tiny daily temperature curves that look the same as the whole.

The same concept applies in a startling number of other areas: stock prices over an hour will tend to look like stock prices over a day will tend to look like stock prices over a year.  The curves of segments of the coast of my home state of California look like the curve of the whole.  An entire planetary system with a star and orbiting planets looks very similar to a single atom which is a basic building block of all matter.

Got it?  Good.  Let’s apply it to EVE Online.

Focus: CSM Summit Minutes, “The Next Decade” session

During this session, CCP Unifex makes one thing clear again and again: EVE “can have a broader appeal without losing the things that make it EVE.”  CCP Seagull makes clear that she wants to engage all of us on three levels: as customers, as players, and as characters.  At the middle level, she wants to make sure we all remember that “you can be a solo-playing carebear, and still be part of the overall player community.”  Then she adds, “Sometimes we become victims of things that are already in the game, and it becomes hard to talk about higher level things.”

I want to talk about two of those things, but not just yet.  Let’s get through the rest of this introduction first.

Seagull mentions that she wants to start this effort by looking at two things.  First, she brings up that she sees two important types of players she wants to make the game less bad for, which she calls “instigators” and “enablers”.  Instigators are leaders of people and planners of campaigns.  Enablers are the people who make those plans possible, through task management, logistics… and by providing resources.  “We kind of have a history of treating these people like… shit,” Seagull says (correctly).

Second, she says (also correctly) we’re having a hard time as a community guiding new players into activities that they might find fun:

As a young player, you go on the website and you decide you want to be a pirate, for example, and then you come into the game and you go ‘OK, What should I do now?’ And we’re not doing a great job of mapping people into those things that they can do.

Finally, Seagull wants to engage more with three types of players, who she classes as “lurkers” (solo players), “followers” (people who want to connect to existing small scale communities), and “small scale leaders.”  Got all that?  Good, here’s the important bit:

This is not a question of this type of things being available only in null-sec. Once you decide what kind of player you are, there are other parameters that affect how risk averse you are and where you decide to place your game play. But in terms of product development, these three design targets apply across [all areas of space.]

Remember, this isn’t me saying these things.  This is the Senior Producer of EVE Online Development.  She wants to open up the game to all styles of play at all levels of risk aversity.  I’ve already made a joke about seagull managers.  Those of you who think she’s already started making noise and crapping on things may start blaming her, not me.

But in the meantime, I happen to agree with her: I think there’s room in EVE for all types of EVE play.  Even people who insist on being high-sec “lurker” “enablers.”  You know them as solo high-sec miners and missioners.  Or null-sec “small-scale leader” “instigators.”  You know them as the leaders of small-gang PvP alliances.  Two types of players that EVE is currently “treating like… shit”, to quote the poet.

And that’s where fractals and self-similarity comes in.

Let’s start with the latter group.  Seagull describes their problem with a level of understatement that is impressive: “Right now, politics form an entrenched barrier to becoming an instigator that is extremely high.”  Translation?  It’s freakin’ hard in this game to become an FC.  Then it’s even harder to become a corp leader.  Harder still, becoming an alliance leader.  Then it’s even harder to build that alliance from a small group of players to a force to be reckoned with in New Eden.  Matter of fact, if you don’t have some pretty good sponsorship, you can’t do any of those things at all in this game.  I assure you, this is happening no matter how far you zoom out or zoom in.  That’s an extremely high barrier, all right.

For example, try taking an existing small alliance into null-sec and taking some sov.  If you’re not sponsored by one of the already-established players, you’re going to get absolutely stomped.  The other night while talking on Declarations of War, I mentioned that null-sec should look like a current world map:

  • big enormous players like the United States, Russia, and China; then,
  • medium size players like Germany, France, Venezuela, Egypt, Israel, and Brazil; then,
  • small scale players — some of whom are rogue nations and some of whom are not — like Iran, Yemen, North Korea, Poland, South Africa, and Costa Rica.

There should be a hell of a lot more members of the bottom two categories than of the top, and they should all be free to operate independently.  What we have in EVE today isn’t anything even remotely like that.  How do we get there?  I haven’t a clue.  But what we’ve got today is the United States and countries like it owning (say) all of North and South America and parceling out little scraps of land to favored (and ever-changing) toadies.

