Gevlon Globbin is famous in the Word of Warcraft circle for having mastered the “gold-cap” concept. His Eve journey show a very interesting “outside the box” approach to the game, PVE and the trade hubs, reason for which we invite you to pay a visit to his blog.

Greedy Goblin: AfterTech – Alliance Budgets

Tech alliances were considered “dirty rich” despite their income wasn’t that high. I mean the whole CFC-HB made about 1T/month which is just 20x bigger than my individual income. However it was nearly 1T/month more than the non-tech alliances. It was enough to not only pay for sov bills but also have a reimbursement policy. Those who lost a doctrine ship in fleet action got the cost back, being able to buy a new ship for free. This was a large bonus as it allowed casual PvP-ers to join. They could fly in the fleets with no additional costs. Without reimbursement the pilot must grind enough ISK to get ships and be motivated enough to fly it in battles where losing it has huge risks. The reimbursed fleets shown clear and obvious superiority in numbers over non-reimbursed ones.

Now what? With the recent Tech changes the Tech alliances lost their former financial superiority. Look at this TEST accounting sheet: 40% of their income (107B/month) is coming from Tech. In February it was 73%. No wonder they are losing 49B/month due to increased sov costs and increased reimbursements from the intensive battles.

How can an alliance get money from the post-tech era to be able to upkeep reimbursements which is more or less the IWIN button in EVE sov wars? Let’s dig that sheet more. TEST has income from other moons too, as non-Tech moons also have minerals that sell for some price. Those provide 62B. They get 37B from station and PoCo taxes (broker fees, PI, manufacturing…) 53B from taxing bounties and such. Again, not as chest-beating but to show how small the budget of the largest alliance is: these numbers are all in the same range as my personal 40-50B/month income. Well, they could increase bounty taxes but the low number shows exactly that few people gather bounties and higher taxing may further decrease their number. They could increase broker fees but those can easily be dodged by direct trading or not trading at all but hauling to highsec and sell there.

There are two ways out of this for those alliances that want to upkeep reimbursement in the post-tech era: one is some form of VIP-membership that costs significant ISK/month for benefits. Such system would lure IRL rich people (who convert PLEX) and highsec industrialists into nullsec. Having just a few dozens of them would solve the income problems of the alliances. However when I had a similiar idea, it failed badly, exactly because of lack of benefits. Why should anyone pay for something that can be gained for free? If I wanted to join TEST I could just start a reddit account, post some, start a new account unrelated to my blog and could join. As there is no demanded minimal contribution (in WoW it’s common to demand 3*4 hours/week attendance or kick), there is little room to give VIP benefits. The only way to implement something like that is first to make a non-VIP baseline with demands like 3 fleets/week mandatory, one of them is alarm clock, and then allow to skip it by payment. Membership payments could also work in “elite” alliances (like PL) where people want to join for prestige.

The other one is supporting and taxing nullsec PvE. It means that creating mining and ratting fleets with protection and instant mineral/loot buyouts to make it profitable for PvE players despite the taxing. I mean if you just tax PvE without providing superior support, the PvE players just go away to other, cheaper alliances or to their highsec alts. This can somewhat decreased by PR and propaganda, giving respect and cheers to the alliance PvE players, so they prefer to stay in the alliance rather than go somewhere for higher profit but being called “lol carebears”. Such PvE activity can be fostered by dedicated PvE corps where the similar-minded members can easily find groups and exchange information. Organization is needed for taxing mining as you can’t set mining taxes the same way as bounty taxes. You must be there in the mining fleet to evaluate how much minerals were gained to calculate the tax.

Now let me suggest an advanced way that cuts out the administration overhead from PvE fleets: ratting/mining license instead of tax. Tax is a kind of punishment for doing the activity. You rat 2x more, you pay 2x more. When you make the decision to log your ratter or not, the tax says “don’t”. This is fine with the casual PvE players (who are actually PvP-ers earning ISK on the side) but more serious PvE players (who want to earn serious ISK) are scared off by taxing and the administrative overhead. For them it would be much more tempting to pay for a license once a month and then do PvE tax and administration free.

Anyway, in the post-Tech era the alliance budgets must be filled by members doing PvE. One way or another the PvE (or PLEX-converter) players must be lured into the alliances because without them even the sov costs would be problematic, not to mention the reimbursements.

