I’ve been playing the game for quite some time. There have been times in the game where null sec stagnated. In the past, CCP usually only allowed this to go on for a short while before stepping in with nerfs and buffs to change the balance, and break the stagnation.  They have a history of doing this:


– Null sec had the feeling of the wild west on the tail end of the Great Northern War. Vast stretches of null were open for grabs. Small gangs roamed through the space looking for targets. Mining gangs collected the (then) precious ABCs. Convoys of industrial ships, and later freighters, moved precious minerals and invaluable loot from null to empire. In the eyes of some of the influential devs of the current CCP, this was the golden age of null sec in Eve.  It saw Goonswarm’s formation, as well as BoB’s consolidation of power and rise to prominence.


– Outposts were changing the face of null sec, providing the large organizations of the day near-impenetrable castles. In response to this, the size of fleets began to rise dramatically. No longer could a couple dreads be dropped into a system and destroy everything a player group had worked to build and collect. With this new-found stability grew the first period of stagnation. There was a period of violence first though, as some player groups began to balloon in member numbers, alliances were formed, and the previous loose confederations fell under the onslaught of fleets with more than a hundred pilots in them. At the end of November, FIX erected their first outpost and it led to the largest fight in Eve up until that day. AAA and IAC assaulted the outpost. Mercenary Coalition was called in by FIX to help defend their new outpost. FIX/MC brought a then staggering 144 ships to the fight. IAC and AAA responded by batphoning Red Alliance to their aid. FIX and MC brought the upcoming powerhouse that was BoB. The resulting second fight, a week later, resulted in a staggering 177 ships destroyed in one battle (a total of 650 died during that day of fighting) and IAC/AAA/RA limped away with their tails between their legs.  Beaten.  Meanwhile, the unorganized sprawl that was ASCN built Steve in the midst of the Pendulum War.  That first titan was built and died in the span of three months.  By the end of 2006, null sec was beginning to see signs of stagnation for the first time.


– On the heels of the end of the tech 2 bpo lottery of Revelations 1, the North became stagnant with the consolidation of the Northern Coalition.  BoB/MC held the SW and had been in a poking war with IAC, where little more than roams to mess with mining/ratting occurred.  At the end of March, that changed when RA/IAC/IRON/Goons/NC all attacked BoB’s CSAA, which was constructing a titan.  The resulting battle was again bloody, and the baby titan died.  This broke the stagnation of null.  BoB was mad.  They paid MC to attack the north to pay them back.  A major battle took place which broke the NC.  The NC was able to regroup, but D2 had collapsed, BoB placed YouWhat in Cloud Ring and Pure Blind, forming their northern meatshield.  Triumvirate took advantage of the instability of the NC and expanded into Tribute.  But, after this initial burst of fighting, null stagnated again.  It had become clear the sheer numbers required to take space in this new era of Eve.  The sov map stabilized to look like this:


– The majority of the first half of this year saw the Great War ignite.  Meanwhile, Triumvirate destroying BoB’s pet You What unimpeded.  Despite months of fighting, the map had only shifted from this to this:


MC’s Tortuga had shifted BoB’s focus.  BoB redeployed against Period Basis.  Then, in July, BoB (some say spurred on by CCP Devs) opened their first MAX campaign.  They pushed north, but the NC pushed back.  Meanwhile, Goonswarm had expanded into a behemoth in the south.  2008 was the second most violent years for null sec (per capita).  CCP slipped in alchemy as the year ended, reducing the cash-printing machine that was r64 moon minerals, which reduced the value of stronghold Delve.  By the end of the year, with frightening numbers of ships destroyed, the map looked like this:


– Stackless IO meant this year would see fleet fights double the size of any previous year.  This year began with BoB being dissolved, leading to Goonswarm’s “burn the bridges, ATTACK” invasion of Delve/Querious.  In the span of two months, in the face of some minor battles, the map had shifted to look like this:

The rest of the year saw MASSIVE fighting.  The Southern Coalition began to form.  The Drone Regions Federation began to form.  With the formation of such entities comes fighting, to clear out threats to the coalitions.  As 2009 was coming to a close, the fighting began to noticeably die down.  Then CCP pulled the rug out from under everyone.  Dominion came out, with an overhaul of sov mechanics, and the Southern Coalition attacked the Northern Coalition.  Wildly Inappropriate began to rapidly lose Geminate, as it quickly became apparent that some flaws in the space mechanics meant a fleet jumping into a system would indefinitely black screen.  Meanwhile, in the West, BoB Mk 3 (IT Alliance) attacked Sons of Tangra and Pandemic Legion.  Neither Goonswarm, nor the NC came to their rescue, busy fighting the Southern Coalition.  Sons of Tangra collapsed, their most hardcore remnants later forming The Godfathers.  Pandemic Legion, however, was forced to re-evaluate the way they played.  This loss of space, and their severed relations with both Goonswarm and NC, led to the rise of the guns for hire PL that heavily influenced null sec for the next two years.  2009 ended with a map looking like this:


– AOE doomsdays were removed, allowing subcap numbers to rise to prominence once more.  The Southern Coalition returned south after Geminate, not willing to further risk cap fleets to the buggy Dominion mechanics.  Goonswarm began fighting IT Alliance.  In February, Goons imploded, then reformed as LODRA.  BoB Mk3 reclaimed their space in Delve.  AAA spent several months destroying CVA.  IT Alliance convinced the Southern Coalition and the reincarnation of Triumvirate to join them in yet another attack of the Northern Coalition.  After some bone-headed moves and horrible miscommunication, the Southern Coalition withdrew back to the south.  IT Alliance left to rat up their space to improve it under the Dominion Sov Mechanics.  Meanwhile, Triumvirate was at war with NC all by themselves.  As tough as Triumvirate was, they simply could not come close to the numbers NC could casually throw around, but still made sure that it hurt the NC to fight them.  By this point, the rise of the titan was becoming ever more apparent.  Meanwhile, the swarm of new players known as Dreddit formed Test, looked at a map upside down, and ended up right beside Goonswarm in Fountain.  Noticing the rising number of supers held by the DRF, NC attempted a preventative attack in October, which led to major fighting.  Two further major battles occurred before the year ended, first was the destruction of a few NC supers by IT Alliance.  The second was due to the increased realization that Technetium was THE bottleneck.  PL held tech moons in Venal, NC wanted them, major battle for them led to the destruction of a nine supercaps.  The map ended like this:


– To break up what was becoming a stagnation, CCP made a few changes to sov mechanics, such as a limitation of one jump bridge per system.  These changes further shifted power in the north, that had already been under threat by the rising super capital might of the DRF.  This was the beginning of the stagnation that we still live in today.  Like previous stagnations in Eve, it was marked by massive fighting at the beginning.  DRF first destroyed the NC, then the SC.  The map was left as the CFC v everyone else as the year came to a close, with very little fighting for the last several months of the year.  By the end of the year, a year that had seen the most impressive upheaval of sovereignty, very little was happening and the map looked like this:


– It was extremely apparent that null sec had stagnated as this year began.  CCP attempted to stir up fighting again with a nerf to the Drone Regions, removing drone ore.  This destabilized xDeath and led to a month of fighting, primarily PL being paid first by xDeath to fight SOLAR, then by RA to fight AAA.  PL withdrew after several controversies, and began collecting Tech moons while SOLAR quickly rolled back xDeath and AAA offered RA Delve if they would stop fighting.  Despite CCP’s pressure on the sandbox, fighting ceased after only a month.  Goons had a series of quick victories in the north, leading to taking Branch and Tenal over the span of two weeks.  Pandemic Legion, meanwhile started shooting people in Delve/Querious in an attempt to find some action in Eve.  Test joined in as things escalated.  Things continued to escalate, then Goons joined in, and resistance basically ceased.

Now we sit, months away from the next expansion, and CCP is rolling out a hail mary attempt to spur on fighting by rolling out a full alchemy mechanic for all moon minerals.  Will it have any impact on the Technetium Cartel?  Not likely.  Will it spur fighting?  It doesn’t seem to be shifting the sandbox in any way that could drive combat.  Rather, it is a devaluation of strategic targets.  At this point, CCP has allowed the moon goo problem to fester for too long for them to have many options.  Devaluing technetium might actually lead to tech holders being less likely to fight for space “just because” while everyone else will continue to be constrained by the, well, lack of technetium (or drone goo, sorry SOLAR), limiting their ability to attack the wall that is OTEC.  Breaking OTEC, and the stagnation of null sec will require a change on the order of a complete rebuild of Tech 2 construction mechanics.  Soundwave had been talking up ring mining at Fan Fest.  While it could conceivably be better than the current mechanic, CCP would also have to make mining actually… interesting for it to work.  I am not a game designer, but it is hard to miss when something doesn’t work in a game.

– Bagehi

Send us Intel/Corrections


  1. Some Guy

    The jumpbridge change might have been annoying, but it sure as hell didn't have a "game changing" impact… I do know a few logistics people that were quite angry over this, myself included, but that was about it (we adapted, go figure).

