Comments

[spoiler show=”Editor’s Note”]He is one of the most active bloggers in EVE and has some good insights which go beyond the typical EN24 scope. We are proud to present selected stories from this magnificent internet spaceship blogger. If you would like to read more we invite you to visit his blog here.[/spoiler]

Jester’s Trek: Kill of the Week – FRAUD.

There’s really only one kill to choose this week:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13002815&nolimit

On paper, it looks pretty straight-forward: a super-carrier dies to a good-size capital ship gang.  Helicity Boson (who was in on the kill) posted some really wonderful pictures to go with it.  The Hel really is a remarkably pretty ship, one of the best-looking capital ships in the game.

Of course, though, the actual how of this kill wasn’t quite so nice.

Now before I say anything else, let me be clear: I’m as big a fan of dead supers as the next guy.  I loves me dead supers.  I also have absolutely nothing against scams in general.  I don’t participate in them or instigate them myself, but I completely accept that they are a part of life in EVE Online.  Clear?  Some of you are definitely going to want to yell at me in a few paragraphs.  If you want to yell at me for actual cause, go for it.  But please don’t make your yelling about “hurr-durr HTFU Jester, it’s only space pixels.”

Because this time, it apparently wasn’t.

The following day, the story of how the Hel died came to light.  Go out and read the post.  It’s apparently written from the perspective of Enochia Starr.  But short version: under the guise of inviting this guy along for some carrier kills, they talked him into jumping his super to a cyno where a hostile fleet was waiting.  And again, this is nothing at all new.  It happens in New Eden every single day.

Important pro-tip: if you wouldn’t trust someone with $1000 of real life money, then don’t jump your super where they tell you to jump your super.  Easy.  This guy broke that rule and his super died for it.  This trap was particularly insidious because even if they guy had neutral-scouted the cyno before hand, he would have seen exactly what he expected to see: a capital ship fleet and supporting sub-cap fleet of a good composition to kill some carriers.

Again, if that was all this was, then no big deal.  Happens all the time.

But these guys apparently took it a step farther than that.

Here’s the video of the kill, apparently provided by Euripodes, who was flying an all-neut Armageddon for the fight.  Neuts were an important part of this gank, and in addition to the Geddon, there were a pair of Curses and a Bhaalgorn on the mail.(1)

Both Enochia’s writing and Euripodes’s comments attached to the video make it clear that part of the hook to get this guy to commit his Hel was to “teach him how to fly it”.  Both mention that they gave the Hel pilot “tips” on what mods to fit and what mods not to fit.  In his Youtube notes(2) for the video, Euripodes adds this:

After Talking him into spending some hard earned cash on time codes so he could raise the isk needed to put some bling on it…

And if that’s true, that means a real-world crime was committed here.

Fraud, by definition, is the intentional deception of an individual of money or valuables done for personal gain.  This qualifies.  What apparently happened is that, in the process of “training” this pilot how to fit his super-cap, he was talked into spending real money on GTCs.  He was then told to spend the ISK made from those GTCs on high-end dead-space modules worth billions of ISK…

Billions of ISK that the “trainers” intended to remove from the wreck that they would soon create.  Boys and girls, that’s called intent to defraud.  And since more than one person was involved, that’s also called conspiracy with intent to defraud.  These are real world crimes for which they slap hand-cuffs on people.  They’re also clearly EULA/TOS violations.

If you had a niggling feeling in your head that this kill was “wrong” for some reason that you couldn’t put your finger on?  Yeah.  That’s where it came from.

Now, in terms of the direct fraud, the amount of money here isn’t all that impressive.  If we limit the personal gain of those on the kill-mail to just the mods that dropped, two billion ISK worth of shield mods and fighter-bombers, then the financial gain to the defrauders was $80 U.S.  Basically, the pilots involved held up this guy at an ATM.  On the other hand, it could also be argued that they caused the financial loss of $1000 U.S. to this pilot.  And in most U.S. states, that amount is worthy of a felony.

So yeah, go ahead and start yelling at me.  But in my opinion, the people involved in this loss-mail went too far.  Scamming a guy into a super-cap loss is one thing, and it’s no big deal.  But scamming him into spending real money on his super so that you can then steal the resulting mods from him is morally wrong.  In my opinion, the value of those mods should be removed from the game.  Then the Hel pilot should be interviewed by CCP to find out who, if anyone, talked him into spending real money fitting out this super.  If it turns out he did purchase GTCs, then in my opinion everyone he names should be banned from EVE for 30 days for a EULA/TOS violation.