PS: I reworked the blog structure, making it easier to find old but relevant posts. Read the about page

– Gevlon Goblin

Wednesday morning report: 141.6B (which is 40% of the whole TEST asset) (3.5 spent on main accounts, 2.4 spent on Logi/Carrier, 2.2 on Ragnarok, 1.6 on Rorqual, 1.4 on Nyx, 1.8 on Avatar, 2.6 received as gift)

50 Comments

  1. I agree

    What he said ^^^

    August 15, 2012 at 6:40 am Reply
  2. testarestupid

    Thank god, and I still think its too much for doing nothing. (Please dont tell me ooo we got to maintain a pos, whooppeee) I am hoping tech will come down even more and get ship/mod prices back to a normal price instead of the stupidly high prices they are now.

    Alliances shouldnt be holding space they cant afford simple as. Test do not HAVE TO own all the space they have, they CHOOSE to. Just like any other alliance. Its also wrong that alliances have totally risk free pvp, the should suffer the consequences of battle and war. That way things will change more quickly and we shall see how many survive.

    Test could instead of trying to scam people all the time, is rental. I hate rental i think this shouldnt be allowed, but ergo it is. They could make billions renting out delve and querious. But they just choose to scam people for a billion here and there, and get a bad name. These people who think this makes business sense are totally totally dumb! There accountant should be saying, want isk,, rent.
    people would pay through the nose for it. I mean for shitty systems people like solar charge around a billion a month (which is a joke) but hey ho.

    Think about it test, stopping scamming people use your common sense and rent (legit) not create a scamming website!

    August 15, 2012 at 6:56 am Reply
    1. lol

      im betting that Test will drop sov in either Fountain or in Delve/Q/PB
      basicly by only holding important system they should teoreticly be able to keep the sov
      and sure SOCO or anyone else will be able to steal the none vital system but as long as you keep the stations and key systems they could have a good buffert and stay in Fountain by them self

      August 15, 2012 at 7:40 am Reply
      1. testarestupid

        Maybe, but if they used their heads they could make money renti. The problem is some renting alliances wont allow them to get involved in fights? why i have no clue its dumb. However if test used their brains a bit they could rent (make a ton load of isk c trillion a month in rent perhaps) and by allowing more of these in fleets could add more to the defense of the regions they own.
        Another thing alliances are being stupid at is their damn egos, with these silly renter alliances like AAA citizens, northern assciates, solar citizens etc. So they look and feel more important! Look allow alliances, corps to have the sov and yes PAY for it. so this way you get the rental income and NO SOV holding bills to pay! and people who take the stations, sov will have more desire to keep it and protect it.

        Test if you need help managing this, please get in touch :)

        August 15, 2012 at 8:03 am Reply
      2. whatever

        they're probably looking to offload more sov to pets as they did with Tribal Band in Period Basis, Fountain is relatively safe now (memory of Godfathers being shown their place is still fresh, without an ally in delve they are annoying but no sov threat) and large parts of it could probably be handed off to a pet without issues.
        However, grooming new pets to the point where they can hold sov takes time :/

        Kicking out ESG, -TF-, BDEAL, … definetely had its price (and .EXE will probably drop their Fountain sov at some point as they don't really seem to use it)

        August 15, 2012 at 8:53 am Reply
      3. Akrasjel Lanate

        Or grant some of it to there pets

        August 15, 2012 at 10:48 am Reply
    2. Hoooooboy

      Sounds like someone got scammed…

      August 15, 2012 at 8:03 am Reply
  3. ilikeponies

    TEST has slightly less members than GSF and has more than double their sov count. It's not surprising their sov bill is becoming ridiculous. Not to mention the huge fights they've had to have with -A- just to "have fun" as they claim.

    Time to let go of their ego and gave large chunks of those sov systems they own to renters :)

    August 15, 2012 at 6:56 am Reply
    1. The Observer

      And immediately have those renters collapse because THUNDERDOME

      August 15, 2012 at 8:14 am Reply
      1. John Douche

        +9000 because THUNDERDOME

        August 15, 2012 at 9:00 am Reply
    2. Peggy from prime

      And who shall rent? Anyone moving into these recently acquired systems would be ground down in short order by -A- . Ask the long list of renters that tried to rent from DRF after -A- was pushed into stain. It was a bloodbath for them. TEST has painted itself into a corner.

      Changes made to mining ships have already sent ice materials plummeting which will create downward pressure on POS fuel prices, making cost of alchemy even lower – the only bottleneck will occur at the PI stage and that's easily overcome. I expect tech to further decline as more alchemy setups come on line. When you consider the risk/cost of moving product from highsec to 0.0 in either t2 ships or the materials associated with building them – I would expect to see more alliance alchemy "home stills" running. This should reduce demand for tech in the market –

      TLDR – if your sitting on a fuckton of tech, dump it.