    A lot of these also look like "X caused Y" when Z could have also caused Y… you're kind of going out on a limb here… are you sure this is really what is happening, since your causal relationships seem a bit broken.

    July 23, 2012 at 10:26 pm Reply
    1. what up?

      It had a huge game changing impact… pre-nerf, fleets could move across 2 regions in a matter of about 8 jumps. The NC completely lost it's ability to mobilize large fleets and move them from tribute to pure blind or north in a matter of minutes.

      July 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm Reply
      1. Ungoon

        omgwtf… Goons/CFC are still able to move their retarded hordes around their space at will within minutes. Twice the number of jumps doesn´t make moving fleets around a nuisance and the slight increase in costs ist irrelevant if you own >50% of all Tech.

        July 24, 2012 at 12:26 am Reply
      2. Bagehi

        The NC as a whole did not deploy to fight the DRF, instead using the jump bridge network to deploy for individual fights, as there were threats to other parts of space while DRF bulldozed from the east. When faced with deploying against the DRF or defend their space against the more minor, but immediate, attacks, they picked their own space. NC broke up and fell.

        July 24, 2012 at 12:53 am Reply
      3. BillyBob

        The only problem with this particular point is that the JB nerf came well after the DRF + PL + SoCo Friends invasion began and the NC was already doomed. If anything, the only thing it did to hinder the defenders was to throw a wrench into our retreat / dissolution. We were already practicing for months a steady doctrine of: form defense fleet, wait on titan for 45 minutes, stand down because enemy has 200 supers in system. Moving the fleets was never an issue, pre or post nerf. It was a morale and a numbers issue, plain and simple.

        July 24, 2012 at 3:42 am Reply
      4. herp_de_derp

        Fuck yo jump bridges, we use PL titan chains erry day.

        July 24, 2012 at 8:47 am Reply
  2. This looks awesome, Very very good job Bagehi.
    Will read it now 😀

    July 23, 2012 at 10:28 pm Reply
  3. Somedude

    good read

    July 23, 2012 at 10:33 pm Reply
  4. dude

    i really don't get what people are on about stagnation . one of the biggest and oldest allinaces out there got wiped out .. legion/shadow and the entire south has been on fire and now taken over and there has been wars in the dronelands .. scalding and now geminate and most likely another up north about to start .. what more do you people want .. the map to explode?

    July 23, 2012 at 10:38 pm Reply
    1. whatever

      russian alliances don't exist in the public perception – they do their own thing on eve-ru and are a mystery to rest of eve

      July 23, 2012 at 10:51 pm Reply
    2. Hench

      Agreed. People just like to blame the current metagame situation on game mechanics or CCP instead of saying GG.

      July 24, 2012 at 12:03 am Reply
    3. Bagehi

      x Death isn't gone. They lost their space, but maintain 1500+ members. Thing is, they lost their space with very little fighting (other than initially with PL/RA/etc), partially because the drone nerf made the space worth significantly less. That happened in response to a change CCP made to prod on conflict.

      July 24, 2012 at 12:29 am Reply
      1. Iamchucknorris

        yea the devaluation of null sec space makes it so that a lot of space in null sec isn't even worth fighting. I mean if they nerf tech… i think it will make fleet battle in null sec less large because what else is there beside tech that is worth holding in null sec?

        July 24, 2012 at 1:25 am Reply
        1. anonymous

          It will make one sides fleets less large which is a good thing when they are fielding 3 to 7 times the number of their enemies because they can simply reimburse everything that dies.

          July 24, 2012 at 2:19 am Reply
      2. It's still worth more than Providence.

        July 24, 2012 at 4:04 am Reply
        1. herp_de_derp

          That it is good sir, but most of lowsec is worth more than Providence.

          July 24, 2012 at 8:45 am Reply
  5. SomeSay

    In regards to the 2008's introduction of Alchemy, you missed a rather important event that lead to the concept of alchemy: The revelation of the Ferrogel-exploit after it's been used for 4 years, most notably by Ev0ke and Daisho.

    July 23, 2012 at 10:45 pm Reply
    1. Bagehi

      True enough.

      July 24, 2012 at 12:54 am Reply
  6. Tek Enetheru

    I've started to play EVE in 2008. It was an enjoyable experience. But ever since then EVE became a game of numbers (especially supercap ones). Even when running a medium-sized fleet you'll have to spend 95% of time running from much bigger fleets and another 4% of time trying to catch smaller fleets: there is no reason to fight besides happy ganking of smaller force. Nano-nerf killed small gangs, new sov mechanics combined with supercap boost and TZ ping-pong killed sov warfare (you can predict who will win just by comparing their supercap amount and TZ coverage). Right now EVE's sandbox is full of cat shit. And you cant clean it with aurum.

    TLDR: from FC/eventmaker's pov EVE became a piece of crap.
    PS: FU english grammar nazis!

    July 23, 2012 at 10:45 pm Reply
    1. O.o

      When has EVE ever NOT been a game of numbers? The second most important rule of EVE is, "bring more dudes than they do". There has been no turning point where having more people on your side of a battle suddenly became beneficial. It has ALWAYS been this way. Big gangs have always chased smaller ones, and smaller have always run from bigger (in general of course). You will find yourself on both sides of that often, or at least I have.

      July 23, 2012 at 11:34 pm Reply
      1. Bagehi

        When there were AOE Titans. It was not a game of numbers. There were tons of problems with them, but it was not as much a game of numbers.

        July 24, 2012 at 12:55 am Reply
        1. Iamchucknorris

          well.. than why did they changed aoe titans into single target doomsdays? Cause you can practically hold a system with 7 titans no matter what they bridge as long as the cyno jammer is up. So idk. I mean even if ccp fix everything the game will become stagnate again. Its not because of the mechanics that is making null sec stagnate but because of diplomacy. Making allies and killing your enemy who happens to be #1 at that time well, makes everything stagnate.

          July 24, 2012 at 1:22 am Reply
          1. Bagehi

            Yeah – "tons of problems" – it was not a functional mechanic.

            July 24, 2012 at 1:31 am
          2. SgtSimons

            i just want the days of the dreads back. Dreads can be killed by support easily even in big numbers. Dreads are also something the average person could work for and get. Now they are a totally useless ship class. I can honestly say i miss the old sov mechanics.

            July 24, 2012 at 1:54 am
          3. No one important

            This post highlights more than anything else the problem with Titans. It isn't that they can wipe the floor against battleships…it's that they can do so at no risk to themselves.

            Dreads are very well balanced against sub-caps. 10 or 20 dreads on the field against a fleet will demolish large numbers of battleships (as they should), but even a victorious fleet is likely to lose a few.

            July 24, 2012 at 6:25 am
          4. dread blap

            No, they will not, as long as the subcap fleet FC is not stupid. The subcap fleet will pull range to 60-70km where the tracking dreads hit for very low damage, thus allowing the logis to keep them up, and then they'll murder the dreads while they're bubbled and in siege.The only situation where the tdacking dread fleet has any chance is if it's pitted against a close range fleet or a mid range fleet that messed up and came too close. There is a reason why the tracking dread fleets are not rampant currently in eve. Save for a few battles, thracking dreads have been a mythological beast….

            July 24, 2012 at 1:28 pm
          5. Low-sec Yarr

            Dreads are more relavent now than ever, smaller siege cycle, capable of tearing through POCO's with less than a handfull in 1 cycle, quickly taking out BS gangs, and if nothing else, luring out SC's into a fight.

            July 24, 2012 at 7:17 am
          6. M1k3y

            You cant bridge if a system is jammed. Do you even play Eve?

            July 24, 2012 at 11:30 pm
      2. low26

        it was not a numbers game when we had true nano, and AOE Doomsdays. Before CCP started nerfing the shit out of stuff

        July 24, 2012 at 4:53 am Reply
    2. Hench

      I think you are using the "rose tinted glasses" and seeing things as they were not.

      Secondly, major sov wars are won with morale, not supercaps, not numbers.

      July 24, 2012 at 12:01 am Reply
      1. Ungoon

        Wrong. They are always won in numbers – moral doesn´t count in 3to1 battles. Bringing 5% of a 20k players blob to join a fleet just to fight some 2k player alliance will get the smaller group murdered, even if they manage to bring 20% of their playerbase because of their "good morale".

        They´re not won in supercaps. Thats the only true story here. Supers habe been useless before the nerf (except in goon propaganda) and they are even more worthless now…

        July 24, 2012 at 12:21 am Reply
        1. anonymous

          when numbers start hitting 3 to 1 or higher like when goons come to a fight then yes its pointless, however it is very possible to beat a fleet of 150 with 70-90 depending on shiptypes, fc skill etc.

          July 24, 2012 at 2:14 am Reply
          1. Shames

            You are not considering that the Goons are terrible at Eve and those they fight are elite PVP alliances 3 to 1 sounds pretty fair.

