We have discussed about flavors of the month before in Eve News24 and why players have the tendency of putting nicknames to their fleet doctrines as it keep thing handy during form ups, here is my take on the current FOTM.

Ask Dr. Fit: A Cat to kill another Cat

If you have been closely watching the Southern conflict between the Pandemic Legion / TEST alliance forces and Against All Authorities you will notice the recent use of “Apocalypse Navy Issue” battleships in the field by PL/TEST. This ship is the backbone of the “FoxCat” doctrine, which I’ll try to explain the basics in this piece.

Faced with today’s headache of Null-Sec warfare, Pandemic Legion once again took the task to design a proper doctrine specifically to counter the low sig, high DPS ThunderCats – ironically – another of PL’s creations.

They needed a ship with tracking bonuses, instant high DPS, extended range and an even higher EHP which would allow them to sustain damage until the repairs arrive. Basically a HellCat on steroids:

Defensive wise we got a ship with high decent resists and a 170,000 EHP buffer to play with. Capable of delivering a theoretical 2,700 alpha, the expected engagement range is about ~100 km using long range crystals, most of Pandemic Legion and a surprising chunk of TEST have perfected the required skills to properly fly the doctrine. As Tengus will try to get a bit closer to dampen tracking a bit and deliver DPS faster, the use of tracking booster pills recommended to every pilot should they wish to add up to the stacked tracking stats (check the meds and low slots).


The following ping elaborates on the supporting ships and desired numbers:

These are the MARK1 fittings, or FoxCat One you migth say. We tend to favour tank instead of gank in our mk1 fittings and adjust with more DPS from there as we see how they handle vs. bombers and Tornados.

Logistics in this concept for noware used to repair secondary damage (ie. bombs) via b/cast for shield command and to provide acute help when perching/going on top of them before the big boys land to take care of the real repping. As such we will typically use relatively low number of Logistics and really ONLY Oneiros should fly since I think the guardians even in their severely gimped form will not be able to tank 140 tengus shooting at you.

Order is therefore: FoxCat/FauxCat (80+) > AntiBomber Zealot (10-20) > Loki (4-6) > Tengu (whoever is crazy bastard enough to fly them) > Oneiros > Guardian > ARMOR DICTORS/HICTORS

If you cannot fly one of these as I said, don’t worry — there WILL be a DRAKE or INSTACANE fleet up to support these. The power of this doctorine comes from its very different utility from our usual shield fleets and its ability to bounce on top of the hostiles and rape like crazy. While it will take 40+ bombs to even kill the Apocs (50+ for NAPocs) — we will field dozen or two antibomber ships to help the other fleets.

Risky Business

Flying faction battleship fleets is indeed a double edge weapon. Either by design, pure ingenuity or simply absent-mindedness during the planning phase every Pandemic Legion “Cat” fit has a few vulnerabilities which make undocking one of these fleets a ballsy endeavor unless you are a very experimented FC.

For starters given the slow align time (~14 seconds), the inherently high sig of a battleship and the micro warpdrive penalty will turn this fleet into the perfect bombing run target, and while the massive EHP should suffice for at least the three bomber runs, the stress on logistic will be felt greatly.

Whilst the 100mn micro-warpdrive provide a 700m/s speed (pretty decent for a battleship), this is a one expensive ship, prone to be dropped like it hot by tracking Dreadnoughts, in fact just two of these babies cost as much as a single dreadnought hull so even suicide drops can be attempted against FoxCats. Also FoxCats don’t play well against sniping ships with double the range and speed, which is why you will see a lot of FoxCat engagements being held against Oracles and Nagas.

Finally, there is the isk-war factor. Flying a ship which cost one and a half PLEX is not something you would want to dog pile with the same abandon other doctrines permit. Also the insurance payout is way lower than the price tag – so losing twenty of these pimp-mobiles are pretty much he same than losing a super-capital. On the other hand I can now see clearly why a month and a half ago EN24’s drop-box was steaming with tips on how “TEST and PL” were joining the Amarr Faction.

I might have left a few details out, but this is the 101 on what a FoxCat is and what are they be used for. I hope you enjoyed the article.

Here is the fitting if you wish to try it out:


– Dr. Fit

Send us Intel/Corrections via dropbox or shoot us an e-mail


  1. you mad bro

    From what I hear when stress-tested earlier this weekend, they absolutely dominated the tengus -A- puts out. The official word was something like "we lost one due to disconnection."

    September 3, 2012 at 8:34 am Reply
    1. nine

      The BR supports that. But we'll see how that changes over a few engagements. I think the big problem for foxcats will be their DPS. Sure 400dps isn't low compared to Rokhs, but for 750m ISK it is!

      September 3, 2012 at 8:45 am Reply
      1. It's very cheap DPS, when you only lose 5 in 14 days.
        If thats how you choose to look at it.

        Price isn't/shouldn't be a factor.

        September 3, 2012 at 8:58 am Reply
        1. mmk

          Winning side alliance hopper.

