Comments

riverini’s Note: Ok, before you scroll down and cry “Burn the Witch!” in the comments (as it was my reaction upon reading this) the more I re-read the proposed idea, the more I sort of like it.

Long before I had ever gotten into Eve Online, my cup of tea was composed of night skies filled with LRMs, the shudder inducing ER PPC and the thundering roar of LBX 20s. I was a Mech junkie. Starting with mech3 and quickly graduating to Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries NBT league, I loved the Battletech Universe and even now as I look back on it, there is a sigh of nostalgia. I liked the concept of custom fits, variations, the use of tactics and strategy, and most of all I liked the concept of fighting against a bigger force and using my mind to win, something that’s carried over into EvE and holds as a genetic disposition to anyone Northwestward of the Porte.

I also loved the concept of “The Clans”, The Star League in Exile, Kerensky’s Children, etc. For those of you that currently play MWO, you may have an idea of what these phrases mean while for many others, I will need to explain. The Battletech Universe was composed of several great factions, a bit like EvE’s Universe, but instead of just 4 major powers, there were 5 that made “The Inner Sphere” as well as the “periphial states” (Battletech lowsec.) For a time they were all united under the Star League. The Star League Defense Force (SLDF) kept the peace, a sort of UN with giant robots and teeth to actually enforce something. Due to politics, all this fell apart and Aleksandr Kerensky took his SLDF and left the known space on a major exodus.

Unfortunately, the old divisions that plagued the Inner Sphere, also caused problems for the self exiled SLDF. With their spirits down, there was a major mutiny which Kerensky had to put down. Many of the rebels settled in a cluster of five planets known as the Pentagon Worlds while 800 of the SLDF loyal to Aleksandr and his son Nicholas, left for another larger cluster of systems. After Aleksandr’s death, his son Nicholas formed “The Clans.” A society where personal merit and martial prowess were the basis of your worth. The Warrior was at the top of the society while Scientists, Technicians, Merchants and Laborers followed. Eventually the Clans defeated the rebels and absorbed them into this new society.

Now what the hell am I going on about anyway? I wanted to give an insight into the mentality of Clan law and how it can be used to help your slob lazy NAP fest of a coalition from suffocating under its own fat. The Clans spent centuries away from any and all actual enemies. The Clans were all on the same side, yet at the same time, when they invaded the Inner Sphere, pound for pound, man for man, the Clans were the deadliest thing on the battlefield anyone had seen. Now how did they manage this? Aside from eugenics and superior technology, the Clans fought one another. In the Eve universe, this would translate into corporations of the same alliance or alliances of the same coalition, fighting one another.

“Wait a second Seraph, that’s idiotic. Why would you espouse full out civil war within your own coalition? Doesn’t that leave room for your enemies to attack you?” Is what someone ignorant of Clan law may say. The Clans didn’t simply attack with everything. They fought through the Trial system. Within the Clans you have several forms of Trials such as a Trial of Absorption or Trial of Grievance. For our purposes we will look at the “Trial of Possession.”

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Possession

Now how does that translate into EvE terms. We’ll use the CFC as an example since most are familiar with them at least in name. Now remember, the point of the Trial of Possession (ToP) is to minimize losses while still providing actual fights for your coalition. Say for example GENTS just got a nice new techmoon in Tribute and FA would like to acquire those assets. FA would call for a Trial of Possession for the moon. GENTS would state their defending forces (ex: We bid 40 Battle Cruisers and 10 logistics) and also if the defending forces are victorious, they gain an FA Titan. Now within FA you could have different FCs to bid their attacking forces. FC A bids 35 BCs and 8 Logis, while FC B bids 25 BCs, 5 Logis and 10 Frigates. FC B wins the right to attack GENTS. The two sides agree on a date and time and there you go.

