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Jester’s Trek: The price is right.

There’s a business phrase that’s applicable for me right now: “Don’t get wrapped around the axle.”

Invoking the image to the left and roughly defined, it means “don’t get so wrapped up in the details of a problem that you get tangled up in those, and stop any forward momentum working the actual problem.”  What’s often needed when you’re in danger of getting wrapped around the axle on a problem is a way to step outside the box and look at the problem from a new angle.  The problem right now?  A few months after April 24, when minerals stabilize at whatever their “new normal” is going to be, what are ships in EVE Online going to cost?

Trying to answer that question is turning out to be nearly impossible: there are too many variables right now.  The biggest variable of all is how common mining is going to be after the drone regions are stripped of drone alloys.  Right now, mining is not common.

The major problem with mining, of course, is that you have pilots stuck in helpless, defenseless mining barges and exhumers.  They can’t tank, they can’t fight, and if they’re not pre-aligned when the attack comes, they can’t run.  As a result, a mining op generally only lasts as long as there isn’t a single neutral in Local.  The moment the single neutral appears, the mining op at least temporarily ends and the miners all warp back to POSes and wait for Local to clear out again.

“You pussies, defend your mining ops,” some small-gang PvPers say, which is completely laughable.

Say you land on a heavily-defended mining op.  It contains a Rorqual, ten Hulks, but also thirty cruisers, BCs, and tacklers.  You have ten ships.  Are you going to attack the defense fleet?  Of course not!  You’re going to point up those ten Hulks and kill as many of them as you can before you collectively die in a fire.  The math doesn’t change if you have five ships, or thirty ships, or fifty ships: the Hulks die first.  They’re helpless, tank-less, and expensive.  If you have thirty ships, you’re definitely going to kill the Hulks first, then keep the Rorq pointed while you try to drive off the others.  And if you take a lot of losses while killing those ships that can’t fight back, you’ll accept those losses happily because each Hulk costs far more than your attacking ships.  You win the ISK war in spades.

This is unsustainable for the corp or alliance that intends to do any mining.  So of course they’re not going to “defend their mining ops,” and it would be stupid for them to even try to do so.  If they smell even a hint of danger to the mining op, the mining op is going to end.

Hint: this is why EVE Online needs a much tougher mining ship, something that can actually take some punches so that it lives long enough to call for help, receive reps, or Heaven forbid, actually be defensible.  None of the current mining ships even close to qualify.

So we can probably safely assume that — at least initially — mining may not be any more common than it is today.  Corps will try to start large-scale mining ops only to have those ops interrupted.  What corps, particularly null-sec corps, do to start up and protect mining ops is something that we’re going to have to wait and see.  So we can’t predict right now what’s going to happen to mineral values.

So there’s no point getting wrapped around the axle thinking about it just yet.  But still, the problem remains: how much are ships going to cost in this game in a few months?  Which is why it might be fun to think about this problem from another angle.  Let’s go completely outside the box.

Instead of asking “How much are ships going to cost?” maybe the right question to ask is “How much should ships cost?”

Let’s take a simple Drake.  Right now, the mineral components of a Drake are about 2.5 million units of trit, 600k pyerite, 170k mex, 17.5k iso, 12.5k noc, 3.6k zydrine, and 840 megacyte.  That puts the raw build cost of a Drake, assuming a ME 25 BPO and current Jita mineral buy prices as of 17 April, at just over 50 million ISK.  But how long does it take to gather those minerals?

In one way to gather the needed minerals, we’ll need 600 units of arkonor, 1000 units of crokite, 10k units of hed, 8k hemor, 50k jaspet, 333k pyro, 400k scord, and 233k trit.  That will give us everything we need for a 50 million ISK Drake, plus about 37 million ISK in other minerals (almost all of it nocxium) left over.  It works out to 293k cubic meters of ore.  That’s about 140 minutes of labor for a skilled but unbonused Hulk pilot, or about 102 minutes of labor if he’s receiving full bonuses.  He’ll make 87 million ISK in that time, or between 38 and 50 million ISK per hour if he could mine that uninterrupted, depending on whether he has bonuses or not.

That’s today.  Do you think that’s fair?  For a single pilot, it’s less than incursion money, and less than wormhole money.  But it’s more than L4 mission money, particularly in a week after missions no longer drop meta 0 loot any longer.  For a single pilot, it’s arguably about equal to haven/sanctum money.

But it also assumes one important factor: it assumes that the miner will be uninterrupted during that time.  That’s definitely not the case today!  It definitely won’t be the case tomorrow!  If a miner can only spend half his time mining (and the other half at POSs waiting for Local to clear out), then that’s between 17 and 25 million ISK per hour from mining.

Which means he’s likely to spend his time doing something else instead.