          September 3, 2012 at 3:23 pm Reply
      2. look

        hey man, check out the DPS graph on EFT: the fox cat actually does way more damage at every range then the rokh setup unless the target is coming basically straight at it

        September 3, 2012 at 11:58 am Reply
    2. Pulus

      how about that kill, also disco?

      September 3, 2012 at 9:40 am Reply
      1. Val_V

        This kill indicates that Soco have already found a counter for FoxCats:

        September 3, 2012 at 10:00 am Reply
        1. AAaaaaaa

          he got probed out after disconnect.

          September 3, 2012 at 1:57 pm Reply
          1. LI3 Rocks

            a Desty killing a FBS… thats Fk'd up….

            September 7, 2012 at 6:05 am
      2. obv

        obviously, you don't die to torping bombers in a fleet unless you disconnect mid fight

        September 3, 2012 at 6:27 pm Reply
    3. Ral reason

      The problem lies in the threat of PL super cap fleet. This Foxcat fleet is nothing special without the triage carriers. Now in such an engagement the counter would be to bring dreads but SOCO will not use them due to PL's supers.

      So the success of this new fleet doctrine lies in the threat of supers and not in the ships themselves.

      September 3, 2012 at 9:42 am Reply
      1. a Foxcat Father

        the NaPocs easily defeated an -A- tengu fleet led by makalu in 4-0 last night, without triage.

        we've had triage before, with rokhs, and they've still died easily versus the right combination of bombs and alpha.

        our problem has essentially been tracking all along. you can't kill what you can't hit. it wouldn't matter that you can't break a triage carrier if they NaPocs couldn't hit you, but they can, and they dont need to web you to do it.

        there's not very many people in here who seem to quite understand how this comp really works and why exactly its killing tengus so easily. Its kind of fun to watch :) Even the numbers in the OP are pretty damn wrong.

        feel free to try and brawl them down with high DPS battleships as well, you'll find that you will NEVER break them, and they do about 900 dps each at close range.

        September 3, 2012 at 11:56 am Reply
        1. M1k3y

          They do 600 DPS with conlagration… ty please try again.

          September 3, 2012 at 3:10 pm Reply
          1. look

            you're missing something, you dumb faggot. see if you can figure out what it is.

            September 3, 2012 at 3:28 pm
          2. M1k3y

            "and they do about 900 dps each at close range"

            Nope, I stand by my EFT'ing, the one heat sink fit gives 600 DPS with conflagration.
            Seems like your the one missing something…

            September 3, 2012 at 8:18 pm
          3. google

            anyone want to teach m1k3y why hes wrong?

            man you're going to feel stupid when you see it.

            September 3, 2012 at 8:44 pm
          4. M1k3y

            Do share, what am I missing?

            September 3, 2012 at 9:36 pm
          5. maaaaaate



            September 3, 2012 at 10:26 pm
          6. heh

            Yes and drones on an apoc navy can hit how far? 51km.

            September 3, 2012 at 10:35 pm
          7. google

            /o you are so fucking retarded holy sHIT

            September 3, 2012 at 11:42 pm
          8. LI3 Rocks

            i'm thinking drugs…. DRUGS MAN!!!!

            or overload….

            "how did you burn out your guns" Makalu

            "by shooting the enemy, instead of running away, how else" Random ex -a- grunt…


            September 7, 2012 at 6:09 am
          9. M1k3y

            Because you can totally get 300 DPS with 75 bandwith of drones…

            Heavys wont keep up, sentries wont track, even then they will only attack out to 60km max

            Valk is only 150 DPS which their precious "Firewall" Lokis will kill

            Disclaimer: Firewall Lokis was from some test guy who convo'd me, he didnt come across as the most knowladgeable about Foxcats

            September 3, 2012 at 10:46 pm
        2. heh

          You forgot to mention it was late US tz and you had the tengu fleet outnumbered more than 2:1 with apoc navy issues + drake fleet + naga fleet, local over 400. The tengu fleet was just over 100, with about 12 total active logistics.

          Good job.

          September 3, 2012 at 5:26 pm Reply
          1. google

            well, if the roles were reversed, and it was HBC living in 4-0, you would have lost your entire fleet to tracking dreads and then whined about it on evenews for a while.

            didn't you try to use tracking dreads against PL once? oh yeah they died, because you don't know how to fit / fly them right.

            so what actually happened is you herpderped around in what you think are invincible tengus instead of using a proven BS counter, without any chance of PL supers reaching you, lost, and now can't figure out what went wrong.

            September 3, 2012 at 7:07 pm
        3. BntyHunter

          A Even fleet of well co-ordinated 1400 Maels can break them the same as the can break a Hellcat fleet.

          You are right tracking is the issue but so is Logi and PL has some of the best in the Biz. Being an Ex CH guy I know alot of them.

          Alpha takes this ability away, Tengu`s and HML`s do not, so esentially they are trying to beat the NAPOC`s by out DPS and out tanking them and that cant happen since they will get even tanks or better but never equal the same DPS to Tank Ratio.

          But 170k EHP BS is nothing to 25 Maels, and the problem with DPS fleets is once they start losing ships they get exponentially weaker where as the Alpha ships that say start at 150 in numbers can still insta pop a NAPOC every 15 secs even down to there last 25, and at the rate of there expense Im sure a solid FC would pull his NAPOCS and start using Hallcats again.