The stupid un-fun “everyone is blue” mess that results in much of null is the result.  When Rote Kapelle roams, I want to cross 50 borders over the course of a small-gang PvP roam, not two.  And I want to encounter the small gangs defending those borders.  And there should be the possibility that Rote Kapelle and all these other little groups can set up our own rogue Yemen-like state somewhere…

  • without having to make a sign of obedience; and,
  • without getting hilariously instantly monkey-stomped by the big brother next door; and,
  • without going through the horrible pain that goes with claiming, holding, and attacking sov.

Again, how do we get there?  Dunno.  Haven’t a clue!  But the null-sec game isn’t gonna be worth a damn soon if CCP can’t figure out a route.  It’d sure be a hell of a lot more fun than what we have today.  The big players could still have their massive wars, but there would be room for people who don’t want to play EVE that way, too.

Ever seen the EVE Chinese server Serenity’s sov map?  It has seven colors on it.  We’re getting there.

So players end having to join a monster coalition, where it takes forever to be a corp leader or an alliance leader or an FC… and then these monster coalitions wonder why no-freakin’-body wants to venture out of high-sec.  Here’s a thought: you have set up an “enormous political barrier” to them doing so.  And it exists at every level from the micro to the macro.  Individual players can’t join without 10 million skill points.  Corps can’t join without a solid kill-board record.  Alliances can’t join without making the sign of obedience.  Zoom in, zoom out, it all looks the same.

Let’s move on to the other group, the lurker enablers.  Here’s what CCP Unifex has to say about them:

Unifex reminded the CSM once again that this group, the lurking single players who are already subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility.

Read it again, ’cause I’m pretty sure you didn’t understand it the first time: there’s a hell of a lot more of them than there are of us.  And we’re treating them like shit.  As I’ve already mentioned, the “level 80s” are preying on them, but that isn’t even the worst thing.  The worst thing is that we’re not even giving them the option to play this game any other way.  As a new player in EVE, you’ve got three choices of you want to keep playing this game:

  1. Join a monster low- or null-sec coalition as a “pubbie scrublord.”  These will spend the next couple of years being told just how bad they are.
  2. Join a whole corp of “pubbie scrublords” in a high-sec corp.  These will spend the next couple of years being preyed on by level 80s.
  3. Try to fly solo under the radar and let this game try to almost literally strangle you in your crib.

Any of those options sound fun to you?  Yet thousands of new EVE players are stuck on the horns of this dilemma.  I hear from an absolute ton of new players every week asking my advice on what path they should take.  Fortunately, there are a few “none of the above” options, but not many.  Unifex mentions a couple, then makes it clear he has our number here, too: “the vast majority of corps in EVE are simply off-limits for various reasons,” before adding “CCP wants to turn this around, he wants to turn this around by creating more things that corporations would want players to help them with.”

And again, this exists at every level of the game, from the micro to the macro.  The people who started down one of these paths and escaped it somehow become the level 80s preying on the new generation.  “I paid my dues, now pay yours,” they say, as Forbes magazine puts it when describing the habits of corporate bullies.  Then the big corps say that to the little corps and bully them.  Then the big alliances say that to the little alliances and bully them.

And just like how many null-sec residents simply can’t understand why high-sec players want nothing to do with their style of play, members of massive null-sec coalitions wonder why NPC null-sec or FW low-sec residents in small-gang PvP alliances don’t want anything to do with theirs.  But then both groups shrug, describe them as “bads” and go back to their business.  The superior players regard the inferior ones as sub-human and say their style of play should be nerfed until it’s impossible to enjoy.  “CCP, force these idiots to play the game my way!” they say.  Zoom in all you want.  Zoom out all you want.  It all looks the same… a self-similar fractal.

OK.  Deep breath.  In the Reddit thread and argument that’s forming about “Ripard said what?”, maccabeus posted a fantastic, fantastic response (edited slightly):

This is EVE. You are immortal, and you have infinite potential. You have limitless technology at your fingertips, and limitless power to earn.  Whether you PvE or PvP, you are only playing the game wrong if you are content to never improve.