Losses are kept to a minimum and there is competition to be part of the trial itself. People will strive to be better at the game itself in order to get into the fights. And this is all done while maintaining the integrity of your coalition, while also keeping your own pilots sharpened for combat. No more aimless roaming 50 jumps. You also have a sense of accomplishment and gain while “keeping it all in the family.” A techmoon for GENTS or FA still enriches the CFC as a whole. Everything is localized, innovation and tactics are more often revolutionized and most importantly, your pilots are having fun without the obligation of a mind numbing CTA sitting on a titan for 2 hours. It also encourages smaller gang PvP where the individual himself makes a difference. The pilot’s own personal input goes beyond “approach FC, target primary, hit F1.” If there is a worry that “There are too many people to have such small battles” have several of these smaller battles and whoever wins best out of 5 takes the resource under trial.

The system is not without its faults but it should alleviate some of the issues some of the major coalitions run into. At the very least take it as food for thought. Personally if I have to choose between a boring NAP fest and this, I’d go with this.

– Seraph IX Basarab

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73 Comments

  1. anomaly

    If you don't wanna play SOV war, don't play SOV war.
    If you wanna make profit via SOV, you have to play the SOV war.
    SOV war sucks ass, just like the rest of the EVE (mining, gate camping, ratting, scanning), and you coulda lost everything in space(sometimes, even a whole station)
    You can hold your own AT( arena),you wanna claim your precious moongoo via arena? Not likely.

    January 2, 2013 at 7:32 pm Reply
    1. alasker

      you beautifully missed the whole point of the article

      January 2, 2013 at 7:40 pm Reply
      1. anomaly

        looks too many of us "missed the whole point", wanna enlighten us? <3

        January 2, 2013 at 9:20 pm Reply
        1. Kiyohime Ronuken

          Nah – I for one prefer it this way.

          January 3, 2013 at 2:15 pm Reply
  2. former eve player

    EVE is broken and the fact you would write this article proves that.

    Not to say I hated the article, just saying.

    January 2, 2013 at 7:49 pm Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      I don't think its broken. I think the sov mechanics are kind of sucky but just because the strong in number strive to stay strong in number, doesn't mean the game is broken. It means the game allows us to express our humanity. That's what people would often do. The strong will always try to stay on top and maintain their power. But no empire lasts forever. All the major coalitions you see now, will fall.

      January 2, 2013 at 8:09 pm Reply
      1. The Observer

        let me toss a question your way. What's to stop a larger force from just surprise dropping a extra 200 people on these little trial battles? Nothing. Yeah, sure people might get mad at them, but so what? Who's the better ally: the 1200 member alliance or the 5000 member alliance?

        January 2, 2013 at 8:51 pm Reply
        1. Seraph IX Basarab

          If it's a force from within the coalition, some basic punishment would solve the issue. If it's an outside force….Well you have to be better about organizing the fights. Not saying it's perfect, but it's an idea. It's a good way to keep your own guys sharp without really losing anything to an external group. Of course there are some adaptations to be made, just as the Clans found out once they invaded the Inner Sphere.

          January 2, 2013 at 8:57 pm Reply
        2. eve pilot

          depends on the alliance if 1200 battle hardened pvp'rs vs 5000 mostly mde up multiple accounts carbears then my money is on the 1200 man alliance take NC. as an example where the terrified the goons and CFC

          January 2, 2013 at 9:01 pm Reply
  3. lol

    Trading 1 shit sov system for another that still lets horrible players keep all of 0.0. great idea.

    January 2, 2013 at 7:50 pm Reply
  4. Bored at Work

    Good idea, however – the CFC seems to like chaos among is slave corps.alliances to allow for such Honor Based fights. Somebody would pop a cyno and drop a fleet in the middle of a battle with a fit of nerd rage.

    Though, the clan thing is interesting. I just kicked a guy out of the tabletop gorup for d&d in real life because he was a Goon. We have non-Goons in the group, and nobody trusts the Goon.

    January 2, 2013 at 7:56 pm Reply
    1. ...

      Wow, you take this game way to seriously.

      January 2, 2013 at 8:46 pm Reply
      1. Always laughahaha

        He plays d&d, taking eve seriously is the least of his worries.

        January 2, 2013 at 11:03 pm Reply
        1. CareBearStares

          lol becouse digital spaceships is so much superior?

          January 3, 2013 at 3:41 pm Reply
    2. lolwhat

      you must be a nice person to be around. did your mom at least drive the poor guy home after you threw him out of her basement?