          If 100/4 Maels showed up at optimal vs 100 NAPOCS within the first volley 4 napocs are dead second in 15 seconds and 8 are dead, and there is no saving them with your excellent logi pilots or even logi carriers.

          Anyways its how you counter Hellcats and Napoc`s are Hellcats with more Flexability and range, But same principle Hi DPS Hi tank low Alpha very High Tracking, the only reason the Mael works is because the tracking vs the Napoc is easy.

          September 3, 2012 at 9:00 pm Reply
          1. herp

            They're drop supers on maels.. My guess is they have 50-100 supers and titans ready before each fight

            September 4, 2012 at 9:39 am
          2. eft warriors ftw..

            Its more like 211k EHP after legion bonuses on weakest resists (roughly omnitanked) so you gona add few more maels to pop one. Also assuming everyone actually gets perfect hit is pretty retarted. Realistically I wouldnt even try pop one with less than 40 or 50 maels. Not to mention some PL pilots having some LG slaves for sure for additional buffer. It's not like they poor or anything…

            Then you get random 0-75% red cycle in tidi and your next volley is completely screwed with misstimings or you wait long just to make sure random red cycles are over and lose too much time (and ships) waiting. If tis not timed properly you waste entire cycle killing nothing.

            Also as PL have spies knowing enemy fleet compos before they actually arrrive in system its highly unlikely you can surprise buttsex them with alpha. They'll just drop 50 slowcats or dreads something if they think their bling is at any risk.

            September 4, 2012 at 11:26 am
          3. BntyHunter

            Thats why smaller groups are always better. You do realize FC`s can link comms to each others and at any point the 25 groups arent enough the FC can call 2 groups together, Like I said it takes proper planning and groups like PL and NCDOT/Evoke and a few others in game can do it.

            Im no EFT`er I have flown in groups like Cry Havoc-NCDOT my entire time in Eve.

            I didnt say they were better than Napocs, but they certainly are better vs them than Tengu fleets.

            And like I said you have to assume you will lose the fleet with that many supers etc waiting anyways, you are trying to go basically Ship for ship and the best ships to beat them with are Alpha Ships, Period 211k EHP is nothing to 25 Maels at optimal Range which is a Huge buffer BTW, Yes its safer with 50 and they could regroup on the fly.

            Point is 250k EHP and all the Logi in the world wont help a volley of 50 Maels. And they can eat alot of DMG Also and Hell they can hit out to 120 while still doubling the Napocs ALpha.

            Like Isaid it would be alot better fleets if they used Maels and alot cheaper and really would hurt PL in the Wallet. Just 1 fight where they kill you 2 ships to 1 you still win the ISK war by 1-200 mil a pop, Sorry but PL wouldnt keep that up for long, and there cap fleet? Let them come in and have all 100-200 Maels Insta Pop Carriers and Dreads that often times once a battle goes this one sided and one side will not use caps become faction fit.

            I remember when the NC lost all those titans to us and it really scared them to the point where they didnt use Caps anymore [AKA the beginning of the End] When that happend a ton of us started fitting faction fit Carriers because we knew they would hotdrop us.

            Maels that do Alpha would do the job 5x better than Tengu`s which are DPS machines trying to beat better DPS machines. 100mn AB was cool when you couldnt be tracked we used them for along time. But if you are tracked your 600 max DPS simply cant hang with a BS`s 750-850 DPS with guns alone not to mention the massive advantage of EC Drones and Normal Drones. A Set of Ec300`s an keep a Orbiting Tengu Jammed 15% taking there DPS even down further, and when you get 100 Napocs all with ECM Drones its a sight to see they can cripple all enemy logi etc.

            So how do you fight? Alpha, period, and its at 40% the Tengu`s cost and 20% after insurance, al while making the enemy suffer heavy losses in the first seconds, some of these fights I see have been only 4 Napoc losses, Hell that would be done in 30 Secs in my worst case scenario, and at best case in the first 20 Secs and at 40 Secs 8 Dead Not to mention 1 group would kill there entire logi chain.

            Imagine a group of 25 Maels with groups of 1400`s firing at your logi, They could at 80km away kill 2 Logi`s every 17 ish Secs. That would severely hurt PL as there Logi pilots are next to the best.

            Its a better solution period. Let the Tengu be the king at what it is, Ahac/Sniper killer with its Extra 15-20km than a Drake and its missile speed, and its 1/3rd more tank to survive for Reps. Hell hey are even great vs Drake fleets using there 1200 m/s speed to kill missile DMG but vs BS`s they were great fighting ships that couldnt track them…These can, and they out DPS and out tank them, so bypass there Tank by instapopping them and kill there DPS by insta popping them. And if you welp a fleet of Maels good lord its better than welping Gu`s

            September 4, 2012 at 11:18 pm
          4. TEST

            You're dumb… the moment you bring in massive amounts of alpha you will see us deploy 50+ tracking dreads and your alpha will go up in smoke before you pop the first dread… You talk loads of bullshit my friend if you even for a moment think that we can't take the loss of a Napoc fleet you're pretty dumb Foxcats are now reimbursable as well so check your facts. Besides what ever is thrown at us we will know it before it comes to a fight so we will have the perfect counter every single fight. Meta game wins every time.