      August 15, 2012 at 3:03 pm Reply
  4. Sold

    Confirming that alliances had no SRP or sov bills before tech bottleneck. Or neo bottleneck. Or moons at all.

    August 15, 2012 at 8:09 am Reply
  5. LOL.

    lol, the goblin back on en24.. guess after his latest failures he lost too many readers on his own blog.

    also the numbers are off, the tech price has not even stabilized yet, and moon mining has still a higher efficiency than alchemy.

    PS: recommendation, read how bitter the goblin got after being rejected by several alliances, and now hes trying to paint the picture that everyone was stupid for rejecting him =)

    August 15, 2012 at 8:10 am Reply
    1. He's doing pretty good afaik, for this article he reported on the consequences of the Tech crash and that deserves syndication.

      August 15, 2012 at 8:29 am Reply
      1. LOL.

        its completely speculative using after-patch instability as basis.

        August 15, 2012 at 8:36 am Reply
      2. Uhh idiots again

        Yeah I do agree that goblin is doing well here. I like his fresh perspectives.

        August 15, 2012 at 10:23 am Reply
      3. Trolls > Goblins

        I don't think the journalism (well, excluding the "digging" bit) is necessarily bad, but he's still a young character in the game and that clearly shows when he tries to dig into larger topics like this one (trying to analyze alliance behaviour). I'd advice him to not bite off too much until he has a better understanding of the game as a whole. Much of what comes up in the article is either already established or impractical due to established routines.

        His suggestion at the end serve a good example. "Taxing per license" already exist. That's how most renter agreements tend to function, and as renters or renter-wings already exist it becomes somewhat amusing to see him suggest licensing for "elite groups" or presume a cost-effect SRP-reliant group would see any value in bloat for ISK over bloat to WIN.

        August 15, 2012 at 2:24 pm Reply
      4. neutral observer

        " And ships should be earn'd wtf?"

        Lazy free ship wanting spergelord detected!

        August 15, 2012 at 2:29 pm Reply
      5. crazy hun

        That guy is an idiot. His eve experience limited to stations. A few days ago he wrote on a hungarian MMO site a hate article about how much EVE is shit compared to wow… He lost all credibility in the hun community's eyes. If I would translate that aticle to english for you probably you wouldn't bother with that guy anymore (I just don't to want to spend any time more to read that article again also my english sucks).

        OK maybe he is competent in market manipulations but he have no perspective about EVE as a whole at all. At least a right one.

        August 15, 2012 at 2:43 pm Reply
        1. vvv

          Link?

          August 15, 2012 at 5:03 pm Reply
        2. indy

          nice damage control bees 😉 big fan of your propaganda :*

          August 15, 2012 at 6:28 pm Reply
          1. crazy hun

            Talking about propaganda: I linked the article but the comment wasn't approved by the admins…

            August 15, 2012 at 8:22 pm
      6. The Martini

        Then you do not know much frankly and possibly stare too much on this nerd's pile of ISKs.

        0.0 alliances not only make ISKs, they destroy it. Their goal is it not to make as much ISKs as somehow possible. Once this Jita nerd actually starts burning ISKs may he start comparing himself to 0.0 alliances.

        Until then is his report not much more than the bitching of a lonely nerd. 0.0 alliances have a strong, if not very strong focus on PvP and if one wants to include their activity in spread sheets and ISK charts, then one needs to look at their quality as ISK sinks before all else and not at how much ISKs they make. The best alliance is the one which never needs new ships, but only kills. This is practically impossible, but sitting at Jita and making only ISKs without ever losing a ship is well possible and your reporter comes across as just that. This does not strike you as broken? You still want to say that he is doing "pretty good"?

        Fact is your Jita nerd did not report a damn new thing. He only repeated what we already know: CFC own Tech, tech gets nerf, CFC makes less ISK. The rest of his report is bloated shit from the view of some lonely nerd, who does not know what it is actually important for 0.0 and then goes on to lecture his readers on how the CFC have to compensate for their loss in income entirely from his nerdy view.

        I bet the CFC still own a lot of ISKs or have invested it into a bigger cap fleet. Now the Tech nerf will not only bring the Tech price down, but it will likely bring a deflation of all prices. If the CFC still own trillions of ISKs will it only buy them more the longer the deflation lasts. And if they have used it to increased their cap ship numbers then it only depends on how well they can put them to use.

        Some lonely Jita nerd talking about the finances of 0.0 alliances is a useless as an 0.0 FC talking about Jita prices going up and down.

        August 15, 2012 at 3:12 pm Reply
        1. Jason

          You seem to not know the difference between an isk sink and a materials sink.