Seagull again: “We should be able to say we’re now looking at shaking up the stale experience of instigators and enablers in this area of the game, and we’ll tie that into the theme of whatever we’re doing.  These are the types of conversations we should be able to have.”

That’s why I’m bringing this up.  We should be able to talk about this and ask the question: are we happy that this is how EVE is?  Even if the eventual answer is “yes.”

Oh and by the way?  Asking these sorts of questions and getting the perspective of players and then taking those perspectives to CCP is why I’m running for CSM8.  Just in case you’re curious.

Ripard Teg

Send us Intel/Corrections via dropbox or shoot us an e-mail

If you would like to read more we invite you to visit his blog here.

67 Comments

  1. blobber

    I read it all. I have a lot of comments about your analog, but I will sumarize them with this. You have my vote.

    January 30, 2013 at 1:17 pm Reply
  2. n3biatch

    You have mine to

    January 30, 2013 at 1:31 pm Reply
  3. Goongrunt

    I know, it's completely offtopic and jester was just going to take it as an "example" to explain what seagull stands for, but:

    "- big enormous players like the United States, Russia, and China; then,
    – medium size players like Germany, France, Venezuela, Egypt, Israel, and Brazil; then,
    – small scale players — some of whom are rogue nations and some of whom are not — like Iran, Yemen, North Korea, Poland, South Africa, and Costa Rica."

    I don't know by what you are categorizing these nations but hell is this hilarious…

    If you go by km² per nation, then i don't know why you took Brazil to the medium size players. It's nearly the size USA and China have. Or why you took Iran to the small size players. It's nearly 5 times greater than Germany. Canada?! Australia?!

    If you go by GNP or anything similar, then Russia is totaly wrong in the big size players. They are lower medium size players. There's also Japan missing in your list as a big size player and even Germany must be one of them. And if you count Egypt as medium size players, South Africa, Iran and Poland are also one.

    January 30, 2013 at 1:55 pm Reply
    1. anon

      He's going by "super power" status

      January 30, 2013 at 2:14 pm Reply
      1. anon

        neither of you can read. he said, "If you go by km2 per nation… Iran… [is] nearly 5 times [bigger] than Germany." period. end of.

        there was no mention of Canada relating to that statement, and no mention of status.

        January 30, 2013 at 6:11 pm Reply
    2. Onion-y Goodness

      iran is 5 x bigger than canada? get your eyes checked. or stop falling asleep in geography class.

      January 30, 2013 at 5:06 pm Reply
    3. BntyHunter

      Size doesn`t= Power

      LOL But I see how you as a Goon think so

      Your Avg Goon = .25 N3/PL player in Skill/Avg ISK/Will to fight

      But its hard to explain to a blobber how power is more than warm bodies.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:11 pm Reply
    4. U R Dum

      After reading this article, all you decide to comment on is his choice of examples? I am pretty sure everything in this posting has been completely lost on you and its no wonder considering your name and affiliation.

      You have my vote Ripard.

      January 30, 2013 at 11:10 pm Reply
  4. iskbot#1337

    its a pain in my ass to say this .. but i have to agree with you.
    i hope you get the chance to make it better than the current CSM.

    January 30, 2013 at 1:56 pm Reply
  5. Swift

    Very good post. The game changed for me dramatically when they added PLEX to the game. I have a good job and now I do not need to grind out isk in the game. It's more efficient to just buy a PLEX every now and again. Why grind out isk for 20 hours when I can just buy it? I don't pvp much, so I don't have a lot of expenses beyond my addiction to buying and fitting ships. So I find I'm no longer motivated to run missions or any other ISK generating activities. I've been active for 6 years, and have run a mid-size corp, lived in wormholes, lived in null-sec, fought in faction war, run incursions, etc. So its not like I don't know what to do in Eve. I dabble in all of these aspects now and then, but I don't get immersed like I used to.