Blowing up space pixels is one thing, and I’m all for it.  But this time it went too far.  EVE is real?  This time, it was a little too real.

EDIT (13/Apr/2012): Just to be very clear: my accusation of fraud and EULA/TOS violations extends only to those players — if any — who talked this pilot into spending real money on GTCs and then spending the resulting ISK on his super-cap fitting.  Helicity says that he is not one of those people and I believe that.  The pilots of Stop Exploding You Cowards should be examined more closely.

(1) +1 Internet to Euripodes for correctly counter-cycling all of his neuts and for using his cap boosters properly and at the right times.  -5 Internets to Emfive, who apparently fit his all neut-Bhaalgorn with meta 3 neuts.  Shame.  Shame shame shame on you.  -1 Internet to Helicity himself, whose Curse is also apparently badly fit.
(2) For context, here is the entire intro text to the video (sic throughout):

A “friend” of ours decided to buy a Hel with no idea how to fit or fly it. After Talking him into spending some hard earned cash on time codes so he could raise the isk needed to put some bling on it and being the good hearted bunch of pirates we are we decided to offer a once in a lifetime opportunity to join the Dark Intenionz super capital ship pilots school. We told him we could go on a POS bash together and we would train him how to fly it. betrayal follows. Not the best camera work on my part but i didnt think i would be the only guy to fraps it.

Ripard Teg

[spoiler show=”Did we mess up?”]
We want to give you guys the best possible intel, to post as fast as we can confirm it, but Eve being :Eve: is quite confusing. If we messed up with our intel, please contact us directly [email protected], provide the proof of it and we’ll correct it immediately noting the change and bringing the correction on top of the article list.[/spoiler]

If you would like to send intel or contribute, feel free to use the form below:

[spoiler show=”Submit Intel Here”]

[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

243 Comments

  1. Dirk MacGirk

    Neutral to care on either side here, but people need to stop looking for real life crimes in every crappy thing that happens in eve. How a pilot decides to fund the imaginary items they buy is up to them. Unless they were coerced in real life to buy those GTCs then no real life fraud has occurred. If they were "talked into it" in game, that was in game. What they chose to do out of game is on them personally. This whole line of analysis is either a troll or an attempt to actually make eve real. You do know that just because CCP says "Eve is Real" is just a marketing ploy, right? For those who haven't seen sunlight in a while, it's not really real so quit trying to make it so for everyone else.

    April 14, 2012 at 3:19 pm Reply
  2. Ace

    I hope they do something…..Games are suppose to be fun….Kids today…you give them the books and they eat them……Social darwinism is in effect

    April 14, 2012 at 3:38 pm Reply
    1. Wilson Yu

      Yea and fun is well, kind of subjective. Point is, someone did have fun stepping on the super cap pilots trust and soul. The super cap pilot might not have fun but eh its his dumb ass that got him kill. If i am driving a car and someone just jump in front of my car and dies, did i kill him? Am i responsible for his death? Answer that =)

      April 14, 2012 at 11:47 pm Reply
  3. Zeroniss

    Unfortunately, as much of a dick move as this was, this isn't a real world crime. Let me expand.

    The use of real world money to convert into GTC is the sole transaction that can be governed by real world law. As long as the money is not intercepted in between Point A – The buyer's wallet, and Point B – CCP's wallet, it is a legitimate transaction. The intention of the transaction was always to convert said funds into GTC. This was done successfully.

    Now the second part. Was he persuaded to purchase the GTC? As it stands, yes, he may have been. However since the intention of the persuader was not one to defraud the individual in the real world, his criminality is largely voided. The cash successfully transferred to CCP and was successfully sold and turned into funds.

    At this stage it is within the game realm and is therefore governed by the rules of the game – which dictate quite clearly that the events that occured were perfectly fine.

    Is it a fairly dick move to convince someone to do this because you know it will mean them spending real world cash? Absolutely. I'm sure Enochia is thoroughly ashamed of himself, and even if he isn't, it isn't our place to make him feel that shame.

    Is it illegal? Sadly not. Should it be punished by out of game sanctions? Absolutely not. Don't kill the sandbox please.

    April 14, 2012 at 5:13 pm Reply
    1. Grunt101

      Since there is a market value for isk, although not sanctioned by ccp, and I think it is very likely that a scam like this is illegal in some countries at least. Usually it would require that the 'criminal' had the intent to gain economic value by deceiving the victim. If this story is accurate, I think it could be argued to be the case here.

      April 14, 2012 at 8:37 pm Reply
      1. ???

        Then i guess ccp should make market/contract/trade scamming in eve a bannable offense?

        banning scammers will not make me shed any tears either but you are going on the path of a slippery slope.

