Comments

Wormholes are considered the place where the money is. While trading is clearly bigger money, no one doubts that WHs have the highest primary income. I mean grindable one that “little guys” can get. A trader or a hauler alone earns nothing. He flips and moves items other people create. You can’t trade with tritanium without someone mining it. The miners make about 20M/hour/account. You can do better by running missions or rat, about 50-100M/hour. This is the primary income in known space.

In a WH by capital escalating sleepers you can do 2-300M/hour. Therefore WH people are the richest people in the galaxy. The average highsec resident is around 20-30M/hour, 1/10 of the WH income. No wonder they can afford to throw pimped capitals into battles regularly, things that the average nullsec-dweller might save for months. Or so it is believed.

Let’s check on the numbers shall we! We have these wonderful killboard that inform us about ships destroyed. Even better it has statistics. For example we can look up on Delve region and see that 162862 ships were destroyed with 9822175221274 (9.8T) ISK value at the moment I’m writing this. I don’t know what time period it refers to, neither I care, since I only want to compare regions. You probably did not know but wormhole systems are in regions too. So you can see that in W-space region 30
10063 kills happened with 2.9T value. What is W-space region 30? Dotlan helps telling us that this region has 113 systems, all class 6. This is the only region with class 6 systems by the way. So off I went and checked on every single nullsec and WH region and collected the data for kills, values, WH class and system count, then calculated the sums for the various types:

“Region”,”Class”,”Kills “,”ISK (b)”,”Systems”;
1,1,3656,293,133;
2,1,11456,828,153;
3,1,3916,317,62;
4,2,15669,1660,104;
5,2,15973,1663,102;
6,2,8196,776,141;
7,2,2124,270,50;
8,2,13362,1287,128;
9,3,3278,510,56;
10,3,3464,468,51;
11,3,5171,762,86;
12,3,13989,1769,105;
13,3,2561,383,43;
14,3,4693,651,96;
15,3,3991,549,58;
16,4,2936,401,60;
17,4,356,84,25;
18,4,1648,220,46;
19,4,2410,412,94;
20,4,1329,218,50;
21,4,5890,866,115;
22,4,1313,258,87;
23,4,1331,168,28;
24,5,7792,1577,91;
25,5,6432,1522,100;
26,5,2560,697,68;
27,5,8670,1394,71;
28,5,7417,1633,92;
29,5,5661,979,90;
30,6,10026,2884,113;
“Branch”,”Null”,36485,3465,94;
“Cache”,”Null”,7277,1004,44;
“Catch”,”Null”,126193,9230,108;
“Cloud ring”,”Null”,24582,1857,40;
“Cobalt edge”,”Null”,36340,3333,69;
“Curse”,”Null”,108477,6629,50;
“Deklein”,”Null”,33351,3066,68;
“Delve”,”Null”,162771,9814,97;
“Detorid”,”Null”,18508,1952,96;
“Esoteria”,”Null”,6941,1064,85;
“Etherium Reach”,”Null”,59622,5179,100;
“Fade”,”Null”,14281,1168,27;
“Feythabolis”,”Null”,10327,1516,89;
“Fountain”,”Null”,75273,5306,115;
“Geminate”,”Null”,81594,8006,84;
“Great Wildlands”,”Null”,59622,4095,101;
“Immensea”,”Null”,15386,1817,84;
“Impass”,”Null”,5608,758,51;
“Insmother”,”Null”,26779,3101,110;
“Malpais”,”Null”,8274,1184,102;
“Oasa”,”Null”,9581,1131,85;
“Omist”,”Null”,8980,992,43;
“Outer Passage”,”Null”,3660,568,88;
“Outer Ring”,”Null”,14932,1095,59;
“Paragon Soul”,”Null”,5041,466,39;
“Period Basis”,”Null”,24439,1988,40;
“Perrigen Falls”,”Null”,12034,1567,104;
“Providence”,”Null”,80990,6498,84;
“Pure Blind”,”Null”,63706,4409,85;
“Querious”,”Null”,59592,4809,95;
“Scalding Pass”,”Null”,29496,3353,81;
“Stain”,”Null”,51394,3800,132;
“Syndicate”,”Null”,148444,9316,106;
“Tenal”,”Null”,15134,1515,68;
“Tenerifis”,”Null”,14767,1579,81;
“The Kalevala Expanse”,”Null”,23906,2610,69;
“The Spire”,”Null”,3689,516,72;
“Tribute”,”Null”,100491,7354,54;
“Vale of the Silent”,”Null”,39772,3355,118;
“Venal”,”Null”,76225,6461,95;
“Wicked Creek”,”Null”,18051,2178,82;