            July 24, 2012 at 7:05 am
          2. Caustic Castration

            keep telling yourself that

            July 24, 2012 at 7:22 am
          3. -a- dude

            3 to one is manageable, when your enemy as incompetent as goons/test. however, when it gets over 1 to 4 or even 5, its pretty much impossible not to welp, if you choose to engage head-on

            July 24, 2012 at 7:50 am
          4. Ashesofempires

            The point of unmanageability comes when Ti-Di reaches a point where the side that's more willing to spend ships can get their dead pilots back into the fight. Especially when fighting CFC, you have to understand that in any fight that matters strategically, they are going to spend the ships necessary to claim the strategic win, if not the tactical.

            July 24, 2012 at 6:47 pm
          5. v0v

            On the contrary, Goons are probably the best alliance at EVE right now. They've realized that winning is a matter of planning and logistics, plus any scrubbiness on the part of their pilots is more than compensated by their large pool of passable-to-excellent FCs. They've got the ships, they've got the men, and they've got the money too. Manpower is like supercaps or t2 fits back in the bad old days: if you've got the advantage there, you're literally retarded if you don't leverage the fuck out of it. Save the SPESS E-BUSHIDO for lowsec honour duels.

            They haven't been "terrible at EVE" since the second dictatorship of Mittens began and began treating EVE like the serious fucking business it is. Believing otherwise is buying their propaganda line they use to shrug off any setbacks hook, line, and sinker. They're very, very good at what they do and are the most disciplined, coherent, and well-organized alliance in the game in terms of infrastructural administration.

            July 25, 2012 at 8:00 am
          6. Lol

            And they're murdering the game slowly but surely…

            So how do you beat them? Have everyone join them and wait for the boredom mortis to kick in?

            July 25, 2012 at 10:44 am
        2. Baron Shartypants

          Certain blocs and alliances seem to treat larger "blobby" alliances as if they're cheating, willfully ignoring how difficult it is to manage and motivate a community of that nany players. Morale is how those blobbers get that big in the first place.

          July 24, 2012 at 3:22 am Reply
          1. fuck goons

            these motivation tactics include making sure that corps participate or they lose their space that cfc basically gave every one of them. and they have nothing better to do, because there are blues for 5 regions in every direction, telling them that they have targets to shoot that are helplessly trying to defend a region makes all goons come running, they love trying to pad their killboards with non pos kill mails.

            July 24, 2012 at 6:58 am
          2. Imigo

            Participation in CFC fleets determines the space that CFC members get huh? You seemed to really get how the CFC works. That is until:

            "they love trying to pad their killboards"

            Oh dear, you totally don't get Goons at all.

            July 25, 2012 at 7:23 am
          3. Anonymouse

            They are about the posts and the tears, amirite?

            July 25, 2012 at 10:46 am
  7. Youaskedforit

    So Bagehi… why do you support the very alliances that are killing EVE then? Why don't talk with your best friend Mittani about this? Maybe he has some good answers for you..

    July 23, 2012 at 10:47 pm Reply
    1. wat

      You are ironically saying that, right?

      July 24, 2012 at 12:03 am Reply
    2. Bagehi

      Yeah, let me call up Mittani. I have him on speed dial of course. /sarcasm

      July 24, 2012 at 1:06 am Reply
  8. S2N HARD

    very good read

    July 23, 2012 at 10:52 pm Reply
  9. Nice read! So glad I live in NPC null… :)

    July 23, 2012 at 11:09 pm Reply
  10. Ellariona

    Good read. The most dramatic sov map change was from 2009b to 2010, but it's also nice to compare 2010 with today's map.

    All the big alliances still owning pretty much the same space (or a bit less/more but in the same regions) compared to over a year ago:

    * Goonswarm
    * NC.
    * Solar Fleet
    * IRC
    * Against All Authorities
    * RED.Overlord
    * TEST
    * Fatal Ascension
    * CVA

    July 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm Reply
  11. hater

    Missed destruction of IT, destruction of NC and probaby a lot more real big events. But in the end it gets clear this was just test propoganda, since he mentioned te part,were test held the map upside down and landed near goons. Also does anyone really believe they held the map upside down? That just stupid, also upside down, they could have seen they were landing near mrawsnoog. Anyway, lacking a lot of important stuff and mentioning a lot of unimportant stuff, but thats just my opinion. (or i didnt read it that well)

    July 23, 2012 at 11:26 pm Reply
    1. hater

      It seems i didnt read very well lol. My bad. But i am still standing by what i said aboit test landing next to goons. Nobody can be that stupid to accidently hold the map upside down decide to chill next to mrawsnoog. Also how do you put the evemap upside down? Also i love p3nis!

      July 24, 2012 at 1:54 am Reply
      1. Delvian

        If you 'explode' the EVE map in game, then hold left mouse and drag left or right, it rotates the map around its centre, its quite possible to have the map 'upside down' and the labels for regions and alliances etc are always shown the correct way around. :)

        July 24, 2012 at 2:12 am Reply
      2. BillyBob

        I was going to take the time to explain to you how irony and jokes work and how that story is a little piece of "EVE lore" but this is easier:

        Get out. Seriously, just get the f- out.

        July 24, 2012 at 3:55 am Reply
    2. Te Tuma

      As a founding dredditor I can confirm that is literally what happened. Bear in mind that at the time most of us had only just started playing Eve because of Dreddit and none of us knew much about anything. Also at the time we believed everything we read on Eve-O about ebil goonies and we absolutely were not seeking out contact with them at all.

      July 24, 2012 at 3:25 am Reply
  12. Excellent article. I'm a big fan of my Eve history so to read something like this has been an absolute delight to devour!

    July 23, 2012 at 11:34 pm Reply
    1. crotchface

      I agree, excellent article. More EVE history!

      July 24, 2012 at 12:57 am Reply
  13. O.o

    The only part of 2012 I really agree with is the OTEC part. If you can't find conflict, you're doing it wrong. The drone regions has seen battles ALL summer. Fighting in geminate between NCDOT/SOLAR has been fun. Delve was the scene of quite a few big fights, and then the escalation occured; but now -A- is reinforcing TEST sov and it's already created three large battles in the past 2 days, with many more likely to occur. Nulli/BL have hit several CFC tech moons in the north.

    While none of it is really 2 titans trading blows with everything on the line, fights are behind had and it seems like people are having fun because of it.

    July 23, 2012 at 11:40 pm Reply
    1. Bagehi

      Honestly, I'm not saying that null is devoid of conflict. I'm saying the size of battles and the frequency of battles has decreased in 2012 rather than its previous trend of increasing year-on-year. I think this is something of note.

      July 24, 2012 at 12:46 am Reply
      1. skullair

        ^ that's true i haven't heard about any record breaking fights in quite a while…

        July 24, 2012 at 1:19 am Reply
      2. CCP please wake up

        This is true. People is withdrawing from game due to CCP's fail to introduce sustainable fixes to current game issues.

        There is no point in playing really. Why to fight for sov? There is no point in risking supers that would just get replaced by the tech produced during the time it took to lose them.

        July 24, 2012 at 6:37 am Reply
        1. derp2

          "People is withdrawing from game "

          Subscription numbers are objectively increasing.

          "There is no point in risking supers that would just get replaced by the tech produced during the time it took to lose them"

          This sentence doesn't even make sense.

          July 24, 2012 at 9:39 am Reply
          1. Northerner

            "Subscription numbers are objectively increasing."

            – Actually, number only rose after november 2011, that's 5 months after Incarna and in the traditionally more active winter, until they peaked in april 2012 at the level of march 2011 (pre-Incarna).
            Today, the weekly average of logged-in players went back down to the level of october 2011.

            So yeah, we're now at the awesome level of "half a year after Incarna" again or, if you like, back in summer 2009. :-/
            Not really that much of a noteworthy increase because…well, objectively there isn't.

            July 24, 2012 at 2:37 pm
          2. Shogun

            You don't seem to know what your taking about, take a look at the avg. log in for the last month friend.

            July 24, 2012 at 8:06 pm
          3. Imigo

            Subscription numbers != Concurrent logins.

            July 25, 2012 at 7:25 am
          4. Asdvap

            Imigo, while unsubscription does correlate well to withdrawing players, it doesn't correlate entirely, what they are doing is informing the gentle goon/goon pet. That just because people are still paying for EVE doesn't mean they are still PLAYING it. The data the goon correlated(Subscription numbers) were not core to the issue of inactivity, because the average EVE player will pay his subscription while he takes his breaks because if he doesn't he loses valuable progression.

            To address the gentle northerner, it takes one(1(a single(only one(this means exactly one(and only one))))) tech moon 5 months to generate income enough to replace a super carrier at the rate they generate isk, 7.3 billion isk 7×5 is 35 .3×5 is 1.5 36.5 billion isk per five months out of a tech moon. And that's estimating you're getting ripped off. I've seen a fully x-type fit nyx go for 25-30 billion in an in-alliance sale. The average life of a supercap is about, depending on pilot, anywhere from 4 years – 1 year. That means in the time it takes the average person to lose their shiny new Nyx, if they have a tech teat to suck on, they(or rather their alliance) makes that Nyx back 2 fold. That is what he means by deploying supercaps is pointless. Keep in mind the goons have around 70 tech moons in Deklein alone. The space your coalition(OTEC/CFC, et al) controls has around 200 , That means in one month, Otec earns, assuming 200, around 1.44 trillion isk per month. And that's lowballing the number of moons you guys have. There is literally no physical way we can exhaust your isk supply before we exhaust ours. The only thing we can really do is try to dissolve income, by removing the tech from your hands. Which is what we're trying to do. And having fuck tonnes of fun doing it.