        April 14, 2012 at 8:57 pm Reply
      2. Really?

        Yes those countries might be ummm China. Which has their own server with more rules and arent allowed legally on tranquility. So if your Country has issues with the game content or interaction with others then you might as well convince your Country to ban playing eve online in your there. When that happens can i have your stuff?

        April 14, 2012 at 9:08 pm Reply
    2. Factition

      Actually, regardless of whether the transaction between the Hel pilot and CCP was compete, there was still a crime here. Whether they convinced him to buy food, a donkey, or hookers is irrelevant, and whether these transactions were proper is irrelevant. What is relevant is they convinced him to part with real life money with the express intent of removing the outcome of the transaction from him (whether it be ISK, food, a donkey or a hooker).

      April 15, 2012 at 1:19 pm Reply
      1. Rol

        But they didn't remove the outcome of the transaction from him. He purchased game experience from CCP, not goods — not even internet pixels. CCP gave him game experience.

        CCP doesn't guarantee positive game experience; games wouldn't be fun if you were guaranteed to win.

        April 15, 2012 at 5:24 pm Reply
    3. EStarr

      Got it cleared by GM's no issues.

      April 15, 2012 at 6:50 pm Reply
  4. lol orpans..

    u fing morons need a life..

    April 14, 2012 at 7:23 pm Reply
  5. Supers must die.

    OK does anyone else see the double standard here? When CCP announced that PLEX could be blowed up and lost forever, some people were in an uproar, others were claiming we should get a class action suit running against ccp. But finally an opinion won out against such harsh actions. The opinion was.

    When someone converts GTC to plex, the transaction is complete. It does not matter if the plex are destroyed or not, because virtual currency has no real world value. Only simulated value.

    But see everyone here is crying foul over almost the same thing. If they convinced the guy to buy GTC or just gave him a fit and he bought the GTC himself, it doesnt matter. He was the one who took the actions that completed a real world transaction and turned it into isk. I am sorry, but once USD becomes isk, its fair game.

    Absolutely NO ONE would be crying the same foul if we had one of these guys bitching and moaning one of the isk scammers in Jita convinced a guy to buy GTC to play his "Ill double your money" game. Which is exactly the same thing.

    This guy chose to fly with non alliance or coalition members and paid the price. He broke the cardinal rule of eve online. Trust no one.

    April 14, 2012 at 7:28 pm Reply
  6. AlloK

    I've seen a LOT of people come back with the response: This is EVE, not the REAL world you can't commit crimes in Eve.
    Think about this for a second:
    Where are you sitting right now? In your space ship, or in your computer chair?

    let it sink in…
    There you go, now you get it.

    April 14, 2012 at 7:44 pm Reply
    1. AlloK

      'intent to defraud' is the crime, and to a certain extent conspiracy to commit fraud.
      These are illegal no matter where you commit them.
      If INTENT can be proven, which it can in this case. There is a crime.

      April 14, 2012 at 7:47 pm Reply
      1. Wilson Yu

        umm dude this is eve, fraud is everywhere, literally. Period enough said, who ever wrote this article is a person who thinks eve = rl. whatever man, whine as much as you want but nothing is going to happen. Once dollars turn into plex, you can't say oh noes he decieved me when i turn this $$$ into isk. blah blah blah. Grow up, seriously

        April 14, 2012 at 11:39 pm Reply
        1. AlloK

          "this is eve" is NOT an excuse. Eve is just the medium where the potential crime took place, think about it. Real World > Eve Universe, since the Eve universe exists WITHIN the real World. Therefore any REAL WORLD law will supercede anything put forth by the rules of Eve.

          IF, and I am saying IF, it can be proven that Player A convinced/coerced Player B to spend REAL LIFE MONEY, with the INTENT TO DECIEVE Player B and "rob" him of said goods. A real world crime has been commited. If you don't see it you are fucking blind an need to take a step back from Eve, then look at the big picture.

          April 15, 2012 at 3:03 am Reply
          1. Wilson Yu

            You are fucking blind, Player A did not convinced Player B to buy plex to turn into isk to buy modules for his ship. Player A solely said that he should fit his super cap properly. Player B didn't have cash so he buy plex which is his own decision. Player B even ask Player A what website he should buy the plex from. Player A did not decieve Player B, Player A advice Player B to fit his ship properly. Have you even fly a super capital, a normal super capital have the most expensive gear on it. Geeze you don't even know how to fly a super cap, get the fuck out.