That means he’s not going to mine until either the mining ops are better protected from interruptions or… until mineral prices (and therefore, ship prices) go higher than their current values.  Probably, a lot higher.  Large-scale mining might not start in earnest until mineral prices are double what they are today.  That makes mining ops worth the trouble even if they are constantly interrupted.  But it also means that ships will cost double what they do today.

Should Drakes cost 50 million ISK?  Should they cost 100 million?  If a Drake shouldn’t cost 50 or 100 million ISK, what should it cost?  Why? 

Discuss.

Ripard Teg

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97 Comments

  1. liangnuren

    I love how you compare an AFK activity to a high concentration activity and assert they should have the same ISK value.

    April 18, 2012 at 1:29 am Reply
    1. Firstimer

      This…but no matter what, after alloys are cut out of the equation, we are really going to want happy miners in new eden…

      April 18, 2012 at 1:54 am Reply
    2. hawkeei

      Well if miners have to constantly look out for gankers or hostile fleets, then suddenly mining becomes a high concentration activity. I'm OK with that. It makes mining more interesting. Mining then becomes more like a hold the asteroid field scenario.

      April 18, 2012 at 3:15 am Reply
    3. another RA pilot

      mining is only an AFK activity if you are mining with an Iteron

      if you are using mining ships, the cargo fills in every few minutes and has to be emptied, so it's hardly an afk activity

      April 18, 2012 at 9:53 am Reply
  2. BillyBob

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U

    Because pvp in hulks is impossible.

    April 18, 2012 at 1:40 am Reply
    1. M1k3y

      It is impossible when your trying to be profitable via mining at the same time…

      April 18, 2012 at 3:04 am Reply
  3. Mining is dumb

    You've greatly undervalued lvl 4's, people are just doing it wrong.

    Kwark UK "Why would you ever mine? It's insanity! You can make 100mil per hour blitzing lvl 4's in a maelstrom, that you can train up in less than a month"

    Also from a previous article on this site. http://www.evenews24.com/2012/03/14/the-great-con

    "but my net worth was skyrocketing. However elsewhere in The Hatchery others taking the LP conversion doctrine to the next level.

    Another corpmate had found an LP store with a high volume LP conversion at over 3k/lp and another fairly low volume LP conversion at 10k/lp. A 10k/lp conversion meant that a fairly simple level 4 in highsec would pay over 50m in LP alone, providing you knew how to convert it. Naturally he kept this to himself for as long as he could but eventually the secret got out in corp. This was combined with a new approach to missioning called blitzing whereby the mission is completed in the fastest possible time to just get the mission reward, ignoring bounties. Those of you with a basic grasp of economics will understand opportunity cost, for those who do not I’ll explain it as simply as possible, while bounties and salvage = good doing next mission = gooder. There are still an awful lot of eve players who will argue to death that you should always salvage because that’s just money lying there in space waiting to be made whereas potential missions aren’t represented by little icons in space and therefore aren’t money waiting to be made. Anyway, returning to the story.

    The secret got out and pretty soon The Hatchery was blitzing 4s like crazy. It was rapidly optimised, machariels providing by far the best missioning boat with their combination of speed, projection and damage which allowed them to hit all the triggers as quickly as possible. Missioning items such as quafe ultra, reports and the keycards were bought in bulk and allowed max LP missions such as Worlds Collide to be done in under 5 minutes. Faction standings and fleeting with other people working for the same agent allowed chain declining and very, very selective cherry picking of missions to the extent that it was pretty much never required to do anything but a blitzable mission. Those who could multibox and previously salvaged behind themselves simply started dualboxing and triboxing missions, a second account paying for itself for the month in roughly three hours of missioning. As you can imagine, the money flowed in.

    I took the same role as before, acting as the liquidator for those too lazy to do it themselves and the money was staggering. If a missioner who doesn’t especially care for playing the markets wants to calculate the isk/lp of an item then assumptions such as red frog costs, raw material sell order prices and finished product buy order prices are reasonable. Each individual missioner knew that they couldn’t be bothered to run and plex a freighter account, market alts and the rest of it, it was all too much work. When I offered to convert the LP for them for a decent rate I was able to offer close to the base rate they’d get themselves and it made sense for them to take it. If it would take 20% of their PvE time to convert their LP and I offered 90% of the base value of it then they could accept that, do a few more missions in the time saved and make more isk overall. I offered a decent rate and allowed them to specialise, making more overall. Furthermore they did not need to lock up liquidity into buy orders or products on the way to the market, I paid on time, in cash, and they appreciated me for it.

    However the time taken to run the LP conversions did not increase proportionately to the number of customers. It wasn’t worth the time taken to optimise conversions for a low volume of LP but when I was converting LP for dozens of people the numbers changed pretty massively. I was buying millions of LP weekly for a fixed rate of 1.5k/lp, some weeks over 10m LP, and by buying raw materials off of buy orders and looking for the best markets to sell I was getting over 3k/lp on even the lower value conversions. The result was wealth generation on an unbelievable scale across the entire corp. My customers were making 100m/hr per account and reinvested their money into buying new accounts to multiply their income further, the traditional link between age and skillpoints was broken, in The Hatchery knowledge = skill points, if you knew the tricks then near limitless wealth was at your disposal and you could simply buy the skillpoints on the character bazaar. In no game but EVE has the chasm between those who know and those who do not been so vast and in The Hatchery, we got it."