            September 5, 2012 at 11:03 am
          5. Lugalbandak

            huh? i tought you testies only fly hero rifters&dictors for pl

            September 5, 2012 at 11:16 am
      2. Bob

        Effective due to threat or not, the fact remains they are effective. Here's to hoping test uses these to stand on their own 2 feet for once

        September 3, 2012 at 2:52 pm Reply
        1. Jason b

          Test will never stand on it's own.

          September 3, 2012 at 3:19 pm Reply
          1. Scar

            Name me one alliance in Eve that stands on its own and holds 0.0 space. Every alliance has allies and Test is no different. Wanting Test to fight completely by themselves is kinda retarded actually . . . exactly why would they ?

            September 3, 2012 at 4:47 pm
          2. Watcher

            The only prople saying test can stand on its own are test supporters… The same people who defend by saying well nobody stands on their own when someone points out that they cant.

            Test> finally we can stand on our own and be big boys!
            Everyone> test cant stand on its own
            Test> well duh stupid! Nobody in null stands alone!

            Do you see the tard in your comments?

            September 3, 2012 at 5:04 pm
          3. Marcus_McTavish

            Honestly, are you stupid?

            ROL is in fleets with AAA, so is Fail.

            HBC has Test PL and Tribal Band.

            Time to get over the fact that you might lose some battles and stop blaming others for that, its kind of pathetic.

            Just admit you lost a battle or two, no one would care, its the fact that you keep making up excuses, its really really getting sad.

            September 3, 2012 at 7:09 pm
          4. what?

            How much is of -A-'s sov is ROL paying for again?

            Joining a side in a fight is different from being financially(goons), strategically(PL), and militarily (both) taken care of.

            You might as well just admit your just a feeder alliance/meat shield

            September 4, 2012 at 8:48 am
          5. Truth

            About 89 systems last seen.

            I'm sure ROL loved it when they were ordered to give RA sov.

            September 5, 2012 at 7:52 pm
          6. Snarf

            What do you even do? Mine and rat? You talk big for a renter.

            September 4, 2012 at 3:40 pm
          7. Jason B

            there are plenty of alliance that don't fly with other alliance, they fly their own fleets, with their own FC's, and only ask for help when they get blobbed by coalitions of like 10-15 different alliance ie. goon+pets.

            September 3, 2012 at 6:07 pm
          8. Scar

            There are plenty of alliances that do their own roams with their own fcs and such sure. But as I said in my previous post . . . this isn't doing 0.0 station timers and such. People bring as many people as they can to make sure they keep their space. Everybody do roams and "goodfites" on their own but when it comes to holding space every space holding alliance in eve is in a coalition.

            September 3, 2012 at 6:26 pm
          9. BAMbam

            You can see why some people assume Test are still part of the CFC though right? They have the same space, next door to their old coalition, have strict guides on who/how they can shoot pet/renter wise, inevetibility of a GSF batphone etc Blued up and NIP'D

            September 3, 2012 at 6:54 pm
          10. Jason B

            The whole, "we're an independent coalition" statement is a joke, but that all goes w/o saying really.

            But to talk about what Scar said, yes there is alliances in the game that even during sov. war, even when they have blues on the field they run their own fleets. Hell there are eve alliances out there that reset blues after sov. wars, I know that last statement sounds insane to your avg. testie, or goon, but it really happens, and it actually spawns some small scale local PvP……. imagine that.

            September 3, 2012 at 7:51 pm
          11. Scar

            Yea . . . tons of alliances lead their own fleets doing sov warfare . . . if you read my comment more closely you'll see I didn't disagree with that.

            September 3, 2012 at 7:55 pm
          12. Jason B

            What you said… "There are plenty of alliances that do their own roams with their own fcs and such sure. But as I said in my previous post . . . this isn't doing 0.0 station timers and such."

            What I said "yes there is alliances in the game that even during sov. war, even when they have blues on the field they run their own fleets."

            September 3, 2012 at 9:21 pm
          13. Budge

            Test has been a goon pet forever, always took joint fleets under goon command, never planned a war, and only took part in wars under the guidance of GSF, Now under a banner of Independence to goons, which in and of itself is a ridiculous statement this dude, which I can only assume is some Test fag, is claiming they are standing on there own? well PL FC's lead them, well PL leadership does all the strategic planning, well PL makes fleet comps for them to fly, well GSF pays their sov. bills.

            I'm not sure if this test dude is just trying troll, or if he/she is really that delusional.

            September 3, 2012 at 9:42 pm
          14. passer by

            Where did you get your info on the HBC internal structure i would like to read it too.

            From an outside position looking in I can see that it looks like test can't do anything alone, but without proof i can't make that claim. From what I have seen of test first hand i can say that they are capable of doing it alone.

            But like someone said above why should they

            September 4, 2012 at 8:32 pm
          15. Grunt just like yoy

            It's called the meta game.