Now this chart is full of surprises! The first myth is that “people live in C5-6 since why would anyone live in smaller”. Yet 58% of the WH kill value is in C1-4. You might say that it’s C6-dwellers roaming, but it doesn’t change anything. If they are in C4, they are in C4. Where you live is defined by where you are and not where you log off. It’s the same as the guy who spends 90% of his time in highsec and calls himself “lowsec pirate”. C1-4 holes are anything but irrelevant. Also, you are least likely to die in C4s (where C5+ people might roam) while most likely to die in C2 where they probably won’t. We have to face that there is a large unsung low-WH community, larger than the famous and visible 8B-shield-Moros-heroes.

Now let’s look for more data shall we! Sugar found this long ago (if you know more recent, please send me the link):



This chart says that the WH people have 5.86/5.51 = 1.06 more kills than an average EVE player. In null the same number is 52.37/20.07 = 2.61. Their ratio is 2.61/1.06 = 2.46, meaning the average null member has 2.46x more kills. Since the average value of a kill in null is 81M while 144M in WH, 2.46*81/144 = 1.38: an average null dweller spends 38% more ISK on PvP than an average WH dweller. So much for the “WH-ers throw insane ISK on PvP because they can afford it”.

To extract further data, we must do some magic with numbers. You can see that the average kill value is indeed higher in WH than in nullsec. The reason is simple: the more ships you lose, the cheaper they become since you have to replace them from the same income (1x1B = 10x100M = 100x10M). However since PvP-ers earn money to PvP, this isn’t linear. I mean if he is out of money, he stops doing PvP and go do PvE. It reminded me of temperature vs chemical reaction speed: the higher the temperature is (average ISK of the players) the faster the reaction is (the PvP). Now the connection of v-T is exponential. So I plotted the data of every region: kill value vs ln(kill number):


Now look at that! The line fits to the trend of nullsec regions. The regions with more kills have lower kill value (probably lot of frig and T1 cruiser roams) while the regions with less kills have higher. The WH regions are also plotted and you can see that the C1 and C2 ones are way below the line. A C1 dweller would spend about half as much on PvP as an average nullsec member if other conditions (mostly PvP frequency) would be equal. C3 and C4 are perfectly on the line, showing that they are in the same boots as the nullseccers. The C5 is 150% above the line the C6 is 220%. So even the elite of WH, the C6 dwellers are about 2x more rich than the big average of null. The only alternative explanation is that the WH dwellers are PvP-avoiding carebears who hoard their ISK and don’t spend it on PvP.

Actually this result is only surprising to people who believed the propaganda instead of thinking for themselves. Wormholes were introduced with Apocrypha expansion in March 2009, almost 3 years ago. More than enough time to equalize the incomes. Still the myth of the wealth in WHs remained because of two reasons: at first the sleeper grind ISK/hour is stellar compared to the nullsec ratting. However the nullsec ratter can rat in all his PvE time. He has a station, he has local channel, he can set up courier contracts for his loot and to get his ship/ammo. The WH dweller can’t just hit sleepers all day, he must mind his tower, roll holes and scan to be safe and go lot of jumps with a covops hauler to get his loot to Jita and get replacements. The WH life needs lot of PvE time which is not earning ISK. The second reason of the myth is that the large, front-page battles of null are fought by battlecruiser blobs, putting the “Drakes of poverty” to display while the titans are hiding from the eyes of the public. On the other hand the mass restrictions demand WH-ers to put their most expensive ships on the line in an eviction attempt, so the media will talk about their shinies while their cheap ships live and die in silence.

So my “ISK guide to veterans” stays unchallenged. If you want ISK, you should be in highsec.

PS: I have an idea of one more mythbusting post but can’t get the data for it. I got the above data by clicking on the links and copy-pasting. That can be done for 60 regions. Not for 7500 systems. To get a more accurate version of the above analysis and to defeat the last myth, I need system kill data like this somehow extracted from the API of the killboard: “Sujarento, 0.3, The Citadel, 5822, 453601611603” for every system (highsec, lowsec, nullsec, WH). I guess the kill numbers are for the last month, if previous months could be extracted too, that would greatly increase the reliability of the results. If you are an API wizard and want the last myth of EVE economy to fall, please create this database and send it in mail or upload it somewhere and send the link.

PS2: of course the optimal would be an insane sized database with all the individual kills giving fields “Systemname, secstatus/WH class, lossvalue”. That would allow mapping the wealth of various type of players perfectly, but doubt that that can be created at all.