            July 25, 2012 at 10:29 am
      3. grimm

        CCP fixed lag that's why.

        fuck you Bageshi!

        July 24, 2012 at 10:05 am Reply
      4. InternetIdiots

        Maybe you should quit with the QQ and leave your giant blue blob for people that actually want fights then?

        July 24, 2012 at 7:02 pm Reply
        1. Bagehi

          I have rather active alts.

          July 24, 2012 at 7:18 pm Reply
  14. Hengroen

    sums up a lot of thoughts all in one easy to read text. Have you thought of email this to CCP? They could learn something

    July 23, 2012 at 11:57 pm Reply
  15. Glenn

    Has this years mineral price increases reduced the amount of conflict ?

    July 24, 2012 at 12:02 am Reply
    1. Bagehi

      Tech has had a more significant impact on what is fielded than low end minerals. Most high ends seem to have been stable from what I've seen.

      July 24, 2012 at 12:34 am Reply
    2. Alifikduzimir

      Since the prices reflect peoples ability to spend, why would they have reduced conflict?

      July 24, 2012 at 2:02 pm Reply
      1. Ashesofempires

        Prices tend to dictate how often people can lose ships, or the quality of ships they can afford to fly. Higher prices tend to make the less industrious players either more cautious or less active.

        The other thing that happened this year is that Incursions got their legs cut out from under them, so it's not so easy to fund one's pvp activities now.

        July 24, 2012 at 4:23 pm Reply
        1. Alifikduzimir

          That is the often touted fallacy.
          The volume of ships traded has not declined beyond statistical error and seasonal cycles. This means that
          a) numbers of ships exploding have not declined (KB statistics confirm this) hence demand stayed the same
          b) the increased prices are a result of increased availability of isk / devaluation of isk (inflation)

          So in the increased prices are a result of the ease of making ISK and the imbalance between ISK faucets and sinks. The "high cost" is a subjective and wrong conclusion because the numeric price value got larger, not because it took more effort to pay for it, on average.

          July 24, 2012 at 6:05 pm Reply
  16. Bittervet

    "While it could conceivably be better than the current mechanic, CCP would also have to make mining actually… interesting for it to work. "

    Bre-X is impossible in EvE. If you dont know Bre-X. I'll start it at the end "And then the site geologist got dropped out of a helicopter, and no-one went to jail".

    Make mining like real mining. Variable ore bodies. Misleading survey reports. Associated minerals. Several types of surveys, each of which give you some of the data (non-magnetic granites or a prospective trough ? It'll cost $4m to find out !)

    July 24, 2012 at 1:25 am Reply
  17. UmustBconfused

    Goons used to be very outspoken about their goals for EVE and several other games I have been unfortunate enough to have to put up with them in. their goals were not to play to enjoy, NOPE they were playing to kill the game(s) and as stupid as it seems they may have finally started to do it with the help of CCP. CCP probably don't realize it though as it seems like most of them have their heads firmly implanted up each others ass holes and it can be hard to see I would think when you have a face full of shit!

    EVE we need to remember is 9 half years old and for any type of computer game that is one hell of a long time, it does however seem that somewhere CCP forgot about what happened with the Monocle debacle and the number of players that left EVE for games that are developed by companies that listen a little better than CCP are capable of doing.

    I have also been watching the number of people that login at certain times of the day and even I have noticed that there has been a big drop in active players on a daily basis. Hell the number of people actually logging in to the game is the same now as what it was back in 2009 and dropping fast.

    I know I for one am regretting the fact I re-subscribed to EVE as I would of rather spent my money on one of the other MMO games available.

    you also didnt mention the fact you now have certain alliances within the game engaging in using introduced code to gain advantage over other players, you have people like that Baki yuku seemingly getting away with the fact he is a well known RMTer and several of the other big alliances also taking part yet NONE of the people involved have been perma banned. No instead CCP use the special 2nd set of rules they have for certain people that seem to be able to do whatever they want without fear of punishment

    July 24, 2012 at 1:31 am Reply
    1. BillyBob

      The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

      The door ———>
      is that way.

      July 24, 2012 at 3:50 am Reply
    2. derp2

      "CP forgot about what happened with the Monocle debacle and the number of players that left EVE for games that are developed by companies that listen"

      Except the complete 180 by CCP. The huge increase in CSM input, and getting that input before actual development starts, the switching from broken new features to iterating upon existing ones, the switch of focus off of aurum and other Incarna shenanigans, focusing on core gameplay and rebalancing etc.

      "there has been a big drop in active players on a daily basis"

      Summer slump combined with Incarna slump. Subscription numbers dipped around Incarna, but have recovered significantly and are increasing.

      " using introduced code to gain advantage over other players"


      "Baki yuku seemingly getting away with the fact he is a well known RMTer "

      The leaked logs in which he admitted to RMTing were obviously him trolling. Do you really think a single dude had a personal fleet of 15 titans? Where has this massive deca-box capital fleet been used? You really think CCP Skreegs wouldn't fap furiously at the thought of banning him? Botting is at an all time low.

      "several of the other big alliances also taking part"

      Any evidence of this whatsoever, besides tinfoil hattery?

      July 24, 2012 at 10:01 am Reply
      1. SwENSkE

        '"Baki yuku seemingly getting away with the fact he is a well known RMTer "

        The leaked logs in which he admitted to RMTing were obviously him trolling. Do you really think a single dude had a personal fleet of 15 titans? Where has this massive deca-box capital fleet been used? You really think CCP Skreegs wouldn't fap furiously at the thought of banning him? Botting is at an all time low. '

        Forget it. You won't convince tinfoil hat wearing derps like him.
        Same was said about Vuk Lau and he's still playing. But sure, CCP conspired to keep him in game. My god, I knew EVE24 is an equivalent to Fox News but some commenters even top that.

        July 24, 2012 at 12:15 pm Reply
      2. Northerner

        "Summer slump combined with Incarna slump. Subscription numbers dipped around Incarna, but have recovered significantly and are increasing."

        – I would really like to have your kind of optimism. Numbers-wise, the Incarna+Summer Slump debacle lasted 5 months until december 2011 when EVE hit a low with a weekly average of only 24k+ logged-in accounts.

        Player numbers rose until early april 2012 with a new high (33k+) since march 2010. Today we're at a weekly average of 28k+ logged-in accounts.
        That's definately an improvement after the damage that Incarna caused but still less than the lowest player numbers since july 2009 and not much more than july 2008.

        In all summer months since 2009, EVE players were more active than this year, or in other words: we're now back at the level of Christmas 2009.

        Is this an improvement? Yes. A significant one? I don't think so. It actually makes me think that the yearly average of EVE's player numbers might for the first time ever decrease. I mean, look at Early 2011; I bet EVE can't hit it's peak average of 36k+ this winter again. Or ever again.

        July 24, 2012 at 2:20 pm Reply
    3. Lobotras

      I always wonder what are those games, where developers listen to their customers? Can you name me, please? Lol. If you are bored to play, go play other games or just get out and breeze fresh air for couple of months (like I did) and, if you enjoyed EVE, believe me, you'll be back ,

      July 25, 2012 at 2:11 am Reply
    4. Imigo

      "the fact"

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      July 25, 2012 at 7:14 am Reply
  18. SgtSimons

    holy shit this make me feel old. lol I remember flying through IAC space and fighting for the NC in curse for the max campaign. These were the good old days.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:43 am Reply
  19. Kratisto

    Back in "the old days" of the "tons of good fights" wars were more even handed, but only because the leaderships of these factions were utter assholes. The peon may have gotten more fights, but on average one was also treated like garbage.

    Goonswarm and the CFC, taking after the kindness that Xdeath had first bestowed upon them, began treating their friends well. Other alliances are now emulating this, while the old ways are slowly dying out, such as the death of the IT block, the Northern coalition, and slowly now the Southern coalition.

    While there has been larger moments of quiet, I am of the opinion that as the universe changes it will become more bloody in the future. While the CFC and HBC have strong blue ties, and will probably not fight each other while the same leadership structures are intact, their armies are for the most part diminished with the split. This will remain for the foreseeable future, unless either faction's capital region is threatened/besieged. Emergent to the fight is a nascent Black legion-led coalition.

    To those that decry stagnation and an all-blue nullsec, this fear and nay-saying has been around as long as I have been playing, sometimes louder and at others muffled. Eve has always had moments of flux, and as long as people like shooting ships there will be ships blowing up.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:47 am Reply
    1. BL Pilot

      Let me make something perfectly clear. Black Legion is def. not interested in participating in any huge blob coalition type shit. We're just looking for the good fights. Sometimes, we blue dudes to even the numbers a bit, and sometimes we kill everything/everyone.

      250 (BL/Nulli) vs 350 (CFC)

      Yet, we fought Nulli a couple of days ago, (though I don't have a link offhand).