    April 18, 2012 at 1:41 am Reply
  4. allianc

    bring back the mining apocs!

    April 18, 2012 at 1:55 am Reply
  5. AFK cloaker

    GET RID OF LOCAL 😀 PROBLEM SOLVED

    April 18, 2012 at 2:23 am Reply
    1. M1k3y

      People have said that for ages, it would not solve the problem but increase the loses for the miner, and therefore higher prices because they are spending more time replacing their ships/using a different profession.

      Also, I actually use local for communication, its called trolololol 😀

      April 18, 2012 at 3:03 am Reply
      1. AFK cloaker

        What's wrong with high ship prices? I'm kind of hoping to see smaller ships rather than everyone in battleships although those are fun to bomb. Only people who want to keep local are whiny carebears.

        April 18, 2012 at 7:25 pm Reply
    2. truefacts

      Go sit in a wormhole and your problem is solved.

      April 18, 2012 at 5:32 am Reply
    3. Darksoul

      SRY, but I don't see any way this would help and solve the problem.

      Would you be so kind and elaborate how removing local will help in this situation?

      In my opinion it would make mining even a less favoured activity as it becomes much more dangerous …

      April 18, 2012 at 2:57 pm Reply
  6. Gumpin

    Want to know why mineral price inflation is bad?

    Tech 2 ships take moon goo and assorted to build.

    Tech 1 take straight minerals.

    If you can pay 100m for a drake or 140m for an AHAC which do you buy? The AHAC probably.

    What if you don't have the SP for an AHAC? You're stuck in tech 1, but because you're lower SP you can't make 100m isk to get that drake which means you're stuck in a cruiser, But that cruiser is going to set you back all of your isk you've made in your first 3 weeks of gaming because it cost 15m just for the hull.

    So really, higher sp people will just shift to tech 2 which isn't as dependant on trit and mex prices. A tech 2 cruiser using the 15m cruiser hull, and then not needing the expensive regular minerals, to produce.

    Basically a better ship than a drake which will likely kill the drake in a fight because the only people that will get into drakes are low SP people that can't get into the tech 2 that will barely feel the costs increase compared to their abilities.

    April 18, 2012 at 2:39 am Reply
    1. Darksoul

      Maybe you are right … at the beginning.
      But you are forgetting that increased demand in T2 will mean climbing prices for T2.
      In this way the market regulates itself and T2 will again be at way higher prices than T1.

      And btw. a very good article.

      April 18, 2012 at 7:26 am Reply
    2. Artaban

      You are forgetting, that the base of tech 2 ship is tech 1 ship.

      April 18, 2012 at 11:07 am Reply
  7. M1k3y

    I agree, a more durable Hulk is needed for the mining ops that have a defense fleet. It doesn't work to have scimis/basis repping when your hulks can be alpha'd by a few short range fit battleships.

    April 18, 2012 at 3:05 am Reply
  8. Dunebugs

    Mining lasers should do [albeit weak] laser damage when aimed at ships.
    They are, after all, lasers. Ship hulls are, after all, made of minerals (mined material).
    Not out of the range of sanity.

    April 18, 2012 at 3:19 am Reply
    1. anatlasgoon

      It wouldn't be nearly enough to save Hulks. What they need is tank, not gank.

      April 19, 2012 at 6:59 am Reply
  9. hawkeei

    At the moment, T1 ships are basically packaged minerals. The difference between the value of the ship and the minerals it took to build it is negligible.

    If the 'rare' minerals actually become rare, I wonder if the profit margin of T1 manufacturing would increase due to the increased difficulty of gathering all the needed minerals together. If you cannot find zydrine in Jita, then you might start seeing manufacturing costs increase as people have to work harder to find some.

    I doubt this though since the rare minerals would just get more expensive and people will probably just keep making ships at low profit margins for the same reasons they do now. If anything, some manufacturers might get priced out of the market since the needed capital will increase. Additionally, as the total value of goods increase on easily manufactured items, the margins tend to be get tighter.

    April 18, 2012 at 3:25 am Reply
  10. Java

    I love how everyone is all of a sudden an expert on mining… jesus

    April 18, 2012 at 3:45 am Reply
    1. I happen to be. Can I answer something for you ?

      April 18, 2012 at 4:03 am Reply
      1. truefacts

        Yes, you can.

        Howmanychuckscanawoodchuckchuckifawoodchuckcouldchuckwood?