– Gevlon Goblin

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84 Comments

  1. kevin

    Greedy Goblin rep +1

    December 25, 2012 at 9:34 pm Reply
    1. Anona-mouse

      Bad kevin! We don't reward stupidity, we either destroy its ships or bring it to the nearest biomassing facility and dispose of it properly.

      December 28, 2012 at 4:01 am Reply
  2. Anon

    I don't get it

    December 25, 2012 at 9:47 pm Reply
  3. Ehm...

    "The first myth is that “people live in C5-6 since why would anyone live in smaller”. Yet 58% of the WH kill value is in C1-4"

    Highsec/lowsec connections… Any good and established WH corp lives in a C5 or C6.

    December 25, 2012 at 9:52 pm Reply
    1. M1k3y

      Plus there are many C2 dwellers due to their double static

      December 25, 2012 at 10:11 pm Reply
  4. anon

    This is why he got kicked from test

    December 25, 2012 at 9:57 pm Reply
    1. R A S T Elighten

      You make it sound like its a bad thing…geez

      December 26, 2012 at 12:06 am Reply
  5. Goonion

    WH players tend to be nubes who are to scared to take a stand and join an alliance that matters. They are usually players who tried to be in Null Sec and failed. They then move to WHs claiming that they are now leet PvPers but really these players take part in nothing important in EvE. Do nothing and achieve nothing. Grow up you nubes and take part in an alliance that means something and makes a difference. And no we don't want you in Goons, you already failed in null but you could always join Razor.

    December 25, 2012 at 9:58 pm Reply
    1. Goonion

      WH players tend to be useless at PvP. You have to remember they are only there in the first place cos they failed. The environment is not "more challenging" its just a care bear haven.

      December 25, 2012 at 10:09 pm Reply
      1. Goonion

        "Any good and established WH corp lives in a C5 or C6."
        Wake up man only nubes live in WHs.

        December 25, 2012 at 10:12 pm Reply
        1. -=T=-

          Nullsec matters? Honestly, I find your politics and drama in the great nullsec and CFC to be quite boring.

          Besides, I think you have yet to face the C5-6 wormhole alliances such as Exhale, No Holes Barred, and Norcorp and fight them in their realm. Would be fun to see what happens when you can't bring your entire Drake blob fleet in because of mass restrictions.

          December 25, 2012 at 11:28 pm Reply
          1. Goonion

            Spoken like a true looser.

            December 25, 2012 at 11:49 pm
          2. -=T=-

            Spoken like a true clown whose hot air filled head wouldn't fit in a wormhole regardless.

            December 26, 2012 at 12:11 am
          3. rane

            so its ok for u to hotdrop 1000 drake but an ambush out of a WH is losers? man ur are fucked up..

            December 26, 2012 at 12:57 am
          4. Furrey Zateki

            http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13… atleast Exhale wasnt that good, sure we were 2 times their numbers but they had alot better ships and 4 triage on field from start, 9 triage when we left.

            December 26, 2012 at 7:55 am
          5. jbq

            That was about 15 different exhale toons who reshipped after being blapped. I would say 15 on 45 is a toughfleet to fight. Would yall rather the 15 man exhale fleet have pos' d up and just chatted in local? Fights rstill fun even if the odds are not in ir favor

            December 26, 2012 at 5:06 pm
        2. G0hme

          I like how "anchor + F1" is equal to achieving something. I do like how the bad Wspace nubs keeps kicking in Goons teeth whenever they attempt get a foothold in Wspace. You didnt know this Goonie? Guess you don't really matter in your alliance.

          December 25, 2012 at 11:29 pm Reply
          1. Goonion

            I am one of Goons most important leaders… Wake up and smell the coffee, have a long think and maybe you will have some small clue of who you are talking to.
            WH'ers like to think that they are "good" at PvP. Please… Pvping once a month in low sec or hiding a fleet behind a WH and calling it PvP, what a bunch of useless nubes. You are on the same level as a high sec care bear, the null sec wars control ALL of EvE. We are the most powerful force in EvE and are in control of you personal. Do you not think that your alliance leader pays me and my other leaders protection ISK every month to allow you to have your WH??? Almost every alliance across EvE does. Most especially WH alliances pay. Carry on talking shit and I will double it.

            December 25, 2012 at 11:56 pm
          2. -=T=-

            You sound more like a random grunt who got spoon-fed his propaganda this morning after his diaper was changed.

            December 26, 2012 at 12:16 am
          3. Bendy

            Honestly, he rather sounds like a troll.