          August 15, 2012 at 5:04 pm Reply
          1. The Martini

            No, I do. I only do not care enough about it to go into full detail here like a raging nerd. There are not just sinks and wells, but there layers of them. For 0.0 alliances is it unimportant if their ISKs comes from bounties or from other players, or of the ISKs disappear in sov bills or the wallets of outside players. They have their own logic of sinks and wells, which sits on top of the game mechanic's sinks and wells and which has got its own semantic.

            August 15, 2012 at 5:50 pm
      7. Atacdad

        I see some value in his article, thanks for posting it.
        The TL;DR: if you ignore the TEST specific crap, GG has the kernel of what might be a good idea.

        I've seen one corp get nullsec mining right. The Black Aces (81Div) had a couple of systems in Impass when they were part of -A-. They set up a corp as a mining division (Black Aces Mining Division) and set up a VIP-like arrangement. The rules were simple, $25M/month per toon and all ore had to be refined in their station, which had a 10% tax. For services, the corp would buy your minerals for a reasonable rate (about Jita – 10%, which if you're counting, means you were getting about 80% yield) but did not insist on it, provided perfect Orca boosts for a mining fleet as often as possible (not guaranteed, but pretty often), provided for defense(ntel channels, jump bridge routes from -A-, and a response fleet). This was one corp in one system; it seems reasonable that the concept could expand to an alliance.
        Black Aces left -A- a month or two ago and have formed the "Against All Anomolies" alliance and set up shop in Kalevala Expanse. It remains to be seen if they will restart their mining arrangement.

        August 15, 2012 at 3:59 pm Reply
  6. neutral observer

    You make 40-50 bil a month?
    Yet you still fail to realize that when tech is nerfed, prices of ships will start dropping.
    Wich basically means, people rat for an hour and they can easy afford a new bc or whatever.
    Also this ratting should generate some income for alliance for paying sov bills.
    Reimbursments are overrated, people should have to work for their ships and not take it for granted.

    If you were really that good at making isk, you would realize, that when income drops, prices drop!
    Nice try trying to scare cfc members for the future tho!

    August 15, 2012 at 8:13 am Reply
    1. shiwaz

      Quote: "people should have to work for their ships and not take it for granted"

      This guy gets it…

      August 15, 2012 at 9:00 am Reply
      1. Akrasjel Lanate

        Yes

        August 15, 2012 at 10:44 am Reply
    2. Alvus Parasite

      Tech only effects tech 2 ships though. Tech 1 BCs won't change with the tech nerf, except maybe fitting would become slightly cheaper. Tech 2 fittings are almost never the main cost of a new ship

      August 15, 2012 at 9:29 am Reply
      1. whatever

        depends… cheap technetium also means cheap t2 hulls – and this will cause some people who would have to fly bcs at 220k ISK pu Tech to fly HACs instead, reducing the demand for t1 bcs.
        that's the substitution effect.

        in addition you have a wealth effect which may go either way

        August 15, 2012 at 6:07 pm Reply
        1. Messina

          Tech1 ships are not really effected by supply and demand really, minerals are, and can effect the prices of tech1 ships. Tech2 hulls on the other hand are effected by supply and demand simply b/c the BPC need to be invented, and there is a limited amount on the market at any given time b/c of demand, this is of course on top of moon mineral supply and demand. Well if there is money to be made on canes for instance, someone will buy the BPO, and build them.

          August 15, 2012 at 10:48 pm Reply
    3. But the Tech price drop affects everyone so your enemies can also afford the same BC so you lose yours more often. The Tech alliances lost their advantage.

      August 15, 2012 at 9:50 am Reply
    4. Vanquisher

      I wish you good luck in that model. After few weeks your alliance fleet would be like 50 man. Bloob era battles are more or less meatgrinders with logistic pilots losing their ships like on every cta. Around 220 m per fited scimitar with lets say up to 4 lost per week. 4h-5h of grinding anoms to replace one lost scimitar thats 20h a week to keep up. CTA last 2-5h sometimes more. Thats another 20h a week. 40h online to be able to fight and replace ships. 6h a day of just playing eve every day. That would be serious cease of nolife.

      August 15, 2012 at 5:43 pm Reply
      1. Messina

        There are tons of alliance in nullsec that don't have reimbursement programs, you have just been spoiled and don't even know it.

        August 15, 2012 at 8:51 pm Reply
      2. You sir are a idiot.

        August 15, 2012 at 10:05 pm Reply
  7. Gunny

    Good luck finding an alliance strong enough to rent plus hold Querious not let alone delve.