        April 18, 2012 at 5:27 am Reply
        1. true lies

          Youwouldsuckasmuchwoodofchuckastherewastosuckifyoucouldsuckchuck.

          April 18, 2012 at 6:01 am Reply
          1. HR4Ever

            lolthatwouldsuck

            April 18, 2012 at 8:25 am
          2. c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker! B)

            April 18, 2012 at 10:14 am
          3. ...

            finish him!

            April 18, 2012 at 2:18 pm
          4. Anonymouse

            Friendship!?!

            April 18, 2012 at 2:28 pm
    2. Jim A

      Since you can now mine in hi sec and get over 30 mil/hr just selling the minerals at Jita dump prices, people have become experts in mining.

      April 18, 2012 at 2:41 pm Reply
  11. AlloK

    Or just make the mining ships cost less to make(cheaper than BCs) that way, people can lose them but still make a profit from mining. Don't buff the fucking ship, just make it's cost more in line with how easily it dies.

    April 18, 2012 at 3:53 am Reply
    1. With what's happening to mineral costs (you may want to read the article again….you may have only read the first paragraph), even if they cut the mineral and component requirements in half, a Hulk will soon be just as expensive.
      This is NOT a solution.

      April 18, 2012 at 4:02 am Reply
  12. Newbie

    I'm a little worried what this will do to new players too. "Welcome to the game pilot. You need to save for 6 months before you can fly anything beyond your beginning ship! We hope you continue to play Eve Online!"

    April 18, 2012 at 3:58 am Reply
    1. DarthNefarius

      It has seems to already have happened right now ( or into the next week if the current hyperinflation trend of ship prices continues ) & if ship prices keep getting worse dunno how CCP is going to fix things unless they start seeding ships for 3 month old & less pilots to keep them in the game

      April 18, 2012 at 4:39 am Reply
      1. deal widit

        This is why alliances like goons and test which are so newb friendly with handing out hulls will keep growing and blobbing and growing and blobbing.

        April 18, 2012 at 6:02 am Reply
        1. Wilson Yu

          yea because goonswarm seems to take care of their own players. I mean they have one of the best ship replacement program out there meaning they don't really care if they lose their ships. Plus with their income boosted by technium moons, they can afford to lose a lot of ships.

          April 18, 2012 at 8:03 am Reply
  13. ...

    What should ship prices be? I'll answer your question with a question of my own. Is it more fun to have ships blow up in pvp, to spin that ship in a station, or to 'enjoy' the horrible pve eve has to offer? Most people will say pvp.

    The cheaper ships are (relative to time spent obtaining that ship), the more of them people will risk in fights and thus lose to other players. Grind games suck. I didn't mind losing my battlecruisers last time I played eve because it roughly took me an hour to earn the isk to replace it. If it now takes 2 hours of mindless ratting, you increase my grind by double without providing any value.

    Solution? Increase all mining ships shield hp and cargo hold by x-factor (racial and ORE miners) and increase amount of mineral mined by mining lasers and strip miners by x-factor. Give miners some sort of simple automation program (not a full blown bot that warps off as soon as a hostile comes into the system.)

    Oh, and fix all the worthless low level ships in the game. CCP has stated it wants to retain new players. They can start by giving them more choices when it comes to ship choice. (And fyi, changing destroyers and bc's into racial ships like they suggested at fanfest is an asinine idea – don't take away my bc5.)

    April 18, 2012 at 4:09 am Reply
    1. ...

      I'm also in favor of creating player owned deadspace complexes where npcs mine mineral for the player to come collect, but that's a more 'complex' system.

      April 18, 2012 at 4:12 am Reply
      1. Wombat_King

        isn't that how PI works?

        April 18, 2012 at 4:37 am Reply
        1. bots!

          I was about to say isn't that how bots work.

          April 18, 2012 at 7:52 am Reply
          1. DarthNefarius

            I was about to say isn't that how mining moon goo works

            April 18, 2012 at 10:04 am
          2. ...

            pi… bots… mining moon goo…

            Sure, except that any player could come along and wreck your stuff if you're not there to defend it yourself.

            April 18, 2012 at 2:17 pm
          3. DarthNefarius

            They'd have a tuff time wrecking PI goods until Dust comes… guess you can take over the POCO in LO/NULL but still there are planetary launches

            April 19, 2012 at 5:18 pm
      2. Someguy

        Screw mining, replace it with a system like PI. Let me come once or twice a week and collect minerals. If I can make Robotics using fully autonomous production facilities…why in gods name and I driving around in a laser equipped space bulldozer collecting piles of dirt?!

        More clicks for the click god.

        April 18, 2012 at 6:48 pm Reply
        1. Darksoul

          Ther are people who enjoy mining …
          Me for example …

          April 18, 2012 at 8:25 pm Reply
    2. lol

      ships are way to cheap , it almost doesnt hurt to loose shit

      April 18, 2012 at 6:49 am Reply
      1. ...