            December 26, 2012 at 12:52 am
          4. goonion lover

            Honestly, he IS a troll

            December 26, 2012 at 3:17 am
          5. Father Gabriel

            XD you have to much infos about his diapers, sounds like a close relation ah ah???

            December 26, 2012 at 7:32 pm
          6. nobody cares

            lolol — "have some small clue of who you are talking to." –You're presupposing that anyone gives a shit who you are. If you are one of the Goons "most important leaders," then I doubt you'd hide behind a wall of anonymity.

            Also, your "protection isk" scam sounds an awful lot like a mafia scam to collect money, too. At the end of the day, nobody pays for protection from the protector. Grow up and maybe you'll have some clue how it really works, you know, when you're not being one of the "most important leaders."

            December 26, 2012 at 2:35 am
          7. Akrasjel Lanate

            oh god what a tard lol

            December 26, 2012 at 10:04 am
          8. StarFleetCommander

            We don't get involved with Null sec wars/politics as in null it is a case of who has the bigger blob or who has the most supers/Titans.
            People say we live in wormholes cos we cant hold sov the reason is is because we don't want to hold sov and be stuck in one area of eve fighting the same old people every day and running shitty sites in null sec and being hot dropped by 500 mealstroms or rokh's or zealots or supers or titans or all at the same time, and getting tidi and fighting with no skill whats so ever. I dont see any null sec alliance come and take a stand in W-space apart from -A- failed attempt, we roam null sec everyday and also take our 30 manned armor gangs to your home systems being outnumbered 3-1 in some cases, we have no backup we cant cyno in another 40 guns from somewhere but yet we go against the odds to fight outnumbered.

            I dont doubt that you are the "most powerful force in EvE" because the truth is you are but only because you blob the enemy until the odds are 100-1 and you blob supers and titans etc etc etc for me there is no skill involved here.

            Come to Wormholes and bring some GF's, you stated " the null sec wars control ALL of EvE" i don't feel controlled in wormholes i think null sec alliances stay anyway as the tables will be even and you will have to fight against the odds or with even numbers 😛

            December 26, 2012 at 3:23 pm
          9. Goonion

            You poor deluded little man. Get some balls and come and show us.

            December 26, 2012 at 5:44 pm
          10. goons r gay

            Please double it.

            December 26, 2012 at 5:00 pm
          11. I still say you smell of bad troll…'

            December 26, 2012 at 5:03 pm
          12. What, you will double his shit?
            I think its quite funny that a goonie is talking about good PvP, cause the only reason you guys are any good is cause you are so many ppl, leet pvp you are not… GTFO and spin your drake..

            December 26, 2012 at 5:06 pm
          13. recollector1973

            Dude, your beard…go shave, look like someone inteligent, than come here and comment.

            January 1, 2013 at 4:50 pm
          14. apimp

            LOL @ goon leadership

            December 26, 2012 at 7:32 pm
          15. Alex

            Wow! The brain wash is strong with this one!

            December 29, 2012 at 8:41 am
          16. recollector1973

            The man is right.If they want, WH dwellers in goon space would be obliterated…just for fun.

            As a TNT member, I know what I am talking about.Your leaders are paying protection tax in order to have their member farm the WH.

            January 1, 2013 at 4:48 pm
      2. joebro1060

        I remeber evicting a goon wh bearing group from their c6 a few weeks ago. The eviction went uncontested too. It really shows that goon fighting spirit.

        December 26, 2012 at 4:58 pm Reply
      3. Bob

        Typical idiotic Goonion troll comment. When I think of WH PVPers I think of RnK, Apeture Harmonics and the like. These both dwell in WHs and venture into Lo/Null for more PVP. Verge Of Collapse are pretty good PVPers also…who fight outnumbered and at least try for gudfites.

        Several of my friends are considering going to WHs for a change. Not because they cant handle Null. Quite the opposite actually. Myself, I dislike the lag that comes from 900+ in local, ruining the outcome of the fight when, its clear the missile boats should be wining, but dont due to the altered mechanics of fighting with heavy lag versus gun based ships.

        Again, personally, I've never done WH living/ratting to any extent. This is what draws me there. Plus, isk generation in Null is boring most of the time. Doing the same missions in hi-sec over n over is even more monotonous.

        I dont beleive I've failed in Null, our alliance has done incredibly well for its size the past 6 months (The Unthinkables.) Eliminate lag and I would glady stay in Null.

        If WHs dont maintain my interest then I'll be seriously considering quitting the game for 6 months or more.