            September 4, 2012 at 8:53 pm
          16. Scar

            Yea . . . I can see why people assume that Test are part of the CFC still . . . I won't disagree with that. We all know that if something actually went down big time down south like Test/PL getting Super Caps trapped a CFC fleet would be on the way faster than a goonswarm member will make a bad post.

            September 3, 2012 at 7:58 pm
          17. BntyHunter

            Lol everyone does not do there own Roams :) GSF really cant do anything by themselves…There motto really is Gangbang=BestBang

            But when it comes to SOV most bring as many as they can =True

            GSF just acts like every battle=Sov battle.

            September 4, 2012 at 10:50 pm
          18. BntyHunter

            Not all ALli`s have 5k Members.

            PL has 1300ish
            NCDOT 1500ish

            These 2 are Titans in Eve nw imagine them at 5k, no they would not need ALlies at all.

            But in regards to NAPOCS, these where used long ago, They are just Super Hellcats, and they can be countered very very nicely just like ABBY fleets are by Alpha Fleets esp at there cost as mentioned. Given even numbers and a split up group, lets say groups of 25 They can insta pop the NAPOC`s in 1 volley each, while only sacrificing Mael`s which are heavily insured or Tornados which can kite Them still even at 100km.

            If I were the opposing side I would run groups of 25 each targeting there own targets and land right 30km where your 1400`s do 12k Alpha, You are alot faster and literally half as cheap upfront with half of the ship insured.

            Maels in groups of 15 will kill for sure a NAPOC at optimal with closest Ammo and out at say 100km 25 can Pop them.

            There is also another theory that using 1200mm`s wastest less overkill so you can use larger groups like say 50 and insta pop a NAPOC but instead of waiting the 15-17 secs you wait 12ish, This means every 12 Secs 2 NAPOC`s die no matter how many REPS they have on them. At that point say they kill you 1v1 you will win in cost by 2/3rds and might even insta pop some carriers given your numbers.

            On the other hand there Alpha at 6k max HAS TO SHOOT 1 Target, So you get 50% of the Fleet wasting a Volley. That was always the problem with Arty is everyone shooting at a target who would have died with half the shots and then the rythm of the Alpha getting off.

            So breaking off into groups of Arty will eliminate this threat while being able to suicide an entire fleet because dollars to doughnuts at 15-20 losses of ther NAPOC`s they will disengage and even out numbered 2:1 you can welp a fleet and still make them lose more.

            Well co-originated Maels can beat this fleet but it has to be done extremely well, and im affraid the only few entities in the game that can do it are PL and DotBros and Pl is flying the NAPOC`s and DOBROS are being outnumbered 5-10:1 and fighting Drakes.

            September 3, 2012 at 8:52 pm
          19. -a-

            Of course PL and NCdot fight with allies you illiterate fuckstick

            September 4, 2012 at 10:29 pm
          20. BntyHunter

            Alli`s dont always bring your exact ship types.

            And my point was for a group like NCDOT working with Allies to match GSF`s 9k Members makes sense, but a group like Test with 5k Members who already has more flyers than there enemy, Sorry but there is no excuse that means they really cant stand on there own.

            NCDOT adds alli`s to balance numbers, GSF+Test add alli`s to outnumber there enemies/Blob them 4:1

            Also Even all of NCDOT`s Alli`s dont match just GSF`s Numbers you Twat. Also GSF`s Smallest ALli`s in numbers match NCDOT`s size and they have 15+.

            Pl Does fly with Test now [I have no Idea why] but once more they dont depend on them for anything more than Meat for the grinder with a few Napocs and alot of Drakes.

            Like I said most Alli`s do not have the luxury of having 5k+ Members. If you disagree with that your nuts.

            September 4, 2012 at 10:47 pm
          21. Inconceivable Truth

            TEST with 5k members? You need to get with the times. They currently have 8641 members. Goons currently have 9265. Everyone in the galaxy knows that even though they are not currently basing out of the same area, that if either one gets into trouble the other one will come running to save them.

            Toss in the fact that TEST is just as much of PL's pet as Goons and well, you already have a massive coalition. Although PL is not blue to goons, they have been known to set temporary standings for a rape fest.

            Also don't forget about the rest of the CFC made up of other tons of bads like Razor and such. They are all blue to each other. This puts their numbers well over 60 thousand. 60,000. SIXTY THOUSAND!

            Make no mistake, soon all of null will be one giant reach around.

            September 5, 2012 at 10:04 am
          22. Hidden in Shadows

            Make no mistake? Dude. Look at Band of Brothers. Look at the original RedSwarm Federation. Look at the Northern Coalition (the real coalition). Look at Lotka Volterra. Look at Ascendant Frontier. Look at the Drone Russian Federation. Look at IT Alliance. Look at Atlas Alliance.
            What I am trying to say is, mistakes will DEFINITELY be made. Everyone does. It doesn't depend on how big the mistake is, the real killer is how the enemy reacts.
            Look at BOB. Early 2009 they were safe in their regions of Delve, Querious and Period Basis. But once it 'disbanded', BOB spent a few days just denieing reality, while the RSF and NC was quick to pounce on the 3 new regions offered to them.
            So…CFC will never win. Neither will SoCo. Neither will DOTBros. No one – I REPEAT, NO ONE – will completely win.