        That's your opinion. Not everyone has billions in their wallet.

        April 18, 2012 at 2:14 pm Reply
        1. fucku

          Not everyone but almost everyone.

          April 19, 2012 at 1:23 am Reply
    3. random newb

      cheap ships lessen the value of your pvp experience, on the losing or winning side. If it gets any cheaper we'll all be playing WoW "oh you died? here's a new ship, get back out there now while the fight is still on"

      It should hurt when you lose a BC, and you should be really pissed when you lose a BS. If you lose a capital or super, there should be some yelling involved.

      On the other side, when you pop that asshole in a drake or abaddon, blowing up that more expensive ship is your increased value. You just made that guy go back to carebearing for X number of hours, instead of half or a third of X.

      April 18, 2012 at 10:26 am Reply
      1. ...

        I love how your rebuttal is akin to, "cheap ships should be shit." Why? Why should anything be terrible? If a ship doesn't have a role, it shouldn't be in the game. Red vs. Blue pvp in cheap stuff all the time and it appears they enjoy the game much more than other people.

        I'd rather lose some of the pain of losing stuff (it's never going to go away completely to the point of it being wow-like simply for the fact that you have to regather your items from the market) than waiting hours for your enemies to undock because they're too scared to lose their stuff. Eve should be "spaceships-shooting-each-other-in-the-face-online" not "I'm-to-pansy-to-undock-so-I'll-sit-in-the-station-and-spin-my-ship-online".

        April 18, 2012 at 2:13 pm Reply
  14. DarthNefarius

    Expect near hyperinflation for a month to two. I thinks an ESCLATION of inflation will create a Market INFERNO :) The biggest losers as always will be 3 month old & less noobs with these ship prices.

    April 18, 2012 at 4:42 am Reply
  15. Buzz

    The worst part is that even in HS a hulk can be alpha'd by a destroyer 300 mil for a 7 mil destroyer

    April 18, 2012 at 6:04 am Reply
  16. Ituralde

    I honestly don't know why a Hulk shouldn't have ~80-90k EHP. That would fix the majority of issues. Let it go up to 150k on a ganglink+ faction fit. That would let it get repped vs a larger gang and give it a minute of squealing in local vs a smaller gang, but it would still eventually die.

    That and improve the yield from non-strip miners and mining drones and give the Armageddon and Megathron +25m3 drone bay.

    If you then targeted the following on high end ores:

    30-45m/hr per BS
    45-60m/hr per Covetor
    55-70m/hr per Hulk

    Use that for overall yield targets. That would make battleships suboptimal but still worth mining in, especially in large numbers.

    The goal here is to acknowledge that a large scale mining operation should be targetable and catchable and beatable, but shouldn't necessarily die in seconds the way they do now. A 20 man gang can currently solo 150 hulks if they stick around. A 150-man mining fleet in the future should be better equipped to hold on and arrange a defense after the encounter has begun.

    April 18, 2012 at 6:05 am Reply
  17. Mining is dumb

    Buff mining ships, triple the mining yield and triple the hold size on all of them. Problem solved.

    April 18, 2012 at 6:06 am Reply
    1. double it!

      Actually yeah, what would happen if you doubled the mining yield on a hulk. Instead of mining out 140 minutes to get a hulk's worth of minerals you'd mine 70 minutes. Lets say that the only limiting factor for miners is time and given the opportunity they'll still mine just as much but get twice as much ore. So now there is twice as much ore (in ships) on the market. So after 140 minutes there'd be 2 drakes on the market instead of one. And selling one drake for 50 mil that takes 140 minutes to mine up gives you the same isk per hour as selling two drakes at 25 mil that took 70 minutes each to mine up.

      This assumes that if drake prices were cut in half that consumption would double. Based on what I have seen in lowsec I'd bet yeah more people would buy (and do risky things with) more drakes.

      There is also a chance that half price drakes could lead to more than double the demand. Do you think that for every 1 person willing to buy a 50 mil drake that you could find 3 people who want to buy a 25 mil drake? And if that happens the industrialists could raise the prices of drake a little bit (say to 30-35 mil each) until the demand matches what they can pump out.

      April 18, 2012 at 7:50 am Reply
  18. guest

    fuck you all im rich and have lots of sp, ty for playing.

    April 18, 2012 at 6:22 am Reply
  19. Boyah

    One other way to look at it is: no mater how high or low mineral prices are, it will always take the miner the same amount of time to get the materials to build that drake.

    April 18, 2012 at 7:17 am Reply
  20. RMT sucks

    For a long time we had to much miners and shit in game.. now the status of the miners might get abit better. After all… if we got no miners and builders we wont have any ships to be killed in or to kill with 😛

    I did some mining when i started to play eve but it is a ton of work with little or no profit in it and any fucking n00b can warp into you and kill your with almost no effort…and still the ship cost as much a HAC or worse. No protection.. no tank.. no nothing.. also CCP needs to make mining more fun.. more activity.. not just sit like idiot and watch a asteroid for ever.. witch also why ppl get mining bots so that they can AFK mine.. and that is not good for the game. I still think that the change that CCP is doing is awesome and is needed to attack a problem.