        December 26, 2012 at 8:06 pm Reply
        1. Goonion

          And when have "RnK, Apeture Harmonics and the like" reinforced a Goon system recently? – No I didn't think so.

          December 26, 2012 at 8:33 pm Reply
          1. Cale

            Most WHer's don't consider goons worth their time. Even the weakest WH corp can put up a better fight than the same number of goons.

            December 27, 2012 at 1:36 am
          2. lel

            Why don't you take our sov about it?

            December 28, 2012 at 5:28 pm
      4. goons are retards

        HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

        January 4, 2013 at 12:00 am Reply
    2. Somone

      You can't say WH's don't know pvp and hiding behind wh, null sec player hiding in station and using bots to make ISK …
      Again for pvp Wh you forgot who have won the last tournament …. :).

      December 26, 2012 at 11:52 am Reply
    3. I smell the troll in you, very strongly-.-

      December 26, 2012 at 5:01 pm Reply
      1. Father Gabriel

        the troll in you, i smell very strongly .. would Yoda ve said ^.^

        December 26, 2012 at 5:09 pm Reply
        1. Goonion

          I smell a lot of stupid people in EvE who need a good Goon education, about how EvE actually works.

          December 26, 2012 at 5:18 pm Reply
    4. buggrit

      -maybe they want money for THEMSELVES and not the alliance LEADERSHIP?

      December 26, 2012 at 6:33 pm Reply
    5. DarthNefarius

      I won´t even read that shit. Riv, make that guy stop posting his mental diarrea on your site. The only thing worthwhile reading are the flameposts in the comment section.

      December 27, 2012 at 5:26 pm Reply
  6. kraik

    You have a weird hobby goblin, anyway everyone knows Wormhole denizens are often pvp shy and many are just indie types that do what they would in highsec but for in a more challenging and personally more rewarding setting. To be fair I agree that highsec denizens can still make the most ISK the easiest if they want, well safe and AFK for sure. I also agree with the arguments how WH ISK/hour is overrated You dont appear to be proving it though, entire method of proof fails you crunch numbers that are meaningless. You equate ISK lost with ISK made, thats simply not the case for a lot of people. I know people who buy supers but never use them so never loose them, who have hunderd expensive ships in their hanger bay but hardly take them out to play.
    Stop being so obsessed with ISK, I play for fun. Best fun can still be had in frigs and cruisers. Doesnt cost anything so I dont have to spend more then a few hours amonth making ISK, however I can and sometimes I about most likely ill buy shit that will never make it to my lossboard. In he end it is about playing he game you want to play, I cant be bothered to dual or multibox, I am far to casual for that. I wont crunch numbers to figure out how I can make most. If you like doing that it is cool, stop being so concerned about what other people think though.

    December 25, 2012 at 10:02 pm Reply
    1. DubbaYooArr

      "You have a weird hobby goblin",
      "Stop being so obsessed with ISK, I play for fun",
      "In he end it is about playing he game you want to play, I cant be bothered to dual or multibox,"
      "I wont crunch numbers to figure out how I can make most"
      "stop being so concerned about what other people think though."

      Goblin, please open the shades in your bedroom and see there IS a world outside. Next, leave your bedroom, open the front door and ENTER the world outside. Wear sunscreen as you most likely haven't been exposed to sunlight in many moons and any prolonged exposure will leave you burnt. Venture off and do something productive, cast the temptations to calculate isk per hour and market strategies away. You are not alone, literally, there are billions of people in the world – interact with 1 or 2 ( not on the computer) and you may find new meaning to your life.

      Good luck on your new adventure.

      December 26, 2012 at 5:11 pm Reply
  7. Pantera

    so WH ppl aren't rich because ppl live there and have only 5-ish % of kills compared to 7.somthing % of low-sec pirates that live in high-sec which make up 2/3rds compared to the 20% that get over half the total kills are null-sec bears.

    tl;dr therefor Goons are shit!
    Proof: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Proof_that_eve

    December 25, 2012 at 10:03 pm Reply
  8. Lives in a WH

    I have 2 WH alts and 2 combat alts in a major null-sec alliance. WH sites are how I make money…I can't stand conventional ratting/incursions anymore. The ISK per hour estimate is VERY low (by multiple orders of magnitude) if you know what you are doing. Most C5/C6 residents grind anomalies with spider-tanked T3s and crap…very fail. The average WH player is not a newb. You have to understand the relevant mechanics very well or you will have problems.