      January 2, 2013 at 10:56 pm Reply
  5. Bored at Work

    …too much among its..

    January 2, 2013 at 7:58 pm Reply
  6. petwatch

    While the sov alliances may or may not be having a napfest the whole game shouldn't get some half arse clan battles system to give them something to do.

    January 2, 2013 at 8:06 pm Reply
  7. noselfrespect

    Riverini, one 'S' in Proposal.

    #willproofreadforisk

    January 2, 2013 at 8:08 pm Reply
    1. Uncle__Bob

      lol – nice comment! XD

      January 2, 2013 at 11:00 pm Reply
  8. Gumpin

    What about the deep seated core of eve?

    Scamming, betrayal, and lies.

    Honor fights between those that treat honor as exploitable. Good joke man. To many words till the punchline though.

    January 2, 2013 at 8:22 pm Reply
    1. Azule

      That is exactly right. The Clans were composed of true warriors with whom honor was not a party joke. You cannot have any type of interaction based on the belief that the opposing party will honor their obligations because most won't. The used of the CFC as an example only underlines this point.

      January 3, 2013 at 12:08 am Reply
      1. Seraph IX Basarab

        Within a coalition, why wouldn't this be possible? There are consequences for screwing over "bros."

        January 3, 2013 at 1:31 am Reply
      2. Shattershark

        "The Clans were composed of true warriors with whom honor was not a party joke."
        I take it you didn't read "The Wars of Reaving" :)

        January 3, 2013 at 3:05 pm Reply
  9. Kiyohime Ronuken

    Small scale combat the deciding factor? Then who gets rich? If no one gets to be rich off the warriors, it won't fly in EVE.

    January 2, 2013 at 8:23 pm Reply
  10. Lurker

    Done this as a corp before. More just to spawn competition between one another and to just have fun. Wasn't so much a right to take something, but it is a way to also help newer guys on fitting out ships and working on tactics.

    January 2, 2013 at 8:41 pm Reply
  11. The Observer

    Yeah, cuz this worked out so well with the southern coalition…

    January 2, 2013 at 8:45 pm Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      SoCo have never done this.

      January 3, 2013 at 12:32 am Reply
  12. Smiling Joe

    Our corporation does something on the same level to stay sharp, we just simply do it on the test servers. Yes, the loss of isk is meaningless there and the argument can be made people won't give it a true go, but competitive spirit tends to shine thruogh

    January 2, 2013 at 9:18 pm Reply
  13. Just Bob

    please go away.

    January 2, 2013 at 10:23 pm Reply
    1. GUEST!

      A very eloquent and well thought-out rebuttal. Please share more of your fascinating insight.

      January 3, 2013 at 2:38 pm Reply
  14. if u think of it

    nice idea nice article.

    January 2, 2013 at 11:01 pm Reply
  15. Uncle__Bob

    Goons will never go for it as the rest of the CFC do their dirty work for them while they sit in stations collecting their Tech.

    January 2, 2013 at 11:01 pm Reply
  16. MisterNick

    The error is in assuming people will actually do what they promise to.

    January 3, 2013 at 12:16 am Reply
  17. badoldvet

    You have all noticed how everyone tries to invent ways to bypass sov mechanics – from buying out alliances, spies, this.

    Just shows how truly bad they are when people hate a part of a game, it is seen as pure grind.

    January 3, 2013 at 12:23 am Reply
  18. Mech Box

    Trail of Grievance. Justice via Combat. :)

    January 3, 2013 at 12:53 am Reply
  19. BPr

    destroy hegemony – nurturing it means justifying it

    January 3, 2013 at 1:33 am Reply
  20. iskbot#1337

    Burn the Witch!

    January 3, 2013 at 2:17 am Reply
  21. Omen Nihilo

    No.

    January 3, 2013 at 2:24 am Reply
  22. Mattias Kerensky

    I have wanted to start a clan philosophy corp since I joined the game. Nice to know that I am not alone with those thoughts.