    April 18, 2012 at 8:03 am Reply
    1. Darksoul

      "also CCP needs to make mining more fun.. more activity.. not just sit like idiot and watch a asteroid for ever"
      SRY, but that wouldn't be such a good idea as you think …
      Most miner I know are multiboxing with more than one Hulk. I would says the typical miner uses 3 accounts as an average. Not all Hulks, but the majority.
      If you make this wrong … it becomes nearly impossible to multibox. So you are effectly reducing the numer of Hulks…

      April 18, 2012 at 2:51 pm Reply
      1. Lomsor

        So you say the game shouldn't be fun because it could lower the total minerals available. I think that miner should have fun mining with one hulk … if it's fun enough 5 others will start mining and the problem is solved on your part. More people, less alts.
        Only con is that CCP will lose "some" subscriptions.

        April 18, 2012 at 3:00 pm Reply
        1. Darksoul

          What I am saying is that your proposal could make it impossible for quite a number of miner to play eve as they like it.

          April 18, 2012 at 8:33 pm Reply
  21. I remember when a drake *was* 50m ISK. All ship prices have been coming down for a long time now.

    April 18, 2012 at 8:41 am Reply
    1. ...

      I think that 50m price tag they were referring to is the price of the whole fit.

      April 18, 2012 at 2:21 pm Reply
  22. Random Jack*ss

    Here is a suggestion, instead of complaining about the various changes that CCP decides to make, we come up with some kind of solution that doesn't involve blaming CCP and asking for a nerf/buff of some sort.

    I know absolutely nothing about mining and its intricacies but I know as a buyer of the products that if prices increase I'm going to figure out a way to pay for it. Adapt or die , that is what we should be focusing on, not finding 1000 and 1 ways of explaining the increase.

    April 18, 2012 at 8:58 am Reply
  23. Random Miner

    Wow, all this attention suddenly on mining; very amusing.
    All you gotta do is make the T2's better tankable. Or make a new ship that mines a little slower then the rest but can tank way more. Hell, for only low and null they can creat a miner thats more tankable and has more cargo. But a miner with teeth idea is also interesting. Would be funny to see miners suddenly start training gun skills… lol

    April 18, 2012 at 9:17 am Reply
    1. Haiku

      Or you don't have to change any game mechanics, just change your ship, stop being a pussy and try blowing them up.

      April 18, 2012 at 12:37 pm Reply
      1. Random Miner

        your statement made no sense to me… blowing who up? And what game mechanics did I suggest changing?

        April 19, 2012 at 12:50 am Reply
  24. -A- Spectator

    After reading the article and most of the comments i figured most of the
    comments are based on first impulse on a other comment. So now most comments
    are about mining and making stronger and better mining ships. I actually
    read a person suggesting that battleships should have get there drone bay
    extended (i guess for mining drones but what do i know :) ), just a small side
    note: i don't think battleships are build for mining but that is just a small
    IMHO.

    Well here we go. I will first make myself look very bad by saying SUPER CAPS
    and TITANS ARE the BEST ships in game! Now 99% of the people actually reading
    this will think something like "STFU idiot " or "Death to all super caps" or
    "How does this relate to this article".

    Now i can sum up a lot of forum post and evenews24 articles about supers being
    bad. They are, according a huge chunk of the player base, actually so bad that
    CCP had to do something about them. Well CCP did change some stuff on the moms
    like lowering the hp, removing the powerfull drone waves, etc.

    After the nerf was implemented people where still like "OMG OMG OMG…to
    po..wer.full..must…di..e!". This ladies and gentlemen is why they are
    changing the drone regions. Because by ratting and looting (bot or not) in the
    drone regions the minerals for a SUPER/TITAN can be collected within
    hours/days.

    But instead of being gratefull that building supers and titans is slowed down
    (for now), you all are concerned about your drake price. Sure after the patch
    prices will go up. But in the end all types of player groups (big alliance or a
    small 2 man fleet) will fly sub-capitals. This is why the prices will
    stabelize after a couple of weeks and you can still get your sub-caps for the
    prices you can get them now. But one big difference, there is no place where a
    massive amount of minerals is produced so people now have to make a choice to
    either produce 100 drakes for the greater good.. or 1 SUPER CAP.

    And discuss again!

    April 18, 2012 at 10:16 am Reply
  25. GoonGrunt

    If you have a Rorqual and 10 Hulks in belt, in most cases you just need the Hulks to fit a little buffer and a few Scimitars. Most roamings haven't enough man-/firepower to get the Hulks destroyed with this setup. That's much better then 30 DPS-ships to defend the Hulks.