      I don't think BL as a whole gives much of a crap about anything else, other than getting a good fight. We've ran 30 dudes into 100. We've ran 50-70 dudes into 200+, and we'll continue running dudes into fleets (win or lose) in an attempt to get that good fight. To claim however that Black Legion is forming some coalition to piss on the CFC is a bit of a stretch. We just piss on everyone tbh.

      *Pissing on Goon tech provokes good fights.

      July 24, 2012 at 8:06 am Reply
    2. Northerner

      Then I really want those old-school assholes back because the kind of assholes that are in charge now are not FCs or Alliance leaders or "warriors" in general but politicians that make Realpolitik all day long.

      That's why reasonable political assholes like Mittani are so influential and aggressive military assholes like Shadoo or (whowasthatagain) Sir Molle aren't anymore.

      July 24, 2012 at 2:54 pm Reply
    3. Bagehi

      Black Legion, like Pandemic Legion, aren't interested in forming coalitions or controlling sov. They're there to burn all things.

      July 24, 2012 at 5:30 pm Reply
      1. anonymous

        Like PL used to be. To say they aren't interested in forming coalitions is not quite true considering they are blue to every alliance in the CFC. Not sure how blueing the biggest blob in the game is supposed to get you good fights.

        July 25, 2012 at 3:39 am Reply
        1. Easterner

          They had some good fights against nulli initially. Overall, though, PL hasn't been about good fights for a long time now since they are usually allied with one huge coalition or another. It's more about trying to get the big super kills, grabbing tech money and posting on forums.

          July 25, 2012 at 6:17 am Reply
  20. Keepa

    Post was filled with a lot of assumptions that are based on updates CCP released, and snapshots of the sov. map.

    History was just rewritten, and to be honest I don't even care enough to point out what was wrong.

    Good job EN24, you almost never disappoint.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:50 am Reply
  21. exmoongoolord

    molle was the best villain. i miss him. mittani is boring, i just cant get motivated to kill boring people.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:56 am Reply
    1. anon

      give me molle or give me death!

      molle is on my top two of people i want back to eve.
      the second being aralis of CVA.

      July 24, 2012 at 2:44 am Reply
    2. CCP please wake up

      There should be a way in Eve to ensure that people who does not play the game has any influence in it… Let's say you have all the real money in the world and you can afford almost infinite isk accumulation, via tech, RMT, buying plexes, or whatever… If despite how much isk you own, and if despite how many more numbers you get, you still wouldn't be able to hold sov against a highly motivated and skilled smaller group… THEN IS WHEN EVE WOULD COME BACK TO LIFE!!!

      The day this formula applies to EVE, it's the day the game will be fun to play again:

      In-game activity + in-game skill+ in-game team work + risk assumming willingness >>> blob and wallet size

      We, the players of EVE, demand 'consequence' and in-game balance… Otherwise, some idiot who doesn't play the game any more or some RMT master nerd gets to decide how more or less perma stagnation the game gets.

      July 24, 2012 at 5:18 am Reply
      1. derp2

        This is completely unfeasible, unenforceable, and unintelligible.

        July 24, 2012 at 9:31 am Reply
  22. eryerty

    wow…. foxnews 24 actually put out something that wasn't propaganda…. I'm impressed, seriously, I really am

    July 24, 2012 at 2:03 am Reply
    1. Aluminum Foil Hat

      Don't let it get to you!!!

      Its Eve News 24 propaganda, designed to trick us into giving their writers/editors more credibility.

      July 24, 2012 at 3:31 am Reply
    2. Random Miner

      if you're talking about the goonie thing, it's not propaganda to call them assholes, pretty sure they stand by that title…

      July 24, 2012 at 4:16 am Reply
  23. truth

    " The map was left as the CFC v everyone else as the year came to a close, with very little fighting for the last several months of the year. "

    Actually Mittani made a NIP with DRF when DRF was fighting NC. After NC fell and following the VFK attempted headshot, it was obvious there was a large NIP in place and CFC + DRF were considered one of the same. The entire DRF dogpiled onto the south but in the end they didn't finish the job.

    " PL withdrew after several controversies, and began collecting Tech moons while SOLAR quickly rolled back xDeath and AAA offered RA Delve if they would stop fighting."

    The war was already over at that point and no one had to offer anything in order to stop the fighting. The fighting was done. It was a deal for SOV transfer and consolidation of the south.

    July 24, 2012 at 2:26 am Reply
  24. Sons Of Tangra

    Viva Libre Sons of Tangra

    July 24, 2012 at 2:29 am Reply
  25. Gary

    CCP's Hail Mary won't be rolled out for another 6 weeks, but my sub runs out in 3. Here's hoping it gets interesting again with the next expansion. If it's all about the mining then maybe a longer eve vacation will be in store for me.

    July 24, 2012 at 3:11 am Reply
  26. hirrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

    there is some major mix ups on order of events here and some gloss over of some significant wars.
    The drone alloys nerf didn't take any effect or was even announced until after xdeathx had started to implode.

    July 24, 2012 at 3:25 am Reply
  27. BillyBob

    Great retrospective piece, but I think yo glossed over the DRF invasion of, and subsequent fall of the NC. That was the EVE equivalent of operation Barbarossa, but with better results. Either way, seeing some of the names on those old SOV maps really takes me back to a simpler time.

    Unfortunately I think that it's just human nature to look back on the past nostalgically and towards the future wearily. From my point of view, as long as there are people still playing EVE, we will find ways to make it interesting.

    July 24, 2012 at 3:31 am Reply
    1. NC blob

      Well, actually I would say that it was the other way around, NC invading first and then getting counterattacked by the DRF…

      July 24, 2012 at 1:39 pm Reply
  28. Wey'oun

    very good read, nice to see an article conjure up some constructive and interesting arguments for a change rather than the usual epeen war.

    July 24, 2012 at 4:06 am Reply
  29. Mf doom

    Eat shit and die CCP

    July 24, 2012 at 4:27 am Reply
  30. Tyrone Biggums

    X.I.X. was well into fail long before the drone poo drops got nerfed.

    July 24, 2012 at 5:22 am Reply
  31. Peggy From Prime

    Hmm…a "historical" post that concludes with a speculation that the alchemy won't work as intended. In fact, according to Bags, it may have the opposite effect. I disagree. The biggest risk for stagnation is to continue to allow a select few to control resources without the opportunity to utilize alternatives –

    If gasoline were $100 per gallon – we wouldn't be using gasoline for very long – that's why OPEC tries to maintain an upper AND lower threshold – they understand the ramification of being a pig.

    OTEC have been pigs – and now they're fixing to get slaughtered.

    Adding an alternate source of supply without OTEC pricing controls will certainly have an impact. While likely not breaking OTEC, it will create pricing pressure on Tech that will, in turn, create strain on the cartel as alliances drop pricing to more competitive levels. I'm not sure what the inventory levels currently sit at – but if they are high…. this may be fun to watch – who wants to sit on inventory as the price drops. There's a huge first mover advantage here when it comes to dropping price before the bottom.

    When those impacted by a change rail against it – it demonstrates maybe it's a good start.

    July 24, 2012 at 6:08 am Reply
    1. derp2

      The alchemy change only caps tech around ~55k/u. Still a huge source of income, and putting up the moons to mine the cobalt and react it would be a huge pain in the ass.

      July 24, 2012 at 9:46 am Reply
      1. Tryntu

        i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming this was a typo, but it's actually around ~155k p/u.

        July 24, 2012 at 10:23 am Reply
    2. Arlekyn

      I'm pretty sure the people that will do alchemy for tech equivalent will be more than happy to sell their products at high/OTEC price. I fail to see any reason for them to sell for less just for the sake of trying to make OTEC sell for less.

      July 24, 2012 at 12:31 pm Reply
      1. Peggy From Prime

        Really? Maybe …just maybe..a competitor might sell it for 100 isk per unit less than OTEC….you know to move the product. And hey maybe..just maybe the next guy might sell it for 100 less than that know to move the product first – and maybe…just maybe…..
        It has nothing to do with trying to make OTEC do anything – it has to do with the law of supply and demand. OTEC will have to respond to new competitors – the easiest way to do that is to lower the price of tech to the cost of the alternative manufacturing process. It's still a shit ton of money for them – especially since the required capital has already been invested.

        July 24, 2012 at 2:51 pm Reply
    3. Bagehi

      Alchemy is good. I am just saying that it took too long to address the problem, and that change will not impact the system enough to change the status quo at this point.

      July 24, 2012 at 2:51 pm Reply
  32. Invisible

    People complain so much about numbers but what is funny to me having some 20+ characters in various major null sec alliances is how awfully terrible 95 percent of eve players are at PVP. Just extremely awful. A small organized group can wreck havoc on the battlefield. Look at Pandemic Legion, look at Black Legion. Goons might beat AAA due to numbers, but the truth of the matter is it isnt as if AAA has any quality besides that either.

    Anyway 10/10 for the article. Takes me back.

    PS, Mittani is a glorified reject. A nobody that sits on a pile of shit. The only advantage is that his pile of shit is taller than everyone else's.