    January 3, 2013 at 3:36 am Reply
  23. yeah sov is totally broken but this is a good…ish solution to the problem of pilots getting board. I think it would be fun to have players bet on the fight instead. I am ok with trading titans and stuff, sounds like fun

    January 3, 2013 at 3:40 am Reply
    1. Treston_Cal

      Form a NIP. Someone breaks it, rub their nose in it. I think the solution is pretty similar.

      January 3, 2013 at 5:38 am Reply
  24. Shattershark

    "Aside from eugenics and superior technology, the Clans fought one another."
    Also Clans are fictional society that works on fiat. One thing about them was quite realistic – it's a bad idea to bring blitzkrieg tactics into battle of attrition.

    January 3, 2013 at 4:15 am Reply
  25. Objectivist

    Why are you trying to model game play in EVE into a Hollywood movie plot? EVE excels at taking human behavior down to its basic level – survival of the fittest in a winner take all environment. Those willing to gamble, take risks, and leave their morals at the login screen are the ones that will eventually reap the rewards of the EVE Universe.

    Your plan sounds like one of "Wealth Redistribution" – I have that in rl, I don't need it in my escape

    January 3, 2013 at 5:20 am Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      No…was a suggesting for coalitions to keep their own guys happy with friendly internal pvp without having to roam 60 jumps to see any non blue. Not sure how you got that conclusion.

      January 3, 2013 at 5:54 am Reply
  26. qwer

    "The Clans were all on the same side, yet at the same time, when they invaded the Inner Sphere, pound for pound, man for man, the Clans were the deadliest thing on the battlefield anyone had seen. Now how did they manage this? Aside from eugenics and superior technology, the Clans fought one another. In the Eve universe, this would translate into corporations of the same alliance or alliances of the same coalition, fighting one another."

    The moment you are using fictional story as your main point to prove that something works, is the point you should stop posting/blogging.

    January 3, 2013 at 6:01 am Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      Using a fictional story to do things is totally not what Eve Online does…right? Oh wait.

      January 3, 2013 at 6:16 am Reply
      1. BobFromMarketing

        Except players in 0.0 dont follow any fictional story for their actions. They couldnt care less about what the various high sec empires do. They war for their own gain.

        January 3, 2013 at 6:21 am Reply
        1. Guy

          Well most 0.0 players just go along with whatever content their leadership is giving them, but sure.

          January 3, 2013 at 6:34 am Reply
          1. BobFromMarketing

            In game lore and "let's attack x alliance" are not the same. One is dictated by the players, the other by the game developers. Only one manages 0.0 players actions.

            January 3, 2013 at 8:09 am
          2. Guy

            Let's face it a lot of 0.0 leaderships present some kind of story to motivate their players to login, such as 'defeating the elite pvp'ers' or getting rid of a- because they are old and elitist and the HBC is the future and a wonderful community that's friendly to all comers. Those are usually the kinds of stories that people enjoy instead of trying to roleplay being a French vexor pilot.

            I've done that stuff in 0.0 and if you don't present players with spoon-fed content, preferably with a narrative of some sort behind it, then most of them just drift around aimlessly.

            January 3, 2013 at 8:33 am
          3. dude

            If you think of it though…. that''s the player generated content that EVE is so famous for.

            Is it not? And leaders "spoon feeding" their cohort…. aren't they just being leaders? :)

            January 3, 2013 at 12:31 pm
          4. Guy

            Yeah that's what makes it interesting.

            As far as the leadership thing goes it's a little frustrating to me personally. A fairly big majority of players in most alliances will do nothing without explicit direction from above, which is strange for a game that's all about doing whatever you like. I don't just mean that they don't argue about an alliance's direction. A lot of people, without someone to tell them what to do, will act completely helplessly at the sight of 2 hostile cruisers in a system. So you end up in a situation where say the average CFC pilot is told what to fly, what to train, what to shoot, why they're shooting it and what they ought to be saying in local. If the alliance is run well a lot of the membership will also tend to identify unquestioningly with its 'culture'. So when I say 'spoon fed' I really mean it.

            Anyway I guess I'm kind bitter. On the upside I now can't stand it when a person starts a sentence with "someone should".