    And because a defense-fleet will just stand around, it's much better to get them to the gates and camp there. It prevents enemies to get to the Hulks, therefore losses weight much more for them.

    But still, mining in low- and nullsec involves more pilots then anything other, but grants right now only the half of what ratting does to a single pilot. But the resolution shouldn't be higher mineral costs. That would inflict nearly every pilot in higher item costs. Miner would get more money for the minerals, but would also have to pay a lot more ISK for needed items. That's a null clearance.

    With the current game mechanics miner will never get the ones who are paid fairly for what they are doing. More tank or a better ability to defend against enemies wouldn't help. They just have drones to get DPS on enemies, that's far away from being enough to take a threat at enemies. They would always need help to defend.

    April 18, 2012 at 10:26 am Reply
    1. S'totan

      ya…. tell that to a 1400mm fit alpha tornado…. but good try though,

      April 18, 2012 at 1:50 pm Reply
    2. I just don't know

      The issue with a Hulk is that now a T1 Destroyer can pop a Hulk in a 0.7 system before Concord kills him and is able to pod the miner too. I have suggested that what needs to happen is that CCP increase the structure HP to 10,000 for a Hulk and to the equivulent level for other exhumers and mining barges. This is a heck of a lot more logical. The 10,000 structure hit points was based on a comparison to the Orca. At the moment mining ships have a structure that is as strong as a wet paper bag, makes no sense to me at all…

      April 18, 2012 at 7:38 pm Reply
  26. fabs

    no miner is going to do a defense fleet since every pilot not mining is less total yield..

    April 18, 2012 at 10:28 am Reply
    1. Haiku

      Would it be THAT difficult for all the hulk pilots to swap out to a cruiser/BC? Miners can't be so bad that they all can't fly a BC of some description can they? Bigger your mining fleet the bigger your defence fleet is when local gets invaded, you never know you might even have some fun.

      April 18, 2012 at 12:32 pm Reply
      1. Darksoul

        The problem are cloaky afk neuts. They wait and wait …
        And when you think he is only an afk cloaker and start mining … then perhaps after an hour he suddenly stands in the belt and pops you …
        No changing into a BC will help in this situation.
        So as long as there is a neut in the system there will be no mining …

        April 18, 2012 at 2:41 pm Reply
        1. Aher

          And that afk neut pops a cyno . Free killmails !
          (btw just 2 days ago i got careless and ignored a stabber entering local (i was multiboxing dual tengus ). He appeared in my anom in less than 30secs and afterwards when checked the char it was usually flying a cyno stabber , one that puts a fleet of 10 (or even 100) on top of you ). At least i'v had the common sense to align when he entered local and after seeing him landing in the site the escape was 3 rapid clicks .

          April 18, 2012 at 7:18 pm Reply
  27. Spank

    Heres my idea for solving the minerals shortage in high sec, Mining missions. The agents are already there just set them to take 10-15% of the total minerals available at the mission site. Missions will be at range of 2-3 jumps max (for logistic convenience).
    Level 4 missions should be 1/3 in value as the null sec belts – thus null-sec mining stays more lucrative yet the supply for the market demands can be provided from highsec.

    pros:
    – No need to change the Hulk tanking/capacity.
    – A bit safer activity than mining in belts and be ganked by week old asshat, as he needs to scan you down first (more skill and effort).
    – mobility, bit "more interesting" then the dull belt mining (need to move ships and logistics, corp activity).
    – anti-bot, harder to get bots doing this as missions sites are dynamic.
    – newb friendly, option for new players to develop a good isk income profession/platfom.
    – more mining corporations to throw the new war decking system at.
    – faction standings.

    cons:
    – will draw miners out of null (not really if they are high SP)
    – a lot of work for CCP to implement.

    your opinions?

    April 18, 2012 at 10:48 am Reply
    1. Darksoul

      Nice idea … I like it

      April 18, 2012 at 2:44 pm Reply
  28. Nullsec miner

    Anyone who uses a Rorqual in a belt deserves to lose it. Rorqs sit in a POS, running links and compressing the ore, if there's no station nearby. It's a simple matter to carry a medium tower and enough fuel for a few hours in the Rorq's cargo, so you can setup pretty much anywhere and still have some safety.

    Don't forget, T2 hulls need T1 hulls as a base (as do most T2 modules, the exception is ammo), so T2 hull prices will rise just as much as T1 in the next few weeks.

    April 18, 2012 at 11:01 am Reply
  29. anon

    I guess you could use an orca as a jet can and just pilot it and scoop the hulk if shit happens. Orcas if fit right have lots of EHP. But you can't afk mine that way so I guess it's a bad idea.