    I've instead taken to mentoring new players, which I find very engaging and fulfilling in Eve. After I explain skills, tanking.turret mechanics, and fitting their ships there always comes that final question, "What now?" Even with 107 million SP, I find myself now wondering the same thing. I love the game, but what does it say when you can do anything, fly any ship, fit any module, and you just don't want to play the game? Seems to me that something needs to change.

    Considering the level of insight in this post, you can count on my vote too.

    January 30, 2013 at 2:05 pm Reply
    1. Johann

      I hope you still do other things that EVE. Otherwise you'll be adding insulin shots to your monthly budget.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:47 pm Reply
  6. ENSUCKS

    I don't like all your articles but shit has to change and you're right. You got my vote.

    January 30, 2013 at 2:12 pm Reply
  7. nullseclord

    TL:DR Niggers are black.

    You'll never get the votes, the null sec population will vote for whoever they're told to vote for.

    The null sec lords like it how it is now. They like the blue, they like the RMT operations with CCP devs in control.

    EVE will remain this way, and CCP adding more of these players to their ranks as employees is proof of this.

    January 30, 2013 at 2:28 pm Reply
    1. yawn

      TL are pretty cool guys. Why are you calling them niggers while being happy about it? Racism everywhere.

      January 31, 2013 at 12:19 pm Reply
    2. Your Stepdad

      TL DR: I'm a lame, little d**k, two-pump chump, white guy who has nothing else to do but spew racism over the internet because my mommy ran off with a black man.

      Go kill yourself.

      That is all for now.

      February 1, 2013 at 8:26 pm Reply
  8. tldr

    Nobody who writes this much about spaceships has my vote. You need to be more concise.

    January 30, 2013 at 2:38 pm Reply
  9. kevin___

    No.

    I think that's long enough to summarize my thoughts.

    Also, Jester, you are a terrible person and my in game interactions with you have convinced me of that to the fullest. I really hope you will NOT get into CSM, ever. You don't represent anyone, actually can't represent anyone, but yourself and you don't really care about the game (as you have said in private).

    January 30, 2013 at 2:40 pm Reply
    1. Guest

      I would expect such accusations from a known pedophile.

      January 30, 2013 at 3:18 pm Reply
      1. GuestWho

        Stop getting to know pedophiles.

        January 30, 2013 at 8:59 pm Reply
    2. BntyHunter

      You don't represent anyone, actually can't represent anyone, but yourself and you don't really care about the game (as you have said in private).

      Hell hath no fury like a…Wait a minute :0

      January 30, 2013 at 9:08 pm Reply
  10. Goforit

    YEAH!!! another anti CFC candidate!!!

    January 30, 2013 at 2:56 pm Reply
    1. sin

      Before CFC was NC and before NC was BOB. So who is the next arch enemyof eve?

      January 30, 2013 at 5:29 pm Reply
      1. whatever

        PL

        January 31, 2013 at 8:44 am Reply
  11. Squinty McBlindy

    Eve is piss-boring right now because the game favours huge alliances and far too many people are making far too much real life cash (don't even try to deny it) for things to change unless there is a fundamental review of nullsec and alliances in general.

    January 30, 2013 at 3:05 pm Reply
    1. SuperPvp

      I've heard rumours over the years of shadoo being one of the biggest beneficiaries of RMT $$ in game. Anyone know if there's any truth to this, or is all just bullshit?

      I mean many of the regular visistors to Iceland in the past were making a nice RL wage from the game, ie. Vuk Lau and the drunken-gaffe-at-fanfest prone american retired lawyer……

      January 31, 2013 at 12:48 am Reply
  12. qwer

    Well, as Jester usually only has either stupid ideas or ability to question brilliant ideas, the CSM8 will be probably the most useless CSM so far if he gets elected.

    January 30, 2013 at 3:19 pm Reply
  13. Hi-sec Griefer

    You had me at fractals! I have never commented Evenews before, but have read all of the articles over the last few years. This is EXACTLY what we need. Thank god for sense. It has finally arrived to New Eden. +1 to Seagull and +1 to Jester and +1 to all those that can see the wood from the trees…

    January 30, 2013 at 3:53 pm Reply
    1. I just do not know

      I agree, I play in Null, HS and LS, I have been in big alliances and also like doing my own stuff. I so much want to get into one of these under-used 0.0 systems and use the space with our corp / small alliance but do not have the way to do it at this point, we so much want the new POS system to enable us to setup a base in which we can do this so we can operate. What choices now, go to NPC 0.0 which is the play aarea of big alliances, you cannot put up a POS in 0.0 Sov as its reported and they will find it and blow it up, so you just cannot have anyway to do it, no way to re-fit, no way to get ammo, no way to rep or store your stuff. Before the nerf to deep safes you could hide a Orca out there, but now….