            January 3, 2013 at 1:02 pm
        2. Lumifragger

          0.0 is eve storyline

          January 3, 2013 at 12:20 pm Reply
  27. anyone

    Since when EVE is a E-Sport Game? i thought the game goal of EVE is about making as much isk as possible. My bad. If you wanna juicy small gang fights, how about fighting for the re-renewing of the almost rusted game-mechanics, limiting the max. amount of Systems hold by an alliance or reworking the tech-moon mechanic by limiting 1 Tech-moon per cluster of something like this.. gnah.. just sayin'..

    January 3, 2013 at 7:26 am Reply
  28. Habib

    I could see this being implemented within an alliance amongst blues but can never see this amongst reds.
    Even then, this would lead to much drama that alliance leaders would cheerfully avoid.
    Just you wait! Some corp will be upset at the results and then…

    January 3, 2013 at 8:05 am Reply
  29. LOL.

    If you use lore from some other franchise, at least get the story straight.

    The clans worked in there formed society, which was working for a common goal (the return to the inner sphere, and the rebuilding of the Star League), most of their rules are derived from two basic principles: darwinism (the survival / victory of the stronger), and, since they where low on resources a no-waste policy.

    A trial for posession for example is the perfect example, the trial itself is holding up to the darwinistic nature of the clans, while the bidding which is part of it is actually to save resources, to reduce waste. A bid is considered a good bid, if its the lowest possible amount being bid that can still win the trial. (For those who know the battletech lore, when Natasha Kerensky bid only one (freeborn) Warrior (Phelan) to take the Planet of Gunzburg, this was the most ideal bid in the history of the clans).

    Now what does that mean for what OP suggests? The ideal fight by that would burn down to 1vs1 trials over posessions – it would take out all greatness out of battles, instead of having had that huge battle over hours, a quick 1vs1 frigatte fight could decide over the ownership of a system.

    In a society that is as war focused, and as story focused as the clans in battletech are, this sooner or later leads to the same problem that the clans where facing: there are no honorable deeds to be done anymore, no way for a bloodnamed warrior to claim his place in the remembrance (a book that contains all hero-deeds by the clans). As a result the clans more and more split up, into the crusader clans (who wanted to go back to the inner sphere to rule that) and the wardens (who saw themselves as protectors of mankind), both interpreting the hidden hope doctrine in their ways to allow them glory.

    Why is that part important? Because this also brought the downfall of the Clans, the part of the story which explains why the clan system wont work for EVE either.

    Rules in a war, such as the clan doctrines, only work if both sides agree on those rules, and actually uphold them.

    The hidden hope doctrine sais:

    “Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another’s wealth. We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return, and return we shall, our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters.”

    When the clans returned, they where not that shiny beacon that people would align to, they where a war mongering monster on a crusade for glory, working under a ruleset that worked for them, but that others had no reason to follow. Comstar agreed to a proxy battle, a trial of posession over earth with the clans, and did only project the pretense of following the clan rules there. They falsified information on their bet against the clans, they fought in ways that where strange to the clans, throwing wave after wave after wave of warrior at the clans and bet them in a horrible war of attrition, the exact thing that the rules of the clans, who are comparably small where to prevent.

    After that battle, a clanner by the name of Trent, frustrated by the politics in his own clan, following that horrible defeat, turns over to comstar and gives them exodus road – they way to the homeworlds of the clans. The Inner Sphere, which has no reason to follow the same rules as the clans then embarks on an operation in which one clan, (smoke jaguar, Trents old clan) gets completely annihilated, no matter if bloodnamed, true warrior, freeborn, scientist, civilian, child. And then in a final battle, when the clans have their spirit broken already, the innerspheres combined troops stand on the homeworld of the clans, and defeat them in their own game.

    If an alliance, or a set of alliances would agree on following rules like the clans in battletech, they would put themselves under the train – either they have to give up on those rules at some point, or everyone who does not follow those rules has a HUGE advantage over them, a trial of posession? fine. you win, great you uphold the rules, they win? the prize big enough? fine, you kick their ass and keep the prize.

    The Clans in Battletech kind-of-worked when they where isolated, the moment they tangled with the inner sphere, not following the same rules they where doomed. In EVE you cant reach that isolation, not even temporary, and even if you would achieve it, how would you allow your pilots to get whats the great about EVE? to have their own stories? to be part of the remembrance that all the forums, blogs etc. arround EVE form?