            September 5, 2012 at 10:38 am
          23. tuga

            The bigger they are the bigger is the fall.
            If u read a bit of human history you will see that all empires fall its Just a matter of time son, and most of the times is due to greed and arrogance

            September 5, 2012 at 1:04 pm
      3. supers tanking

        Effectively this fleet doctrine uses 'supers tank', because of the real or perceived threat that any type of escalation with anything bigger then cruiser or BC size will get hotdropped (BS fleet by blapping dreads, blap dreads by supers). In that regard -A- is not in an envious position since whatever kind of escalation they do PL drops dreads/carriers/supers. I guess they'll have to be inventive…

        September 3, 2012 at 3:53 pm Reply
  2. ehp

    Rooks and Kings have been flying big navpoc fleets for a long time and its very effective – they use them to hit cfc shield at range and its crazy hard to instapop that ehp. 170k seems really low you need to check your eft – it should be 300+

    pricey but good ship

    September 3, 2012 at 8:38 am Reply
    1. hirrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

      CVA used navypoc's before RnK did jsut throwing that out there

      September 3, 2012 at 12:55 pm Reply
      1. Turplemanny

        But we all know that CVA are circlejerking wizard robe wearing role players who suck moose dick at PvP and they know it. They excell at LvP, local vs player

        September 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm Reply
      2. Bilbo

        I don't think CVA have ever used triage navpoc fleets, at least not for a purpose that shows on killboards.

        Which raises the question, why are CVA NOT FLYING NAVPOCS? dont they worship the amarr queen or something?

        their killboard is full of canes and drake gangs. And even minmatar filth. This is unacceptable.

        September 3, 2012 at 2:49 pm Reply
    2. Oppons

      Nice to see PL going back to school and learning a good anti blob trick off RnK, fantastic ship with around 300k ehp after bonuses

      September 3, 2012 at 2:49 pm Reply
    3. Bob

      Let's not forget that these things are easy to get/ cheaper than eve kill says thanks to the fw LP cartels

      September 3, 2012 at 2:58 pm Reply
  3. Observer

    You forgot to mention that these ships are always used with triage carriers, which PL deploys without fear since no one can go versus their cap/super fleet. Furthermore, if there is a smallest chance Navy Apocs can be killed, PL instantly deploys slowcat carrier fleet as well.

    Any BS fleet can hold its own with triage support against delayed dps hostile fleet (missile boats). The real advantage of this ships is its better tracking than Rokhs/Maels and optimal range bonus they have.

    However, any other BS fleet setup can brawl with Navy Apocs just as with any other hostile BS fleet setup, but you can not use high signature ships against PL cuz they instantly drops blap dreads which you also can not counter because of their cap/super fleet.

    Therefore, concept of this fleet is to leverage supercapital advantage while having better tracking and higher optimal range than previous shield BS fleet utilized.

    September 3, 2012 at 9:10 am Reply
    1. Bob

      They really are perfect for PL thanks to the current cap power balance. Nice that they actually paid enough attention to the losec guys who came up with this concept because pl will be hard to beat with it

      September 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm Reply
    2. Scar

      I actually believe that -A- has about the same size Super Cap fleet as PL it's just that they are much less willing to use it after the recent massacre. Remember -A-'s super fleet in the final real battle against Red Alliance ? Even NC. combined with PL were not willing to risk dropping against them.

      September 3, 2012 at 5:02 pm Reply
      1. Observer

        Well -A- can have the same size SC fleet as LP, but they do not have the same size SC fleet as Goons and all their pets (PL and TEST included) have – cuz that is exactlly what -A- would face in a potential SC brawl.

        September 3, 2012 at 5:46 pm Reply
      2. Bob

        Doesn't matter if they have the same number of caps if they don't have the balls to field them

        September 4, 2012 at 12:30 am Reply
  4. Testie maggot

    Triple shit are completely retarded and have lost the ISK war against these Navy Apoc's. AAA won't commit what it will take to kill one of these fleets. Yes, the most effective way would be to deploy 50 to 60 suicide bombers against the things, but AAA is to concerned about their stats. They are truly retarded and PL just keeps proving that time and time again.

    Now, let's see if PL has the balls to actually deploy these things into Catch.

    September 3, 2012 at 9:33 am Reply
    1. Torulv

      Why should PL go to Catch ?
      Its nothing there

      September 3, 2012 at 10:54 am Reply
      1. Asheren

        Indeed it would create more problems to already overextended TEST than its worth. There is no one that could hold it for them. Tribals are geting raped by stainwagon for trying to encroach on their turf. All out invasion on catch might cause SW to commit on -A- side. There is also CVA to consider who might decide its better to fight on -A- side to mantain current status of providence than to risk having mood swings prone TEST next door.

        September 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm Reply
        1. lol

          whats a stainwagon?