    July 24, 2012 at 6:21 am Reply
  33. Hopeful

    Why dose CCP think Alchemy is the answer to the tech issue, rather than addressing the real issue of uneven distribution of Tech moons & the restriction of moon mining to less than 0.4 security systems ( when 0.4 systems do have some distribution of valued tech) ?
    Why dont they scale all levels of moon minerals into the building material requirements for all ships?

    Given the upcomming rework of POS's and eventual moon ring mining, the above if implemented, would surely help to encourage more industrial activity in 0.0, which would help drive the high sec economy & hence could stimulate more warfare as risk vs reward comes into play, as more people move to low sec and 0.0 in search of rewards. It could also in theory potentially encourage the formation & rise of new alliances.
    This by itself, in no way would resolve the issues of blob warfare, alliance/coalition non agression pacts, nor cartels such as OTEC. Neither would it fix the issue of CCP introducing band aid solutions to problems they consider to be in the too hard basket, after they fail to listen to what the player base has been telling them for years. But it could have a impact on just how the sov map looks as new and old alliances come into conflict.

    July 24, 2012 at 6:22 am Reply
  34. it is only now that everyone that cried about supers are now whining about people not doing anything about goons.

    Supers were the anti blob.

    Today tho, supers are used for very little, Super carriers are not used at all due to lack of a proper drone bay (really a simple limiter of 100 drones of any type, 5 sets, would fix the issue). Titans are still "viable" but only against battleship based fleets now, even with hundreds of target painters on a battle-cruiser the damage reduction is stupid.

    Two of the biggest ships in the game, true monsters, were taken down by means that had no control over. With those nerfs in place Goons knew they could run the game as they saw fit, and they pulled the wool over CCP's eyes and trolled the entire game.

    Well done CCP…..well done.

    July 24, 2012 at 6:26 am Reply
    1. you fail

      you sir, are an idiot. CFC is the biggest supercap blobbing entity now.

      July 24, 2012 at 2:25 pm Reply
    2. Backdoor Man

      Dude, don't you know that the Goons and CCP Soundwave are one in the same? Soundwave is a Goon through and through, he cheats for the Goons and there isn't shit you are anyone else in this game can do about it.

      Goons even have people in the Internal Affairs department of CCP, so any complaints you bring against CCP Soundware are instantly destroyed before anyone else see's said complaint.

      Goons have won Eve Online. It is now officially Goons Online. You have all been beat. Stop your bitching and play our (the CFC) game or pick another game to go play. It is our server, you are only here to amuse us now with your stupid FC's and your stupid shit fits that bring us lots of laughs when you get all teary-eyed after loosing that thing you call a PvP rig.

      There is nothing that can unseat the CFC, and if by some miracle somebody comes up with something, Mitten's will just go to CCP Soundwave and have whatever he needs changed in order for his coalition to come out on top. Be it price fixing, ship bonuses, whatever. Its how the big boy's play now, so pick up your sippy cups and be our cannon fodder!

      July 24, 2012 at 2:37 pm Reply
      1. Aurical Cryso

        Hey man, glad you swung by. I think I fixed your tinfoil hat problem – your rage-induced sobbing is starting to make it really difficult for the engineers to keep the hat on during your spasms and fits.

        July 24, 2012 at 3:34 pm Reply
    3. Northerner

      "Supers were the anti blob."
      – True but now imagine a power block with the numbers of Goons with Supercaps…how do you fight THAT kind of blob? With super-supercaps?

      July 24, 2012 at 2:56 pm Reply
      1. Ashesofempires

        Capital and Super cap tactics aren't the same as you use for subs. It takes a bit of experience before most players are going to be willing to take their high end shinies into a battle under the command of an inexperienced super FC, especially against an enemy who knows the ins and outs of capital and super cap warfare.

        All that being said, there aren't many entities out there like the former Team Tech, so goons have all the time in the world right now to figure out how to point the sharp end best.

        July 24, 2012 at 4:15 pm Reply
      2. JONASDOT

        Not true.

        – PL is a wild card, experienced and ofc owns like 300 supers.
        – NCDot has 1:6 against GSF in members, roughly 1:1 in supers.
        – SOLAR, Raiden(still has shitloads of titans…) Evoke, even -A- block has a relevant supercap fleet.

        Another factor: A supercap fight is the ONLY thing that has potential to truly hurt fat wallets like those. With the current mechanics there is not a single thing that would justify fielding trillions of isk worth of ships if the enemy doesnt need to escalate.

        CFC did acquire more supers. I think they are @ old NC level right now, so they could match
        Its a shame that we wont see uemon, o2o-2x again.

        July 24, 2012 at 6:04 pm Reply
        1. Uemon, O2O-2X, ahh good ol fights, only if TiDi only existed back then

          July 24, 2012 at 10:26 pm Reply
    4. seph

      why should you be blaping subcaps with titan guns anyway?

      Other alliances exist other than goons that benefit from the end of supers online. Those that benefit from supers are the elitist few.

      July 24, 2012 at 11:00 pm Reply
      1. Basically Supers were the check-sum for subcap blobs a.k.a. the check-sum to Goonswarm. Without that check in place, entities like goons or anyone else wanting to make a collation of players 1/4th of the player base. They allowed smaller groups to project power against massive groups like goons, even if goons had an impressive super fleet. Supers vs Supers is much more balanced then the mess that is sub cap fleet fighting (there are only 4 types of each super after-all). This gives small groups like PL the ability to fight CFC or any other massive collation, on par with them.

        A prime example of this was CFC vs Raiden. where Raiden. a much smaller singular alliance was able to hold off and even win fights against an entire collation of ships.

        July 24, 2012 at 11:30 pm Reply
        1. SpaceNerd

          I find it very refreshing that the average player now can team up and actually be able to fight a smaller entity of bittervet elite pvp people. Continued Super Caps Online would eventually end eve since newer players could never compete with the old bitter vets and thus would stop play and pay. The elite pvp guys need to realize that the noobs are the ones paying for game and for all your plexed accounts.

          July 24, 2012 at 11:57 pm Reply
          1. who knows?

            Can you say then whats the expiration date of players? 2-3 years? then you become a vet and "eve" is better off without you?

            Also, please tell me who likes "risk free" pvp, the ones who risk, as you sugested (lol), literally decades worth of plexes in a single fight or the people who wants to be the 1001º member in a fleet of fully insured cheap ships in a coalition that can brind 2:1 odds against everyone….

            July 25, 2012 at 3:15 am
          2. SpaceNerd

            Risking a BS or even a BC might be a huge deal for a noob in the same way as risking a cap is for a vet.
            And it's nog that vets need to quit the game, they just have to realize that Eve needs to be fun for everybody, including noobs and casual players, and not just for 5 years plus players with unlimited isk and multiple accounts. If vets are basically unkillable with their SP advantage, massive assets and isk what is then the point for a newer player to play?

            July 25, 2012 at 9:59 am
          3. JONASDOT

            Its not a big deal. Its one hour of grind for a 6 month old player, so he can cover the mods and the difference between insurance reward and the cost. And this is just isk cost…

            Its just sad that people trully believe that titans and supers were unkillable and OP against subcaps… Keeping it simple, you (as a titan pilot) had 2 options: blap fit when you know your enemy wont jump in supers and dreads; tank fit when there is chance of a fight.
            When you fit for tank, they were not OP against supcaps and there is a number os fits and fleet concepts that could mitigate damage… the same way that a maelstrom can oneshot a dramiel, titans could track subcaps with no transversal at considerable range.

            IMO if the only thing they had to fix was the logoff mechanic. There is not a single alliance that can afford to lose a super fleet and come back for the next 6 months with the same power… Maybe PL could replace a bunch of them… But could they do it 2 or 3 times in a month? Could goons do it even with all those tech moons?

            The only way to break an alliance with that kind of money would be killing supers. The moment they stop paying the ones who lost them, NOBODY ELSE would put their shit on the line. So you dont have to kill them all, just enough so they cant afford to replace them.

            With the current mechanics, they have become just tools to grind sov when there is not a chance of a fight. Sure some of them can be ganked, but supercap brawl its not going to happen again.

            July 25, 2012 at 1:05 pm
          4. Agreed, we will never see fights like Ueamon and O2O-2X ever again, even though those fights are forever engraved in our minds as some of the biggest and most epic fights EvE has ever seen. CCPGoons has made sure of that those fights, on that scale, with that many ships of every kind, will never happen again.

            July 25, 2012 at 8:44 pm
          5. troll

            "what is then the point…"


            (c) CCP Soundwave

            July 25, 2012 at 5:49 pm
          6. Super caps online would not end eve, instead Goonswarm Online WILL end eve. There entire purpose in this game is to do just that.

            Mind you, this is NULL sec were talking about, where SP requirements exist. Null sec isn't safe, nor will it ever be, its where at any moment you could be killed by someone else. It might be that blue awoxer next to you, or that red that just came into system. Null sec isn't for the faint of heart nor the 3 month noob. Aka, null is where the "end game", if eve had one, would be.