    PS: its EVE not EvE

    January 3, 2013 at 9:59 am Reply
  30. LOL.

    The clans worked in there formed society, which was working for a common goal (the return to the inner sphere, and the rebuilding of the Star League), most of their rules are derived from two basic principles: darwinism (the survival / victory of the stronger), and, since they where low on resources a no-waste policy.

    A trial for posession for example is the perfect example, the trial itself is holding up to the darwinistic nature of the clans, while the bidding which is part of it is actually to save resources, to reduce waste. A bid is considered a good bid, if its the lowest possible amount being bid that can still win the trial. (For those who know the battletech lore, when Natasha Kerensky bid only one (freeborn) Warrior (Phelan) to take the Planet of Gunzburg, this was the most ideal bid in the history of the clans).

    Now what does that mean for what OP suggests? The ideal fight by that would burn down to 1vs1 trials over posessions – it would take out all greatness out of battles, instead of having had that huge battle over hours, a quick 1vs1 frigatte fight could decide over the ownership of a system.

    In a society that is as war focused, and as story focused as the clans in battletech are, this sooner or later leads to the same problem that the clans where facing: there are no honorable deeds to be done anymore, no way for a bloodnamed warrior to claim his place in the remembrance (a book that contains all hero-deeds by the clans). As a result the clans more and more split up, into the crusader clans (who wanted to go back to the inner sphere to rule that) and the wardens (who saw themselves as protectors of mankind), both interpreting the hidden hope doctrine in their ways to allow them glory.

    Why is that part important? Because this also brought the downfall of the Clans, the part of the story which explains why the clan system wont work for EVE either.

    Rules in a war, such as the clan doctrines, only work if both sides agree on those rules, and actually uphold them.

    The hidden hope doctrine sais:

    “Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another’s wealth. We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return, and return we shall, our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters.”

    When the clans returned, they where not that shiny beacon that people would align to, they where a war mongering monster on a crusade for glory, working under a ruleset that worked for them, but that others had no reason to follow. Comstar agreed to a proxy battle, a trial of posession over earth with the clans, and did only project the pretense of following the clan rules there. They falsified information on their bet against the clans, they fought in ways that where strange to the clans, throwing wave after wave after wave of warrior at the clans and bet them in a horrible war of attrition, the exact thing that the rules of the clans, who are comparably small where to prevent.

    After that battle, a clanner by the name of Trent, frustrated by the politics in his own clan, following that horrible defeat, turns over to comstar and gives them exodus road – they way to the homeworlds of the clans. The Inner Sphere, which has no reason to follow the same rules as the clans then embarks on an operation in which one clan, (smoke jaguar, Trents old clan) gets completely annihilated, no matter if bloodnamed, true warrior, freeborn, scientist, civilian, child. And then in a final battle, when the clans have their spirit broken already, the innerspheres combined troops stand on the homeworld of the clans, and defeat them in their own game.

    If an alliance, or a set of alliances would agree on following rules like the clans in battletech, they would put themselves under the train – either they have to give up on those rules at some point, or everyone who does not follow those rules has a HUGE advantage over them, a trial of posession? fine. you win, great you uphold the rules, they win? the prize big enough? fine, you kick their ass and keep the prize.

    The Clans in Battletech kind-of-worked when they where isolated, the moment they tangled with the inner sphere, not following the same rules they where doomed. In EVE you cant reach that isolation, not even temporary, and even if you would achieve it, how would you allow your pilots to get whats the great about EVE? to have their own stories? to be part of the remembrance that all the forums, blogs etc. arround EVE form?

    PS: its EVE not EvE

    January 3, 2013 at 10:15 am Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      Except that has nothing to do with this article at all literally in any sense. I'm speaking about coalitions that are too big and expansive for regular small scale pvp, to do it within a safe but fun form. I'm not saying that when the goons invade space now they call for batchall to the locals and everyone fires at 1 individual ship at a time or some other non sense. It's simply applying one basic and simple aspect of Clan law in order get fights out of it, not limit them. By all means outside of the coalition, there's no reason to apply these rules. Within the coalition it's a way to have safe fun sharpening pvp.