    August 15, 2012 at 12:18 pm Reply
  8. CONDI-GEWNS-Pirokobo

    "There are two ways out of this for those alliances that want to upkeep reimbursement in the post-tech era: one is some form of VIP-membership that costs significant ISK/month for benefits. The other one is supporting and taxing nullsec PvE."

    Those are both terrible ideas and you should feel bad.

    We'll just do what we did before we had tech, which is sit down in a smoke filled room and decide which ships get the most bang for the least buck, and how much space we're truly willing to hold.

    August 15, 2012 at 12:23 pm Reply
  9. Gianni

    Im not like the TEST and many others Tech owner but what this idiot write here is full of idiotism…. He play only in high sec and don't even know how this game work.

    August 15, 2012 at 12:36 pm Reply
  10. The Martini

    What the hell was the point of this report??? "Look, I make almost as much ISKs as an alliance!!" WTF? *lol*

    Congratulations, but guess what, you are still a lonely nerd who sits docked up at Jita…

    ISKs rule in Jita, but its power faints the further away one is from Jita. Making billions of ISKs each month without using it for anything but to make more ISKs is the same as removing ISKs from the game. It becomes the same as destroying ships worth billions of ISKs.

    The whole point of 0.0 survival is to need as little as possible and to cause maximum damage! A good alliance does not need deep wallets. If they can destroy a lot of ships without needing much of their own, then the better they are.

    So again, congratulations, for being one living, breathing ISK sink. You have just won Jita's 4-4 station and turned yourself into an egomaniac. You may keep the station and stay docked forever. *lol*

    August 15, 2012 at 1:15 pm Reply
  11. Moar epeen

    Yet another "Hey, look at me! I'm rich!" from Goblin. Well done….I guess.

    August 15, 2012 at 2:36 pm Reply
  12. trolio

    trololololo

    August 15, 2012 at 3:10 pm Reply
  13. Hmm

    How exactly does one make 50b a month solo? I'm not trying to be a douche here, but do you have a job, or anything?

    August 15, 2012 at 5:15 pm Reply
    1. Jason

      Idk how to make that much in null sec, but what I do is put an alt in w-space corp, and making 50b a month is pretty easy, just half ass farming. Trying to make isk in nullsec is a waste of time after the trusec nerf, compared to other income sources available.

      August 15, 2012 at 7:52 pm Reply
  14. IRC dude

    You guys should see a IRC alliance mining fleet sometime… They sure as shit can't PvP, but IRC is da best carebears in the game.. And IRC has had for a long time implemented this guys suggestions. IRC never has done moon mining at all, and the Alliance still survives just fine. Sov bills get paid (and big ones too. Look at the sov map theres a cyno gen and jump bridge in every system.)

    August 15, 2012 at 5:53 pm Reply
  15. anon

    with the old northern coalition in the north tech price was stable at around 80k isk. it seems like they got enough isk from the tech for hundreds of jumpbridges, sov bils, replacement programms, and as the enemys of the nc said also enough income for heavy rmt to pay for the leaders real life bills.

    now the tech price is 100k isk and suddenly its not even enough to pay sov bills?

    August 15, 2012 at 7:49 pm Reply
  16. -A- can pay for all bills as well as for reimbursements on key ships such as T3s dictors and logistics. We fight 23/7 and often do enjoy losing ships and yet the isk keeps flowing. Hulls and some modules are replaced like for like by ones we make/farm ourselves without sole reliance on any markets.

    -A- use our isk income purely to PVP. We have a large isk and meterial income and good reserves (without any Tech) which we manage well. What leadership in other alliance does with their isk and resources is very questionable but we are enjoying whittling through hostiles and at some point their tech runs out… which will be a sad day for our killboard :(

    August 15, 2012 at 8:35 pm Reply
  17. Random Miner

    Though I did enjoy the actual point of the article, does he have to insist (IN EVERY FUCKING ARTICLE) he is the richest, and most smartiest pilot out there. It gets old, and when someone insists they are cool, no one will believe it.

    But again, I did enjoy reading about the economics, so please keep that up.

    August 16, 2012 at 5:53 am Reply
  18. Hemmo Paskiainen

    Can someone mail me who this dude is? Maing 40b a month alone, steady income is hughly difficult. So i dont rly believe him. Also hes talking shit, like you can monitor ppl pveíng or something. Tells me you never have been in null sec. I wish ppl stop talking about stuff they dont knwo anything about….

    August 16, 2012 at 3:37 pm Reply
  19. goblinsux

    Ugh, not this dumb ass again. The only thing he seems capable of is sound really dumb loudly.

    August 16, 2012 at 9:47 pm Reply

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