    April 18, 2012 at 11:15 am Reply
    1. Darksoul

      SRY, but I am hearing a lot of the "afk miner" …
      Normally there is no afk miner in 0.0 !!!
      A Hulk with full boost has to empty its cargo every 104 seconds!
      Tell me how you can do this afk?

      The next fact is very simple: An afk miner means a dead hulk … One neut which you don't see is enough …

      April 18, 2012 at 3:17 pm Reply
  30. Taz

    ORE ships should have a +200% boost to shields and an added low slot (+CPU) for a DC2

    April 18, 2012 at 12:25 pm Reply
    1. Fishfillet

      Hulk needs tech two resists, and alittle pg/cpu buff.

      April 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm Reply
      1. Urziel99

        I'd settle for both.

        April 18, 2012 at 3:35 pm Reply
        1. hurr

          This makes sense. Take some of that hp ccp ripped from the terrible super pilots of eve and put it on hulks. Make it require 2 or more tornados to gank one.

          April 18, 2012 at 6:07 pm Reply
  31. sup

    Just read one of the most popular mining guides. When it was written a hulk costed 500m, and I imagine that other ships were also in that price range. So no I don't think higer mineral prices is a problem. This will actually make people mine instead of bot, and buy 1 bs instead of 10.

    April 18, 2012 at 1:07 pm Reply
    1. Someguy

      That guide was written not long after a major market change. It the same guide it quotes the prices once being as low as 120m

      April 18, 2012 at 6:50 pm Reply
  32. Rorqual pilot

    Give Rorquals and Orca's an ECM burst device in the highslots based on current game mechanic lay out and give them a small/medium bonus to those skills per blabla level.

    1- it draws the solo miners to form up groups and receive bonusses (more ore)
    2- it gives them a change to "warpout" when enemies tackle any of the mining ships.
    3- everyone hates ecm anyway, just through miners under that and all is solved.

    April 18, 2012 at 3:39 pm Reply
    1. Round & Round We Go

      Battle Orcas! (I'm assuming you meant remote ECM burst)

      April 18, 2012 at 5:26 pm Reply
      1. hurr

        Yes, because what eve needs is more, broken, chance based modules on more ships…

        April 18, 2012 at 6:03 pm Reply
    2. Darksoul

      I don't know how you organize a mining operation, but a Roqual has no business in the belt.
      It should stand in a POS and give bonuses and press ore.
      A Rorqual in the belt is way to dangerous.

      And Orcas are just long enough in the belt to fetch the contis …

      April 18, 2012 at 9:26 pm Reply
  33. Corpyleader

    For alliances it's actually profitable and logical to have in-house indy corporations mine and produce the shipstocks for an alliance. It was semi for the last years but with these prices atm that might be a much more handier idea.

    Keep drake prices on lets say 50m. If jita price goes any higher, pay the indy corp a fee per ship. So it still sits under 50m and the corp still gets payed. (moon goo is pricey.)

    April 18, 2012 at 3:44 pm Reply
  34. widot grunt

    For veteran players, how much will this matter now that we have dynamic insurance payouts? That is, if higher ship prices automatically lead to higher insurance payouts, won't our "ask risk" amount stay roughly constant?

    April 18, 2012 at 3:55 pm Reply
  35. Java

    (1) Align to safe; (2) Bubble the gate; (3) Watch Local (4) Have an alternative location to mine in if you get camped (5) avoid having to read this post because everyone thinks they know how to mine all of a sudden or something is wrong with it.

    I am a pro miner, everything is working as intended… move along and write something you have done more than 5 minutes…

    April 18, 2012 at 5:01 pm Reply
    1. hurr

      oH really. How pro are you when ur alignment drifts you out of mining range every 5 minutes? Dumbass.

      April 18, 2012 at 6:05 pm Reply
  36. No one important

    Dead-end, cyno-jammed system. Bubble the gate. Bubble intercepts between gate and miners. Camp the gate. Miners protected.

    It's not perfect, but works well enough.

    I take it Ripard Teg doesn't live in 0.0?

    April 18, 2012 at 5:28 pm Reply
    1. AFK cloakers

      ninja an AFK cloaker in there with a covops cyno, then get a black ops gang a few light years away. Then wait a few days for the people who live there to get frustrated and move or go mining anyway and jump them.

      This is why I hate nullsec

      April 18, 2012 at 5:35 pm Reply
      1. No one important

        AFK cloakers affect miners as much as ratters as much as anybody else. They need to be fixed, but aren't a problem specific to mining.

        April 18, 2012 at 6:26 pm Reply
        1. Someguy

          This. The second you get an industry 3 system, flies start buzzing around. You check these people's kb and histories and they aren't there to pvp. They are there to shut the system down. You can't ignore them because just because they aren't on any km's today doesn't mean they aren't about to open up a cyno with a hot drop of death on your 300m per hull mining fleet.

          A nerf to afk cloaking could potentially stabilize prices faster after this shake up.

          April 18, 2012 at 6:40 pm Reply

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