      PS: Yeah, it is EvE as well.

      January 3, 2013 at 9:17 pm Reply
      1. LOL.

        so you ignore the part of the story where this behaviour made the clans lose their true calling, where it started to split them etc?..

        January 4, 2013 at 9:45 am Reply
        1. Seraph IX Basarab

          No. I'm saying that's irrelevant as far as eve goes.

          January 4, 2013 at 8:30 pm Reply
  31. Noob McNoobson

    Nah. Clans fighting one another on the clan honour system was what actuall failed them once the IS figured out all the honour crap and started abusing it. By the end of the invasion the less braindead clans were straight out ignoring honour rules when fighting IS units. You have to remember that IS states also fought between themselves, in actual wars of annihilation, not silly wargames with idiotic arbitrary rules (full tabletob BT honour rules for clans pretty much reuce the gameplay down to a brainless slugfest with the one lucky on 2D6s winning).

    The rules were a product of the clan environment with scarce resources, designed to maintain some level of combat experience (that is, pretty much only twitch skills) without much collateral damage. They were a very poor way to train soldiers for an actual war.

    You could probably apply the batchall procedure for offensive operations on known timers. If you were fine with being burned down by an unexpected cyno unable to call much in the way of backup, even though there are over9000 free guns ready to jump in.

    January 3, 2013 at 11:21 am Reply
    1. Seraph IX Basarab

      But if both sides agree to it within a coalition, why not?

      BTW in CBT, sure the honor system screwed the clans in the IS invasion, but as individual warriors they were still better for it. That's what i'm addressing.

      January 3, 2013 at 2:50 pm Reply
      1. Noob McNoobson

        Well. First, the honour system takes away much fun. It might be better than nothing for a while, but not by much extent. If we apply the clan honour code to EVE realities we get something like this.

        1) Defending forces are known, so no need for scouting, no need for cynoing.
        2) Zellbrigen dictates duel system, so no logis and no focus fire. Buffer tank goes away, active tank rules. Which is exactly oppoite of "real" engagements and favours T3s, BSes and other ships that can chew through big local active tank while having one of their own. Though even if we get rid of zell entirely it being unEVElistic, we still are left with
        3) Warping off grid is prohibited, so dictors and inties are of no use. Also tactical ongrid warps are probably forbidden too since it's technically equal to breaking LoS.
        4) Not sure on keeping distance.

        All in all it's a very arbitrary set of rules that will significantly narrow the spectrum of ships, equipment and tactics used.

        And, more importantly, it will be a big mess within one grid without inters and dictors whatsover (since bidding inties and dictors will leave you at a disadvantage) and with ships not staying aligned (because since they are forbidden to warp out anyay, they would better put their mobility for some actual use), which is a covert cyno bombing run waiting to happen (given the place and the time of the engagement are very much known beforehand). Also all thoe juicy pods full of expensive implant sets.

        Also doing trials of posession over big things like titans and tech moons leads to unfortunate implications. Let's say a small ally/corp wants a big ally's/corp's expensive stuff and calls the trial. The big guys are in their right to be risk averse (this being EVE), bid their whole combat force on their preferred timezone which the small one can not physically counter. While in the opposite situation the big ally can match any defending forces put against them. So over time the smaller entities lose. You also have to keep in mind that the stated purpose of this system (common folk having fun) contradicts the very concept of clan warfare that is aimed to reduce military and collateral expenses by using the least amount of force possible. That is, you can't really give people their fun by underbidding and forcing those people to stay out of fights. If you don't get everyone out there, instead of a morale boost you may get an internal strife (Johny was there, but I was told to sit out! I Johny better than me?). This system may well bread jealousy.

        Oh, and on the subject of clan warriors. The subject calls for a method of ordering the set of warriors by their "goodness". A "better warrior" in BT translates into an average clan pilot having better piloting/gunnery modifiers (and a bunch of pulses with DHS, a tracking comp and an XL engine that does not go pooh on a dead side torso, duh). But not good piloting and gunnery alone a good soldier make. A warrior that is forbidden to retreat, forbidden to break LoS, forbidden to engage in melee, forbidden to work in a group is a very dead warrior. Epecially in a narrow city street. And a bad warrior is better than a dead warrior.