    December 25, 2012 at 10:09 pm Reply
  9. Morph

    Maybe, just maybe, not every thing in Eve is about isk/hr and people live in a wormhole to have their own little piece of space and have fun. Just maybe …

    December 25, 2012 at 10:43 pm Reply
    1. MisterNick

      This, wormholing offers something different, and keeps you paying attention.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:45 am Reply
  10. RA pilot

    i think greedy goblin needs to live in wh before writing about

    most people don't die in their systems, they die either in static, or somewhere on the way to k-space

    that's why the the majority of kills are in c2/3, because more often than not those systems have an exit to k -space and people are camping it

    the reason there aren't so many kills in c4s is because firstly not many people live there because of harder logistics, and second it doesn't have as many holes as other systems due to the nature of c4.

    December 25, 2012 at 10:57 pm Reply
  11. iskbot#1337

    "In a WH by capital escalating sleepers you can do 2-300M/hour."

    besides it is less than that you have to keep in mind that after the sides are done there is nearly no income.

    December 25, 2012 at 11:21 pm Reply
  12. Cannonball1

    The major mistake here is equating isk lost with the living location. Example: A character does not rat in nullsec but still PVP's in a nullsec alliance. How does he get money for ships? The answer: Alts! These alts are located elsewhere doing more profitable things (incursions, faction warfare, highsec missioning, wormholes, etc.) and are extremely risk averse–meaning they are in occupations that avoid fights and will often run rather than fight. After all, these characters are in place to make money–and as you pointed out, any time spent fighting is time spent not making money, nevermind the setbacks of losing ships.

    Wormhole people may not be the richest in the galaxies–like you said, traders have that distinction. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of wealth to be had in WH compared to similar activities in other regions.

    December 25, 2012 at 11:41 pm Reply
  13. Gumpin

    I think you're missing a huge variable. You almost had it but it evaded you.

    The Sov warfare mechanic is almost always burning in nullsec, and now burning hotter in low sec. WH space on the otherhand is only rarely embroiled in immense wars.

    While it may be true that you could get more isk over time in null due to the freedom of player organized and game mechanic(local chat) safety in nullsec. The fact you, or your organization, pays dearly for every large fight cuts into the long term collection of isk.

    With Wormholes you can't be hit with a hotdrop or a black ops gank. 500 people can't blitz your system and shotgun all the sites in seconds. You can't camp the routes in and out of the wh, without extreme dedication, because the WH will be somewhere else.

    Then add on the security measures organizations enact in wormholes, no less extensive as a Null alliance, and you get to the point where if both were making the exact same isk/tick then the WHer would be richer at the end. Barring theft or HS gank which haunts both null and WHs.

    Also a lot of WHer pvpers treat their random holes like a roving pirate ship. When they appear in nullsec/lowsec they break out the guns and jump out of WH space into regular space to do their combat. Lowering the pvp totals in WHs.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:18 am Reply
  14. Irreligious

    This article is very well done from a scientific point of view but I feel that you have missed one huge variable that might change the data at hand. Wspace dwellers often travel into nullsec on roams but Kspace dwellers seldom return the favor. This means that many wh kills are attributed to nullsec peeps and some wh kills are given to wspace people as well. Example- My corp has 82.3% of it's total kills in terms of isk in null sec and low sec, the rest in w space and we have not had any high sec kills. I have not logged off outside of a wh for over a year now.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:34 am Reply
  15. LOL.

    congrats gevlon, once again you managed to pull some numbers, add a bit of guesstimates and dragged the basic discussion so far off course that you can make a totally invalid point.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:36 am Reply
  16. Omen Nihilo

    Terrible article… the graphs are absolute garbage and the content is exasperating.

    The most obvious flaw is your attempt to connect isk making and pvp with areas of space. While in k-space this might be true to some degree, it's definitely not applicable to w-space.

    For example, I live in a C5 and make all my isk there, but I almost never get pvp in my home system. The majority of my kills are in nullsec, but even then it can't be tied to a region. Every day I get connections to random areas of space, and wherever my chain leads, I pvp there. So while my isk making is definitely tied to a C5, you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell from my killboard.

    Please stop these w-space posts from people with no experience… it's rather tiring.

    December 26, 2012 at 2:51 am Reply
  17. WTF Wall of Text

    TL; DR

    I went to a killboard and extracted numbers of PvP kills and equated that to income instead of going to dotlan and usng PvE ship kills. I then went and wrote a long thesis based on a faulty assumption and came up with some nexpected conclusions.

    December 26, 2012 at 3:27 am Reply
  18. Shattershark

    And with all that math and graphs he forgot to control for cyno ships.