      January 30, 2013 at 4:24 pm Reply
  14. Tombomb13

    You have mine aswell. People saying you are wrong, or it's too long..at least he's taking the time to fully explain. None of this, CCP null is bad because is bad.

    January 30, 2013 at 4:07 pm Reply
  15. Space troll

    Confirming yet again this article reeks of AIDS and shit

    January 30, 2013 at 5:26 pm Reply
  16. Casirio

    Go to wormholes were small-medium size groups can carve out their own space and where you can make a big name for yourself in our small community by bringing fights. Our alliance consists mostly of smaller European countries. Many top wormhole alliances are European. I'm an American and we do have a solid US TZ too. TLDR there is still a place in Eve where if you work for what you want, there is no limit at to what you can do.

    January 30, 2013 at 5:37 pm Reply
  17. Politics Suck

    Well written thought out article. Valid points that I tend to agree with.

    I will say that my eve career was advanced by EvE players themselves. I was mining in .5 space, and the guy I sold all my ore and minerals to eventually invited me into his null-sec mining operation. The CEO eventually, somehow, got us kicked out of the alliance we were in and the entire corp was absorbed by an enemy null sec PVP corp in a different alliance. From there, they pressured us to stop doing industrial crap, and train up to participate in CTAs. That was a year ago… and man has it been one hell of a fun year!!

    My point is that to enjoy this game, you have to exist in the game, and give time for opportunities to find you and find opportunities for yourself. Even if you have no idea what you want to do, if you are active enough, things to do will find you, and its what I love about this game.

    Its been a year and a half I've been playing and I still feel like there is a tremendous amount that I still have to learn in this game. Like life, it is what you make out of it!

    January 30, 2013 at 6:05 pm Reply
    1. wakko151

      Its my life. Ib game and out of game. Keep adding more sand and stop worrying about the shape of the box. Its up. To people to figure out what to do on there own and not be led by the hand the whole way. That is what makes eve so great.

      January 30, 2013 at 6:41 pm Reply
  18. BlackIron

    Your lack of knowledge of politics both in Eve and in the real world astounds me. In game just as in the real sorld there are alliances of powers treaties and smaller groups have to break in. Just as you feel that players should be able to become alliance leaders of large blocks easily, I feel they should not. You are not realizing that null sec is not the entire universe. A small group can start in high sec merge with a few other groups and move to low sec. Then after proving themselves competent and finding other corps can start an alliance, which over time can grow into a viable option to become part of the null sec politics on a small scale as a part of a larger coalition.
    You feel entitled to skip the hard work and years of planning and working that the other groups have put into their places in the Eve world. Just as in the real world you can not just take over an unused part of the US or Russia. If in time you grow to be a valuable alliance with political ties you might be able to carve yourself out a spot in the existing landscape of null.
    Anyone can learn to FC well and if given the proper opportunity become an alliance level FC. Though when commanding hundred billion isk fleets it is assumed you will have the experience that comes with age in game.
    Stop with your entitled posting and realize that everyone who is in Eve becomes more important through hard work and lucky circumstance not through entitled whining. Just like in the real world that you love to draw connections between. You can not just have a place in null sec just because you would like it, you have to fight for every scrap that is given to you in Eve and in life and just maybe the stars will align and you will find yourself a leader and master of men and space.

    January 30, 2013 at 6:26 pm Reply
    1. huh

      Okay, there's one part that really irks me about what your saying

      "Just as you feel that players should be able to become alliance leaders of large blocks easily"

      Where did you get this? He said nothing of the sort. In fact, quite the opposite, what he said was that there should more opportunities for SMALLER niche groups.