        January 3, 2013 at 4:06 pm Reply
        1. Seraph IX Basarab

          That's a lot of writing.

          But I was just referring to the process of having two sides within a coalition having a pre-arranged and controlled fleet fight over things. Not zellbrigen or anything else you wrote there. It's simply side A saying to side B "We want X, what are you defending with, we'll bring at most, that number." That's all.

          January 3, 2013 at 9:05 pm Reply
  32. FixCoalitions

    The problem is that game mechanics allows superblocks that do not need strategy. All they need is bunch of supers and huge fleets that can be moved all over universe in no time, at no cost. In most strategic games you must allocate troops in strategic points and the bigger your territory is, the more costly it becomes – moving troops costs a lot of resources, troops must be distributed wisely so that given patr of territory is not vulnerable. Taking more territory includes lots of thinking before you do it – if you will be able to cover the territory without bancrupcy… EVE is broken because large blocks need no strategic planning. All they need is one huge blob, that can be moved from Kalevala to Catch in matter of minutes. Also, 20+ high end anoms in good systems mean that players are in one place where they have outpost which makes defence easy – no need to call players from many systems for defence, everyone is already there.
    CCP needs to make large blobs vulnerably by their overgrowth – big cost for territory, huge cost for moving fleets at long distances etc. Players are incapable to sacrifice comfort for good fights. Nobody in CFC would be willing to bet tech moon to get a good fight.

    January 3, 2013 at 11:55 am Reply
    1. CulturalReasons

      I think:
      1) Moving supers should cost a hell lot of ISK, supers should have small fuel bay so they would need refuelling from freighters if the need to move more than 20 ly, jump range should be decreased, so that you need more cynos.
      2) Using titan bridge would generate timer not allowing ships to use gates or bridges for 15 minutes
      3) Number of good anoms would be limited to 4-6 per system, so that people would be forced to use more systems rather than flock in one that is really good. Benefit of high security systems would be in better spawns in the same kind of anomaly, so that it would generate more ISK, and higher chance of escalation. This would also pressure on player competition for resources, so that those who participate in fleets would only be allowed to farm -0.9 truesec systems. Now, dedicated players do not mind sharing space with lazy ones, because farming systems are rich and there is always lot fo stuff for anyone. That is bad.

      January 3, 2013 at 12:07 pm Reply
  33. Kharim Katelo

    This guys inside CFC are carebears, they are not worth of walking the way of true Clan Warrior. They could be no more than in Labourer caste.

    January 3, 2013 at 2:25 pm Reply
  34. Isee

    The problem is in building superblob coalitions. Having endless blue list and travelling to enemy 50+ jumps is negative impact.

    Solution is not some "clan warfare" or similar shit. Solution is splitting coalitions, resetting each other and going to full enemy/neutral mode. But CFC/HBC members do not have the balls for this.

    Occassional making out with a wonam does not make you non-gay, if you suck dicks every day. Stop being fag blueing everyone around in the name of universal friendship, go for serious warfare and then you will have no reason to complain for having no one to shoot.

    January 3, 2013 at 3:10 pm Reply
    1. Testie

      We just want to share ponys with everyone, CAN'T JU SEE THIS!!!!

      January 3, 2013 at 3:28 pm Reply
  35. HGAK47

    Mechwarrior is great!

    I love me some close to mid range DAKKA!!!!

    January 3, 2013 at 6:42 pm Reply
  36. greetings from curse

    i think a lot of you suck a lot of dicks.

    the best fight in eve is a 10 on 10 or 15 on 15. or even 12 on 30 given circumstances.

    i do this every day. it's amazing. the thrill of the even fight is unparalleled.

    this is a good idea.

    January 4, 2013 at 1:29 am Reply
  37. Selth

    Nice article seraph- a fellow VENGA pilot

    January 9, 2013 at 7:59 pm Reply
  38. Thanks so much for the blog article.Really thank you! Cool.

    November 1, 2019 at 1:11 pm Reply

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