          September 4, 2012 at 8:15 am Reply
          1. Asheren

            C0ven, Romanian Legion and Stainempire pretty much those days. They are mere shadows of former self but still could propably bring about 100 pilots. What would be more important is their spy network and FCs.

            September 4, 2012 at 10:06 am
          2. SWpilot

            -a- royally hosed Stainwagon over (what's left of it). They won't be coming to -a-'s aid anytime soon. It's more likely they'll stay out of the fight and just roam PB like they are now, or they'd actually come in on Test and PL's side.

            100 pilots is a little optimistic too, Romanian Legion is tiny now, and C0ven and SE don't really have a significant pilot count outside of EUTZ, you're talking 50 guys during USTZ when you'd need them.

            September 5, 2012 at 5:44 am
    2. Guest

      Someone check my eye sight, that does say Catch doesn't it?

      September 3, 2012 at 4:10 pm Reply
  5. gizzy

    if you play with eft, with a legion giving bonus's you get 253k ehp, 608 dps with max skills with no implants/boosters

    September 3, 2012 at 9:59 am Reply
    1. M1k3y

      Default ammo is scorch since they are designed to counter the Thundercat's range, so 400 DPS it is.

      September 3, 2012 at 11:17 am Reply
      1. gizzy

        well, seeing as all 3 killmails ive seen they used conflag, i dunno then.

        September 3, 2012 at 5:11 pm Reply
        1. Bob

          It's the joy of flying amarr- you can swap crystals instantly for whatever range you need

          September 4, 2012 at 2:26 pm Reply
      2. Boogie_Jones

        400 dps and a good rof are issues for the relatively small buffer the -A- tengus run.

        September 3, 2012 at 5:27 pm Reply
  6. Sync Vir

    Is it 2010? Cause that's when Npoc fleets started for me. Also, real men fly Arty Machs in Npoc fleets. Fuck Uniform, Fly Style.

    September 3, 2012 at 11:18 am Reply
    1. :)d

      why fly arty when you can have 7+126km with autocannons :)

      September 3, 2012 at 8:10 pm Reply
  7. Wey'oun

    Its worth pointing out that Drunk 'n' Disorderly and RnK have both been using this fleet comp for 6+ months. PL didnt come up with anything original here.

    September 3, 2012 at 12:46 pm Reply
    1. nulab

      Confirming that this isn't new, Lowsec alliances have been using them for a long time.

      We just aren't kewl enough to be allowed to call them cats.

      September 3, 2012 at 12:55 pm Reply
      1. nerd

        a shiptype isnt a fleet composition…

        September 3, 2012 at 8:08 pm Reply
    2. Jason b

      Atleast they didn't do something retarded again like call a standard pulse abbadon a "Hellcat", and then every retard in every retarded alliance wanted to fly Hellcats not b/c it would counter the enemy they were fighting, but b/c they liked the name Hellcat.

      September 3, 2012 at 3:37 pm Reply
  8. HBC Member

    Here is a video i found of HBC Foxcat fleet absolutely obliterating SoCos tengu fleet. It took place in N-M1A3. Something like 40-50 tegnus killed, and i think they said 1 or 2 navpocs died due to dcs.

    September 3, 2012 at 3:30 pm Reply
  9. Watcher

    Well there's no denying that thesethings are effective, but two points: saying the PL came up with the foxcats is like saying CVA invented the hellcat. Also the strength of this doctrine is that PL alts sit in carriers in case counters show up, and then in supers in case more counters show up.

    Its like a guy calling himself an ultimate street fighter when he picks fights with loners with 12 armed bodyguards standing beside im in case things go awry. Nobody's saying youre BAD or WRONG, just that you forfeit your right to call yourself elite

    Thats the reason theyre afraid to take them into catch (aside from jumping into 4-07 and hugging the gate just long enough to kill an fc before splitting again and chestbearing about it, or the "who cares about catch" rhetoric we hear now, after weeks and weeks of claiming they were going to push our shit into stain until we disbanded… You know, before they failed to take a single -a- system)

    September 3, 2012 at 5:22 pm Reply
    1. lmao

      Your right, your 100mn kiting tengus, incapable of delivering dps, holding anything down or achieving any strategic objective had no right to be countered.

      September 3, 2012 at 8:06 pm Reply
      1. Watcher

        i think you forgot the part where you read my post first before making asinine comments.

        September 6, 2012 at 12:04 am Reply
        1. honeyBadgerIsCOOOL

          well -A- have been trying to take 49- for the last 9 weeks… and have failed more then the HBC has…

          September 7, 2012 at 6:03 am Reply
  10. ROL Grunt

    I donçt know if they can be considered exactly a "counter" for the Tengus.

    First, another great article, congratulations !

    They´re, obviusly, MUCH more effective then a blob of drakes.. But, after what hapenned thuis sunday, is clear that our tengus CAN survive this nem composition. We only needs more logis, or in other words, a better logi:tengus ratio to survive. A corpmate had their shield lowered to 10% two times during the fight and, booth times, logies repaired him back to fulll. But, in the third time, either to a lag, or to the fact we lost some logies, he was killed.