      January 30, 2013 at 6:37 pm Reply
      1. BlackIron

        There are tons of small niche groups all over Eve, hundreds of corps and alliances. Those alliances and corps are the 90% of the game that we never hear about because they are not part of null politics… They are alive and well, but don't get to hold space in null. Why should they?

        January 30, 2013 at 6:45 pm Reply
        1. .I.

          because they want to and cant because of the giant coalitions

          January 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm Reply
          1. BlackIron

            Child: Daaaddy.. The big kids wont let me play in their sandbox.
            Father: Son, that sandbox is for the big kids… You have your own sandbox where the big kids dont go.
            Child: but noo thats not the same, tell the big kids they have to let me play with them and cant bother me.

            See any connections??

            January 30, 2013 at 7:56 pm
          2. I just do not know

            First of all the sandbox which is all of Eve is not split null, LS and HS no matter what you seem to think, the simple fact is that some mechanisms make it impossible to operate in certain parts of the sandbox. After my corp had left IRC we had a CFC contact us and ask if we wanted to operate in NPC 0.0 near then as long as we did not do AFK cloakies and stayion games and they would perhaps allow us to use some low level ISK to fund our ships. So what if instead I had that new POS system and they could have plenty of PvP against small entities on their own doorstep who were sneaking in and using those small systems. Why would they not want that, well it would make small entities viable and they do not want that…

            January 30, 2013 at 8:18 pm
          3. Derp

            Funny that, you seem to be afraid that the entrenched sandbox might be invaded, though the child analogy is a nice (albeit, amusingly, an immature one) way to hide that.

            Let me spell things out.

            You are confusing equality of outcome, with equality of opportunity.

            Currently there is little in the way of equality of opportunity out there unless you want to roll a shit load of dice and grind in one of the mega-alliances for a few years.

            Very few people are saying "YEAH LETS GIVE EVERYONE A NULLSEC POCKET!"

            What is being called for is to have more OPPORTUNITIES for smaller alliances and corps to carve out a chunk.

            Thats it.

            No ones calling for disbanding anything. If you/your alliance are threatened by this, well, thats eve. Figure out how to fight and hold. If you've spent years working on the position, then seems to follow that you wouldn't mind sweating a little more to hold on to it.

            January 30, 2013 at 10:58 pm
    2. nowinnershere

      Way to completely miss the point. Return to your rush radio show and never comment again kthxbye

      January 30, 2013 at 7:14 pm Reply
    3. The Internet

      Dear BlackIron,

      EvE is a game, it is meant to be fun. Nullsec is not fun. No one in power wants to make Nullsec fun. This sucks.

      Sincerely,

      The Internet

      January 30, 2013 at 7:34 pm Reply
      1. fdsafdsaf

        obviously you never play eve online. Eve online is more than a game, its your double life.

        January 30, 2013 at 8:35 pm Reply
    4. BntyHunter

      Anyone can learn to FC well and if given the proper opportunity become an alliance level FC. Though when commanding hundred billion isk fleets it is assumed you will have the experience that comes with age in game.

      Like DBRB.

      No everyone can`t learn and apply how to be a "Alliance level FC" thats ridiculous…When you hand out Fc badges on a whim, thats when you get DBRB`s ilk.

      Can I take a leap and say you are a CFC member?

      January 30, 2013 at 9:17 pm Reply
      1. BlackIron

        Lol, nope I'm in the same alliance as you. I guess it does seem as though I meant it was sim

        January 30, 2013 at 9:28 pm Reply
        1. BlackIron

          Ple, but I actually meant that given the drive, willingness to learn, dedication, and skill that there are opportunities for new alliance level FCs all over Eve…

          January 30, 2013 at 9:29 pm Reply
  19. gimli

    and my axe!