            July 25, 2012 at 11:43 am
  35. WilliamWestmere

    THERE ARE STILL FIGHTS. THERE IS NO "STAGNATION." There are at least 3 current regional conflicts each with a large number of pilots and assets committed to them, and the landscape is once again shifting. Furthermore, just a few weeks ago when the CFC+HBC fought SoCo it was not uncommon to see local skyrocket past 1400+. I literally do not understand where this concept of "stagnation" even arises from, it's not like everyone has retreated back to their respective territory and begun care bearing and ratting; all the major players in null are deployed and fighting. The article itself was a very good history read and i'm not attacking it at all from the content perspective, but seriously who the fuck is coming up with this stagnation bullshit? This is armchair PVP shenanigans, come out and join fleets in your respective alliances and go and fight people.

    July 24, 2012 at 7:18 am Reply
    1. WilliamWestmere

      To elaborate in a more calm fashion; people need to understand that this is a transitionary period so no, sov is not being taken and it's mostly gudfites and HBC slapping around -A- and friends, but the sparks of conflict are present with BL stirring up goon tech up north and the geminate conflict still raging as far as I know (?). Plus as I said, TEST and allies slapping around a disorganized shitty -A-.

      July 24, 2012 at 7:22 am Reply
      1. Blockblobs do count

        A WHOLE 3 CONFLICTS!!!

        William Westmere, unintentionally you provide a good summary of the problems the article debates. In these commentary lines BL have come up as an example a couple of times already. They seem to be used as some kind of bottom-line actor. BL is a 650-man alliance. Hardly the budding upstart looking to influence a single system or constellation. They are perfectly capable of fielding 100-man gangs all by themselves. That is not "small" by any logical standard.

        There are 100 alliances in EVE with 496 members or more. If those hundred 500-man behemoths are only capable of generating 3 (not entirely independent) conflicts at once; how is the OP not right about stagnation?

        You are making his argument for him.

        July 24, 2012 at 1:30 pm Reply
        1. WilliamWestmere

          Sir, if you want to talk character counts the Delvewar while embarrassingly short (this was SoCo's fault for folding so willingly) still brought to bear 80k characters. 80. Thousand. That's enough to be considered a goddamn small armed conflict in a 3rd world country! As I said before, this is quite frankly a transitional phase where alliances are shifting directions, and more heavy "sov" based conflict (because it seems normal fights count as "stagnation") are on the way. Furthermore "eve" is not "null". I am aware just because of old ties that there is still significant conflict among hisec mercenary corps as well as i'm sure WH entities and low sec pirates do nothing BUT fight. You have to be careful with these numbers, as they aren't always accurate or relevant to what we're talking about in this article; null sec and the number of null sec alliances is much smaller than 100 alliances with 500+ members.

          July 24, 2012 at 6:56 pm Reply
          1. Blockblobs do count

            The problem with going half-way into detail is that you never get it accurate enough. I made a sweeping generalisation because the point made doesn't have to be entirely accurate. If those 100 alliances are in fact only 50 alliances (and then i am quite gratitious), a mere 3 conflicts is still incredibly poor.

            You managed to raise or prove the actual point yourself again though. The issue is that out of how many whatever alliances there are actually engaged in nullsec (or alliances out of nullsec who possibly could partake), about "80. Thousand." are all engaged in a single conflict in a single region. That's why there are not more separate conflicts, because there are not more sovereign actors.

            It's all pretty simple math: take the vast majority, throw them into a single conflict and you will see stagnation everywhere else.

            All of these alliances, sovnull or elsewhere, have a much higher potential generating conflict and content. The game and trends in the game is not encouraging it well enough at the moment – and the reason is not "summer". Then we would have had an ever increasing summer for the past few years. Explosions may be had, but they are in vast majority pointless explosion of free ships in few large engagements.

            July 25, 2012 at 1:49 pm
  36. mountain/molehil

    Enjoyed the article.

    As always when someone writes an article that has some thought, musings and offers opinion, as opposed to just pasting a mail from someone in a big fight somewhere.

    As someone mentioned earlier, the very succes of Eve and its longevity is an issue. More and more players are moving up to the higher tier capitals. They still represent an elite group (SP wise only perhaps…), but there are increasing numbers of them.

    In terms of Sov it is incredibly hard to fight against large 'blobs' of these ships, and the ability of groups to have them on standby to turn large subcap fights if going the wrong way is huge too. Hence TEST going it alone now….. except for PL support!

    Some suggestions for CCP

    Dreads – move jump range up to match carriers/supercaps. Introduce a 'Fire Control' bonus that allows groups of 5+ and 20+ dreads gain ROF/damage bonus. They are easier to get into, and this would encourage larger deployments of them, and offering a counter so supercap+

    Super Capitals – Jump Drive cooldown. 10 minute cooldown after 2 jumps. This reduces (slightly) their sphere of influence (jump wise).

    Tech – change its value. Either by increasing supply (new moons) or reducing requirements in builds. Bring it into line with other high end moons. Still an excellent income source, but spread this across Eve.

    Geography 1. Make all Player SOV at least two jumps from Empire (Expand NPC 0.0 in ring around Empire – faction war content? Incursion content? Storyline content… pirate faction war?

    Geography 2. Introduce a new ring of 0.0 space around edge of New Eden. Spread it out. New storyline to introduce. Mix up systems with some of the WH system features. Increase rewards with distance from Empire. Deep 0.0 being more unpredictable. Break stargates between systems initially. SO they are scanned down and have to be repaired before appearing on map. Make them 'break' if not used for 48 hours.

    Geography 3. Increase 'transit' WH frequency. Direct space to space, not into a WH. Prehaps link into storyline development of 'deep null sec'.

    Structures: Allow a max upgraded (3 levels of upgrade) station to be able to fit station defence – a doomsday size weapon with similar cooldown. Not able to target subcaps.

    rambling, sorry – but some ideas for shakeup

    July 24, 2012 at 8:36 am Reply
  37. AmarrHardin

    Been playing since 2003. Every year I see some people squealing about stagnation – usually people with an agenda to push…

    Anyway… Before everyone leaps to the conclusion that everything is just shit compared to the past let's look at some actual figures from Dotlan. Unfortunately it only provides 'overall' intel on 2010, 2011 and partial data for this year.

    Sov Gains in 0.0:
    2010 – 4,144 (12 months)
    2011 – 5,022 (12 months)
    2012 – 3,979 (After just 7 months) – If continues in similar vein could be over 6,000 by year end.

    Ship kills in 0.0
    2010 – 2,540,258 (12 months)
    2011 – 2,452,997 (12 months)
    2012 – 1,716,560 (7 months) – if average holds steady could be over 2,900,000 by year end.

    2012 is on course to be a particularly bloody year – unless nothing happens between now and the end of the year (which would be stupid to suggest based on previous history)…

    I think the writer of this article bases a lot of assumption on the fact that the sov map does not change. This implies that things are 'stagnating' yet sov is not everything and a lot of very bloody wars go on behind the scenes and do not necessarily impinge upon the map.

    In addition the map can be misleading. If you look at some of the old maps you see CVA in same place as it is right now. Stagnation yes? But in between those two snap shots CVA have been kicked out of (and regained) their space twice…

    Yes there are problems with the Tech cartel enjoying an overwhelming superiority at the moment – and yes CCP does have to do some work to rebalance this (their current efforts are pretty tame so far) but to suggest that the game has stagnated because of it is pushing things a bit too far and ignores all the 'unseen/non-sov' combat that is going on on in 0.0 on a daily basis…

    July 24, 2012 at 9:52 am Reply
    1. Bagehi

      The beginning of 2012 was where the vast majority of those kills and sov changes occurred. Primarily in the fall of the north as well as the changing hands of the drone regions, events set in motion the previous year. Fighting has noticeably decreased since then. There are still hot spots, but those would take CCP intervention in the form of game changes to ignite into something that would allow kills and sov changes to reach the numbers you suggest. Look at month-on-month changes.

      July 24, 2012 at 2:59 pm Reply
      1. Burnjita

        it is necessary to explain which form of fighting you actually mean which decreased. if u mean noticable large scale fights which involves (e.g.) more than 500 players up to 2000 players which should be equal on both sides giving each other a GF too then you might be right. those kind of fights decreased. but those fights are an exception anyway.

        Players start adapting the way eve is changing. Today a null player is part of an Steamrolling Entity which proclaimes winning by taking sov/moongoo from other Steamrolling Entities or a null player is part of an Entity who looks for other ways of "winning the game" while doing other forms of PvP.
        Those who might suffer from those changing times are Statistic Nerds and Websites like EveNews that dont know what themes will be newsworthy in the future if largescale fights decrease more and more.

        July 24, 2012 at 6:06 pm Reply
        1. Bagehi

          The vast majority of people in Eve spend time on this game for the good fights. Not sure if you are a masochistic, but PVE and structure grinds in Eve are, for most people, the antithesis of fun. Eve, being a game, will not last long if structure shoots and PVE are the only things going on.

          July 24, 2012 at 6:29 pm Reply
          1. Mono

            PVE is the cornerstone of the vast majority of games on the market eve is not really an exception as most eve players spend more time shooting npc's/structures/roids than pvping…. it seems eve will not last long for the past decade of expansion.