    December 26, 2012 at 4:00 am Reply
  19. Guest

    your a moron, the majority of high class wormhole money isn't in the sleepers, but in the gas clouds.

    December 26, 2012 at 4:12 am Reply
  20. Anona-mouse

    Umm…didn't Gevlon quit playing EVE a while ago or was that just a gimmick to get attention?

    December 26, 2012 at 5:02 am Reply
  21. Goonion

    Evokes leaders corruption and greed got the better of them so they sold out their own alliance for personal isk. Evoke was useless at defending their space anyway.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:44 pm Reply
  22. owning goblin

    look at your own chart.
    WH total kills in isk is 5x lower than null and WH is 4x less populated, bringing wh/null ISK kill ratio to ~1.2 per capita. This is further skewed by wh class but so be it (and we need to talk about isk and not kills because if you gonna talk about "rich myth" then isk is all that matters).
    Now tell me what is the period that is data collected. Does it have pre-apocrypa data? If so then you are screwed. And even if its since apocrypha only, then you are screwed anyway go figure why.
    Finally you need to understand that super cap kills account for significant isk damage and there is no sc in wh's. The biggest you can realistically kill is 5bil with very rare 10b kills.

    oh and "While trading is clearly bigger money"
    how much isk you are willing to bet on that (via escrow Chribba)? I mean surely you are one of biggest winners in trade game and your best month should account for a good metric right???

    December 26, 2012 at 12:57 pm Reply
  23. Mister AL

    Some assumptions of the article made me laugh loud.

    December 26, 2012 at 1:01 pm Reply
  24. I have never been to WHs

    While someone managed to paint pretty graphs and come up with many numbers, though he tries to make it look scientific, the article itselfs is shit, the work is not scientific at all, its just random numbers thrown together.

    It seems the author has never been to WHs at all, nor has he any idea about the concepts at work in a WH.

    He missed some big ISK generators, like gas and magsite loot, missed the fact that you have to scan all the connections between the WHs, ect. its just impossible to compare both spaces like done here, to many variables differ.

    I am not saying you get uber rich in a WH (well you can but its real work, escallating 10 Sites for 3 days with a few buddies gets you shitload of money, but is mind-numbing work)

    PS: That Shield Moros is the way to fly a Moros in a pulsar, build yourself an armor Moros, fly it to a C5 or C6 Pulsar and see how shitty it is, it would probably get raped by a shit fitted naglfar. So stop rambling about it, and do your homework before calling everyone else an idiot.

    December 26, 2012 at 3:50 pm Reply
  25. DarthNefarius

    For the life of me Goblin I cannot see how you make the claim that WH's are not huge income generators when you completely ignore 'blue loot' and nano ribbons in your article.

    December 26, 2012 at 4:48 pm Reply
  26. DubbaYooArr

    TL;DR

    December 26, 2012 at 4:59 pm Reply
  27. FA grunt

    I am a alliance FC and some of my best fights were in whs seeing some of these post and topic of this article disappoints me to see eve in a frail state…..wh space is the closest your going to get for truly skilled pvp also it is true its hard work to live there and usually controlled by people trying to run away from the rest of eve…..the wh itself is a awsome playground

    December 26, 2012 at 8:58 pm Reply
  28. Shana_Zera

    Another case of "Great Evidence" and "Poor Argument".

    Having a lot of data, charts, and graphs are supposed to AID an argument, not BE an argument. And quite frankly, in the words of my beloved English teacher, "You're comparing apples and oranges." Unless you can come up with a clear, logical explanation of why two and two go together in the first place, the argument is very weak.

    Plus, collective experience almost always trumps data when formulating an argument, so next time you might want to talk with some real WH dwellers before writing an article about them.

    TL;DR: You're being fruity without being juicy. 😛

    December 26, 2012 at 9:58 pm Reply
  29. wtf goblin

    I won´t even read that shit. Riv, make that guy stop posting his mental diarrea on your site. The only thing worthwhile reading are the flameposts in the comment section.