    January 30, 2013 at 7:01 pm Reply
  20. srsly man

    srsly how old is this jester guy, what video game bubble does he live in. sometimes he is just soo off base, specially when he starts comparing it to his apparently limited knowledge of the real world.

    there are plenty of smaller null sec underdog alliances that would welcome more pilots that have the balls to come out here and not whine for a month and move back. especially those who would step up to be fcs, and hopefully become good ones…if more people wanted to go out to null they would. It's just noone wants to join the underdogs, they all want to be an instant Goon or TEST hero. Also the analogy to the current world is short sighted and completely off, eve is not ruled by any kind of sense of right or wrong or moral values when it comes to war, there is no international pressure not to attack your neighbor, if anything it's the opposite, the world is more like eve in that the biggest most powerful entities ARE empires and DO own most of the world, parcelling little bits out to their favorites, (insert favorite industrial complex or oligarch here), they are just pretending to spread democracy (or whatever) while sabotaging it with coups and supporting despots and deathsquads whenever the popular rulers don't agree to play their game. the control is not even military anymore, though the US does have basess spread ALL over the fucking world, but monetary.

    January 30, 2013 at 7:50 pm Reply
  21. srsly man

    oh, and don't forget option 3: grow a pair, let em drop, and join one of the underdog 0.0 alliances that would be happy to have You as long as You're willing to do the hard work of keeping space when attacked stead of just bitching and running because everything's not roses and handed to You.

    January 30, 2013 at 7:57 pm Reply
  22. Just Bob

    Part of the reason there are difficulties getting into places is because you HAVE to be trusted.
    You just cant let FCs walk in off the street and expect them to be good, expect them not to fuck you ectectect.

    Its set up this way to protect the players and alliances and coalitions which are currently established.

    January 30, 2013 at 8:40 pm Reply
  23. Johann

    Ripard is just one of those guys who likes to hear himself talk. Getting him on the CSM will be completely counterproductive. The rest of the members will pull out their hair as he constantly bogs down conversations in bullshit. Paralysis by analysis. (And bad analysis at that).

    ""Mr. Teg, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!"

    January 30, 2013 at 9:04 pm Reply
  24. BntyHunter

    A major problem in Eve and why this is so as well is cost of starting up.

    In RL if you have a band of 200 warriors in the Sudan you can take over a few valleys and own it hand and fist. but in Eve just to take a system you need how much ISK in SBU`s?

    I to think small groups should be able to take places. This is why I have always been for true leveled systems. We already "Rate systems" we just dont officially change anything but Ore/Rat Types etc.

    So for 00 Sec a Lvl 1 would have x number of belts with x number of Ore with x number of WH`s/Anoms etc.

    This also needs to regulate the amount of players the system holds. People may not like that at first but just like RL has places that are very easy to fortify with super narrow passes etc so should Eve.

    Places like Lxq already have massive battles and in major war Systems that are key already get most numbers so its already doing half the work, but if we somehow limited certain ship types in the lowest systems+lowering numbers similiar to WH`s smaller groups could thrive and give a real threat to larger ones.

    Also I have read great ideas about SOV not being what it is but also could be taken by doing multiple raids on the TCU or SOV not being 100% unless all planets were taken etc.

    All I know is the current Sov mechanic is boring and does not need skill or thought as much as numbers, we need to rethink it, If I look back and take Mittens, Molle, Atlas and other infamous players most would simply not be famous today, they would most likely get snuffed out before they started…Eve is no longer a mix of who you know and what you know, it is simply who and how many you know…We need to change this drastically, we do need to mimic RL more.

    I really want to find a solid answer for this problem as I know mine isnt the best one.

    January 30, 2013 at 9:06 pm Reply
  25. Barbra Streisand

    jester has my vote

    January 30, 2013 at 9:58 pm Reply
  26. Andres Talas

    One thing I love and hate about EvE is the PhD in cynicism just about everyone has.

    Jesters Trek of Rote Kapelle is criticising the 'Blue Up to Fight or Die' of nullsec.

    That would be *this* Rote Kapelle

    "Sure, Rote is in it to attempt to force out the players in Syndicate who don't or won't fight us, or if they do fight, require that they get every advantage, more numbers, more logi, we jump into them, etc etc. "
    http://eveopportunist.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/syn

    January 30, 2013 at 10:04 pm Reply
  27. Andres Talas

    Oh, if you want to stop being clueless, you might want to talk to the residents of 6NJ in Venal – 401k.