    In the other hand, if it´spossible to stay alive, we can´t kill those faction bs´s as fast as other fleets and, if triage carriers are dropped, we probably can´t kill at all.

    Fortunally we saw just some of those fleet. I wonder if void bombs can be a good response to this.

    Good hunt..ROL Grunt

    September 3, 2012 at 5:29 pm Reply

      Each fleet depends on effective logistics. Its unfortunate however that the tengu logistics are much more vulnerable to alpha strikes than say a triage carrier.

      I'd like to see how this setup can be used offensively. So far I've seen them used in a defensive capacity which, I must say, are very impressive in not being moved from their line.

      However, can they push that line forward in the face of such a maneuverable enemy fleet?

      As it stands, I think the battling parties in the south have found a good balance to each other's srategies creating a stalemate. PERSERVERENCE will win this conflict IMO.

      September 3, 2012 at 6:01 pm Reply
      1. ROL Grunt

        Good point. Now that you mentioned it, a 200 man fleet, with triage and navy apocs blueballed our fleet tengu some days ago, since we already have the gate. They didn~t jumped on us, since we were in such a close range from gate that they couldn´t tracks us.

        In the other hand, Sunday was excatly the oposite…we were short in logistics and WE jumped on then….

        So it´s a question of who controls the field first.

        But i greatly agree with with -A- FC…this is the most fun i had fromeve since the old NC days, fighting over O2O…im learning new tricks, remembering old ones, killing ships, losing ships, everyday, all day long ! You have every frakking format, from big old cta´s to small gang and even solo !

        Sure, i want to win and smach testies and pl, but i have to admit, this stalemate is as fun as it can gets !

        Thans, -A- and ROL, for so much fun. I could say thanks to testies too, but they have too much trash talking to deserve it….and PL…welll, it´s PL.

        Good hunt.

        ROL Grunt

        September 3, 2012 at 9:02 pm Reply
        1. please

          PLEASE try and out track napocs.

          please try.

          September 3, 2012 at 11:37 pm Reply
        2. Jimney Cricket

          SoCo is afraid to brawl. They need to be in a cyno jammed system to do anything. Afraid they are.

          September 4, 2012 at 1:24 am Reply
    2. Jimney Cricket

      Coming from a ROL Grunt, you sure know a lot and know everything.. Foxcats own, tengus blow, and unless you are HBC, go suck a big fat dick, you terrible pilots, and should bio mass your toons.

      September 3, 2012 at 10:56 pm Reply
  11. a point to be made.

    It is worth mentioning that the Navy Apoc fleet doctrine has been used for many months by RnK and in reality they created it, PL has merely borrowed it and adjustes it.

    I wondered how long it would be before a post appeared on EN24 claiming PL had created the Navy Apoc doctrine.

    September 3, 2012 at 5:44 pm Reply
    1. Mik kyo

      Your right Navy Apocs have been used for a long while by RnK, but this doesn't mean we borrowed it from them.
      We needed a new turret fleet that had the range AND the tracking to kill 100mn tengus at 110km (a pretty dumb and niche scenario) and also have enough hitpoints to withstand a decent amount of bombers/alpha fleet.
      There are four obvious good options and napocs is the one we chose.
      If it helps you to say we copied someone, then we copied CVA's pulsepocs that massacred our armor hac fleets, this concept is older than RnK is as an alliance. Not to mention that RnK's fleet composition in no way scales up to a foxcat fleet, they are considerably different in both composition and their usage.

      September 3, 2012 at 8:03 pm Reply
  12. I love Jesus

    Sorry, but there is just no fucking way that fit is correct if TEST use those against kinetic spewing tengus. Look at that gaping kinetic resist hole.

    Seriously, at least get the fit right!

    September 3, 2012 at 9:20 pm Reply
  13. HAHA

    GUESS WHAT, -A- is shit, and so is all of thier pets, ROL RA and FAIL.. Thanks for padding my kb.

    September 4, 2012 at 1:28 am Reply
  14. Random Miner

    love it, thanks for another informative article!

    September 4, 2012 at 10:34 am Reply
  15. Reality Check

    OP needs a reality check on where the Thundercats idea came from. PL? Shyea right. Anyone else remember the much laughed about 'Tuffcats'?

    September 4, 2012 at 3:56 pm Reply
    1. Ex-IRC

      You need to think back a bit more and you'll realize "Tuffcats" were already very much in use when that was posted. IRC was trying to play "catch-up." I should know, I was there. That idea was very much laughed at within IRC. Because, let's face it, IRC pilots are (generally) poor. Not many people had the isk or SPs to fly those ships correctly in a major fleet engagement. That post was aimed at small gang skirmishes.

      September 5, 2012 at 12:11 am Reply
    2. suddenly

      PL started using thundercats against NC, when rus/raiden/wn was hitting vale. 7-8 months before that article.

      September 5, 2012 at 6:22 pm Reply
  16. -A- CF

    thats a lot of words to say "im mad that ive been PL's bitch for three years"

    September 4, 2012 at 4:03 am Reply
  17. eve in a nutshell

    TLDR: What is a fair fight? Poor planning…

    September 4, 2012 at 12:34 pm Reply

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