            July 24, 2012 at 6:35 pm
          2. Burnjita

            well your response does not correlate with what i wanted to tell.
            in my eyes your opening post says one single message: "i want to see more big fleetfights" those fleetfights are the product of playerdriven selforganisation in accumulating friends, improving communication, mastering logistical challanges and god knows what else.
            playerdriven organisation is the reason for big fleetfights but it is also the reason for killing this form of PvP when theres not at least one other form of player-organisation which is able AND willing to compete against it.

            We do have this kind of scenario right now. but it doesnt mean theres something wrong with eve or the players doing something wrong. it only shows that time has changend. and the dawn of a new situation will force the players to evaluate their options how to handle with this new situation. a decreasing in large fleetfights means that players choose to evade on other forms of pvp or to compete on another levels. if the players cant win in large scale pvp anymore or doesnt see any sense in trying, then time has come to evade to lets say small scale pvp and harass your opponent again.

            All i want to say is. No matter what happend on the sovmaps: PvP will occur nevertheless. Eve is a game which has the strength to compensate the death of whole forms of how to play this game… and every decrease means an increase in other forms of playing or at least it increased number of bittervets, who are nothing more than players who arent able to adapt.

            July 24, 2012 at 8:36 pm
          3. Shogun

            yeah, right, when people leave the game b/c it's awful, and unbalanced means you will just see more small gang PvP in the future. Makes perfect senses.

            July 24, 2012 at 9:02 pm
          4. Burnjita

            you are one of those bittervets i mentioned before?
            well i thought it would be clear to everyone who is actually able to "think" but for you ill make an exception and explain that little implication: i refered to players who actually play this game and continue playing. if you stop playing the game because other people destroying "your game" then nobody cares. Nothing else is the case in this particular matter.

            July 24, 2012 at 9:25 pm
          5. Shogun

            I fully understand, you think your winning the game b/c your probably one of those dudes that dogpile on to the winning side, so keeping status quo is great, the fact that the disparity between null regions is so crazy that you stop getting fights in not relevant, whats good for you is good for the game in your eyes.

            July 24, 2012 at 10:04 pm
          6. Imigo

            "you think your winning the game b/c your probably one of those dudes that dogpile on to the winning side"

            Wow, that's quite some assumption there. You know what is said about assumptions right?

            July 25, 2012 at 4:46 am
          7. Burnjita

            Sry mate i have to disappoint you.
            I am member of one of those "we didnt want that sov anyway"-Alliances.

            July 25, 2012 at 1:00 pm
    2. Yokohama

      Doesn't matter how many systems were taken if it's not competitive, just look at delve, it was literately a joke, we are after all playing a PvP game, and if a PvP game isn't competitive then it's pointless.

      July 24, 2012 at 4:42 pm Reply
      1. M1k3y

        You are playing a PVE game with PVP aspects. Wake up and smell the sleepers rising.

        July 24, 2012 at 11:25 pm Reply
        1. Imigo

          Not sure which game you're playing.

          July 25, 2012 at 4:47 am Reply
    3. 0.o Grunt

      I agree… I think this was mistitled. Should have been something like SOV war history of EVE.

      July 24, 2012 at 7:38 pm Reply
    4. rzr-bro

      You sir shouldnt be posting on eve news 24. Your points are backed up with logic, statistics and from a neutral POV not your own butthurt and selfish perspective like 99% of the shitbirds on this site.

      I agree, every year people bitch and cry about which alliance is 'winning' the game and is richest, funny thing is goonswarm/cfc dont even hold that many systems. Solar+pets/aaa+ROL+pets hold so much more sov than the cfc its just a shame they lack the organisation and the leadership to get the people the cfc have to match it.

      July 25, 2012 at 7:11 pm Reply
      1. Simon

        To be fair, when it comes to people that post on EN24, 82.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot, including the statistic that I just made up right now.

        July 25, 2012 at 8:33 pm Reply
  38. Grunt1

    You are dumb bro, do you know meaning of the word stagnation? Go back to church school or whatever you graduated. One sided piece of garbage not accurate at all.

    July 24, 2012 at 10:16 am Reply
  39. LOL.

    idiot. Summer has always been slow.

    July 24, 2012 at 11:27 am Reply
    1. Northerner

      So you confirm what he's suggesting?
      Also, this summer is as slow as 2009's summer numbers-wise but that year still had tons of conflicts all summer long all across the map.

      This year it's just really, really slow and boring.

      July 24, 2012 at 2:27 pm Reply
  40. Fossil

    In 2010 after the southern coalations withdrawal from the North the NC were in fact battling against Cry Havoc, Evoke and the Dead Terrorists as well as the new incarnation of tri that was NC(dot).

    Cry Havoc disbanded, Evoke, DT and NC. left Cloud Ring / Fade / Pure Blind and what followed was Test's unobstructed path to fountain.

    Apart from that all seems accurate.

    July 24, 2012 at 11:36 am Reply
  41. dani lizardov

    CCP made this game to suport the blob :)
    They wanted massive fleet fights. They got them.

    Well I agree that they have a problem, provoking this fights.

    And players are lazy an less and less motivated.
    Maybe CCP needs to make the game more dinamic.
    Maybe more fights in lesser scale is better, then one big fight a week… and then 3-4 mounts of total apatic nothing :)

    Here is my Tip: Change the Sov system. Make it easyer for smaller group of 50 to 100 to attack sov.
    Then the blob power of the day will have to send 200-300 to counter em :)
    but what if the blob power have to send 200-300 to 2-3 diffrent places at a time?
    +More fights.
    +Something people to do.
    What will be the complains:
    – 10k aliance will start crying, that they are not able to hold large chunks of SOV :)
    well thats entirely up to the 10k man aliance :) if you have 10k in it and they are not active and lazy, you probably will have problems. If they are active and well organized, no one will be able to stop em.

    July 24, 2012 at 12:44 pm Reply
  42. trollhater

    you can contribute corrections, or troll and go back to porn. we see your choice.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:24 pm Reply
    1. he won't, user banned.

      July 24, 2012 at 2:12 pm Reply
  43. ZeetFleet

    I'm not sure where you got this information from, but the SOLAR vs. xDeath fighting broke out well before they nerfed drone goo.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:46 pm Reply
  44. Themick

    A good three quaters of the map at the moment is engaged in some kind of fighting. This isn't stagnation…this is a bloodbath.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:53 pm Reply
  45. Anon

    There is only one group of people still arguing that they should be able to sit there and obliterate sub-caps with complete immunity from their invincible 100B ISK internet space-dicks. It's the sad individuals that used to fly them. The privileged idiots that believe the fact their character has 100m SP gives them some kind of right to turn the tides in any engagement where the opposing force simply doesn't have "more" titans than they do…

    Welcome to Eve Online you bitter cunt, the game where even a little Rifter can tackle a ship worth thousands of times it's own value. A game that the Goons fought to keep that way, before new players stopped signing up completely. If anything you should be thanking them…

    July 24, 2012 at 2:13 pm Reply
    1. Kratisto

      Eve always needs new players… and that simply isnt possible when you play supercapitals online.

      July 24, 2012 at 3:14 pm Reply
  46. fenistil

    In comparison to the many smaller sovs in previous years, this year brings the following look to the sov map:

    Even though CFC is powerful, they control half the map. That is shitload of space and I wonder how long that can last…. Think of: USSR

    July 24, 2012 at 2:14 pm Reply
    1. Ashesofempires

      There's a huge difference between USSR and CFC. The former Soviet Union commanded an inefficient economy that struggled to keep pace with the western world while attempting to build up to fight world war 3 in europe and two major oceans.

      The CFC commands the game's richest resource, a massive portion of the player base, which also happens to be one of the most reliably active (they log in and do shit when they are needed, not just when things are going their way), and they have lots of allies that they share their spoils with.

      July 24, 2012 at 4:20 pm Reply
  47. Renan Ruivo

    Nice article Bagehi. very interesting read. I might translate it for my alliance to read.

    Thumbs up.

    July 24, 2012 at 2:35 pm Reply
  48. Zentar

    Very unfortunate and misleading use of the word "stagnation". Try switching with the word "stability" or "peace". Otherwise good, but some misunderstandments and assumptions that weren't really accurate. For example the civil war between xXdeath/solar/RA/AAA. And reasons for CCP at times doing the things that they did.

    July 24, 2012 at 2:59 pm Reply
  49. The dark apostle

    I want deployable mine fields in space!

    July 24, 2012 at 3:11 pm Reply
  50. Dick Cheezburger

    I don't think stagnate means what you think it means.

    July 24, 2012 at 4:37 pm Reply
    1. Shogun

      Nullsec at the moment is awful not b/c of stagnation, but b/c of disparity, and lack of competition. The point of the OP I think was to point out that the unbalanced nature of null is bad for the game. The only entities that could put up a fight versus CFC have since joined the winning side. It may not be stagnation, but that dynamic(one side overpowering the other by a lot) doesn't produce good fights, and isn't fun for anyone involved.

      July 24, 2012 at 5:42 pm Reply

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