    They are regularly running small gangs into and out of Branch, roaming, hotdropping and generally having fun.

    But the fact is that small gang PvP is just another phrase for killing time. While the economic foundations of alliances are in hisec and structures, small gang PvP and roams is something you do to keep the troops busy between structure shoots and cloaky camping.

    January 30, 2013 at 10:12 pm Reply
    1. SuperPvp

      lol don't go near LAWN space, they just all dock up, then whine about neutrals presence on local disrupting their 'right to run sanctums' unimpeeded, followed by lots of goon-style shitpoasting on local. An exercise in frustration.

      January 31, 2013 at 12:40 am Reply
  28. SHADOORP

    "Try to fly solo under the radar and let this game try to almost literally strangle you in your crib." been in this position for three years lol

    January 31, 2013 at 12:44 am Reply
  29. SHADOORP

    usually in syndicate, but you'll still get my vote.

    January 31, 2013 at 12:44 am Reply
  30. EVE_Dude

    "Ever seen the EVE Chinese server Serenity’s sov map? It has seven colors on it. We’re getting there."

    If we had a way to represent coalitions on the influence map, we'd already have fewer than 7. Ya know, just so we don't twist our arms out patting ourselves on the back

    January 31, 2013 at 3:48 am Reply
  31. guest

    In that CSM minutes with Seagull was also the discussion about about making different space more viable. Go ahead and make more variations in "value" of space, and then make financial disincentives to just holding huge blocks of space for sake of holding it. Make it exponentially more expensive the more space you hold- that will scale back the huge land grabs and make a lot more (less valuable space) available for smaller groups.

    I'm personally in favor of making alliance maintenance more expensive as well- that won't STOP huge mindless blobs, just make them not financially efficient.

    January 31, 2013 at 5:00 am Reply
  32. Kyon

    Man, u've disappointed me. What u r saying about atom is absolutely not true. It's not like our solar system, Ernest Rutherford supposed it to be so, but quantum phisics says it's much more complicated.

    January 31, 2013 at 5:51 am Reply
  33. Shippy

    just like in the real world, only the smart people with vision, managament skills/attitude end up on top. Working as intended

    January 31, 2013 at 10:25 am Reply
  34. strure

    Seems he hasn't considered WH space. The state of null explains why WH became inhabited to a far greater degree and faster than CVP expected. It serves a useful stepping stone/alternative for corps/individuals

    January 31, 2013 at 5:42 pm Reply
  35. I just do not know

    Simple thing is that there is no need to police there space as they can lock it down at the borders, the new POS system if implemented with the ability to be put anywhere, a stealth mode and the ability to jump out would enable people to setup shop in under used Sov systems and use them. This would force large coalitions to actually police their sov instead of covering the entry points, blow up any current POS type put down, nice mail that as well as limited locations to put them, which of course makes doing anything impossible as logistics kill you. Its a bottem up change like this that will improve Eve, people should not listen to the large Coalition leaders, they like it as it is and will fight to keep it as it is, which in the end will be the end of Eve…

    February 1, 2013 at 4:28 pm Reply
  36. Nim

    I'm a total lurker, carebear, with two accounts – 4 years into Eve. I see no fun reason to blow up my ships. I could easily afford to lose a few hundred million a week. And I would, in a heartbeat, if it looked fun.

    Faction warfare looks a little interesting…..but why exactly are they fighting again? What do the players get out of it?

    Jester is right on track with his observations. I'm pretty sure null sucks. No need to go there and prove it to myself.

    Building on what exists, I suggest taking faction warfare to null. An asymmetric war, where small fleet FW operations can severely damage null sec financial operations – for rewards of various flavors. And null sec power blocks have incentives – beyond just defending their stuff – to interfere in low sec.

    February 1, 2013 at 9:46 pm Reply
    1. Wtf?

      Wtf am I reading…

      February 2, 2013 at 12:17 am Reply
  37. Nim

    I'm a total lurker, carebear, with two accounts – 4 years into Eve. I see no fun reason to blow up my ships. I could easily afford to lose a few hundred million a week. And I would, in a heartbeat, if it looked fun.

    February 1, 2013 at 10:58 pm Reply

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