    December 27, 2012 at 2:29 am Reply
  30. Yahlom

    Greedy Goblin writes such shit

    December 27, 2012 at 11:29 am Reply
  31. iwasatoad

    it must sicken all you null sec people to know that in a single day a WH player like i use to be could make 2-10 bill depending on how much effort i put forth while you grind all week to buy a play toy to pew pew with WH space is a great place to lear tatics for 0.0 as you learn quick local does not matter and just how anoying logistics can be plus every 0.0 player if there smart and rat for there isk will go into W-space once every 3-6 months for a week or 2 to pull in 10-30bill to afford your t-2 and t-3 hulls and fit's as well as dread's and such making all 0.0 alliances ship replacment program a joke due to you can make more in there tax free and never even need to use a SRP or support players who dont work for what theay have they just buy the first one and let every one els drag there weight. all you 0.0 players that want to say there care bares or noob's go find them in a WH in a fair fight +1 and just see how you fair not meny fleet's from 0.0 attacking WH dwelers win unless there blobing but then agin that is the only way most 0.0 aliances win a battle is to out number at least 2-1 and in W-space you will need thoes odd's most the time to beat the WH dweler as he has plenty of isk to fit his t-3 or faction BS with 8bill of faction or officer take for example the sher damage that 10 nightmares or the tankability of 10 rattle snakes with just a little rr you would half to have twice the numbers to take them on and not die horribaly and at the end you will say our fleet is worth 4bill one of there ships is worth 8 bill your right but isk to a WH player does not mean much there home does and theay dont normally loose

    December 27, 2012 at 11:49 am Reply
  32. wormbro

    lol.. i laugh cus I think of a few weeks back when we reinforced an entire goonswarm c6 farming system. (you know that one small OEG tower that was in Goons while the rest were your alt corp, maybe you shouldnt have set that up fucktards cus we see anything cfc if w-space and we are going to lock that shit down.) I lol even more when I got confirmed reports from other w-space entities that cfc was rolling holes to get into their bear system to try and save it. NO one in w-space will put up with CFC farming activies, or any tech moon holding alliance for that matter. GTFO, cus you are not welcome and you will never be.

    December 27, 2012 at 3:34 pm Reply
    1. mad

      That's interesting. Because multiple tech-holding alliances have wormhole corps in c5/6. I am in one of them.

      December 31, 2012 at 3:00 am Reply
  33. Kiyohime Ronuken

    Saying it doesn't matter where people 'live' vs where they 'work' is like saying lowsecers who mainly roam null, don't live in low. Well – yes. They do. Moreover, it matters that they live in low vs null. DUH.

    BTW – C4s are common to inhabit but many work the connector C? WHs daily, leaving a simple, somewhat-humble online pos the only evidence of their existence…

    December 27, 2012 at 5:05 pm Reply
  34. Goonion Mom

    Goonie! Stop writing on the internet and go to bed, NOW…you're making mom and dad very VERY embarassed…luckly you are in fact adopted, so to everyone that is reading this, no, he doesn't have our genes…he's stupidity comes from somewhere else.

    December 27, 2012 at 10:17 pm Reply
  35. Goonion

    When Goons highest echelons of leadership have something to say, maybe you should listen instead of trying to make fun? Maybe what I say will affect every aspect of your game play every time you log on?

    December 28, 2012 at 1:14 am Reply
  36. Antigoony

    Goblin, you should go back to playing WoW imo. You're statistics are laughable and your writing is riddled with errors. At least the comment section is always good and flamey on your articles… great entertainment there!

    December 28, 2012 at 7:15 pm Reply
  37. Rek

    Who let this idiot write articles? He clearly know nothing. There aren't an endless number of sites sites in wormholes so i don't know where he is getting the 230 million isk figure from.

    December 29, 2012 at 9:07 pm Reply
  38. Big WH dude

    You can't really blame the guy, he doesn't live in wormholes.

    The fact is…people who don't live in C5 and C6 ARE carebears. There's not much PvP in them except ganks. He gets some points about WH PvE right but misses plenty of stuff. I mean, I think he's right though on the general point. You don't get trillions of ISK in WH, you just get enough to comfortably pay for PvP without having to grind.

    December 30, 2012 at 5:51 am Reply
  39. Anon

    Like any area in eve there are obviously a tremendous difference between rich and poor WH inhabitants. With the right knowledge and resources it's fairly simple to earn 2 bil Isk/hour using 5 accounts operated by ideally 2 ppl. Clean out a WH, earn 40-45 bil in 4 days of farming and go to the next one. It's time consuming but simple and with low risk. Fortunately WH dwellers appreaciate the more exciting parts of eve and usually spend their time pvp-ing.

    January 1, 2013 at 12:53 am Reply
  40. no name

    "The only alternative explanation is that the WH dwellers are PvP-avoiding carebears who hoard their ISK and don’t spend it on PvP."

    u serious bro?!?!?!

    January 4, 2013 at 12:02 am Reply
  41. no name

    "The only alternative explanation is that the WH dwellers are PvP-avoiding carebears who hoard their ISK and don’t spend it on PvP."

    January 4, 2013 at 12:15 am Reply

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