            April 15, 2012 at 9:14 pm
          2. Wilson Yu

            btw here is proof you stupid piece of cunt who can't understand shit. You fucking faggot should read this motherfucker. http://i.imgur.com/FSi5N.jpg you just got own nigga, what you got to say about that bitch??!!! harden the fuck off, you stupid retard son of a bitch. =)

            April 15, 2012 at 9:16 pm
      2. Wilson Yu
        April 15, 2012 at 9:17 pm Reply
    2. JC Anderson

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_crime

      It happens, and in some cases people do in fact end up being arrested for things that they have done within an MMO. It is however difficult to determined where that line is drawn.

      April 15, 2012 at 3:10 am Reply
      1. Khaleb Valliante

        maybe you should read that wiki article yourself…. it has nothing to do with this matter, its about people stealing login credentials to obtain ingame items and sell them for rl money, illegal gold farming sweat shops, people selling stolen ingame items for real money etc
        see the pattern? theres always an income from virtual sources involved that is not being taxed…..

        how exactly does that have anything to do with one idiot losing a hel and another idiot thinking it was fraud?

        April 15, 2012 at 12:31 pm Reply
        1. Bashiri

          That isk "ingame item" could be sold for RL cash? Just with out the bot's involved

          April 15, 2012 at 3:39 pm Reply
          1. Khaleb Valliante

            and as long as the seller would tax that income no law would be broken…so whats you point?
            all those people are being charged with tax evasion or something similar like that, not with doing virtual harm to clueless carebear by whatever means
            "bots" are also not illegal, which law exactly does using a bot break?

            April 15, 2012 at 4:17 pm
  7. Mech

    Not so bad. I got new wallpaper.

    April 14, 2012 at 8:38 pm Reply
  8. Zentar

    Pretty shitty thing to do. Either way you flip it, defraud or not, they have torpeedoded what was left of their reputation, and on top of that shown that they are more degenerate people than most are.

    April 14, 2012 at 9:06 pm Reply
  9. Lolwut?

    EULA says all ingame assets are property of CCP.

    No assets switched hands. The modules and isk were CCP's property every step of the way.

    Stop posting.

    April 15, 2012 at 2:17 am Reply
    1. AlloK

      No assets switched hands? You're still thinking in game terms, not REAL LIFE. I am not talking about the modules or the ship.
      THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EVE.
      Think of eve as just a Chat client. like IRC, or MSN messenger

      IF it can be proven that Player A convinced/coerced Player B to spend REAL LIFE MONEY (in chat or audio logs), with the INTENT TO DECIEVE(also must be proven) Player B and "rob" him of said goods, then a real world crime has been commited. IT DOES NOT MATTER ABOUT THE LOSS OF THE SHIP.
      TL;DR
      If he was coerced into buying something(with real world money, in the real world), and was DECIEVED, and if it can be PROVEN, then a real world crime has been commited.

      April 15, 2012 at 7:56 am Reply
      1. Grunt101

        Yes, I totally agree. And I don't understand why some argue about this. If the prerequisites for a crime have been met it is a crime regardless of EULAs and/or other circumstances. Criminal law is suddenly not applicable just because you're playing a computer game, which should be pretty obvious to most people.

        April 15, 2012 at 12:49 pm Reply
      2. Lolwut?

        He convinced someone to buy some plex…. it worked.

        The victim converted $ to plex an plex to isk. Nothing wrong there.

        The isk belonged, and still belongs, to CCP. The victim never lost an asset. The transaction between CPP and his bank account worked perfectly.

        He was never "robbed" of the $ to make plex, that worked perfectly.

        He was never robbed of isk or items because he never owned them

        April 15, 2012 at 5:37 pm Reply
  10. AlloK

    "this is eve" is NOT an excuse. Eve is just the medium where the potential crime took place, think about it. Real World > Eve Universe, since the Eve universe exists WITHIN the real World. Therefore any REAL WORLD law will supercede anything put forth by the rules of Eve.

    IF, and I am saying IF, it can be proven that Player A convinced/coerced Player B to spend REAL LIFE MONEY, with the INTENT TO DECIEVE Player B and "rob" him of said goods, then a real world crime has been commited. If you don't see it you are fucking blind and need to take a step back, then look at the big picture.

    April 15, 2012 at 3:08 am Reply
    1. Wilson Yu

      you are a fucking moron here is proof you are blind. =) http://i.imgur.com/FSi5N.jpg

      April 15, 2012 at 9:18 pm Reply
  11. Incredible

    I can't believe some of these comments….
    What happened was FRAUD, get over it. Happens every day.
    If random people YOU DONT KNOW, can convince you to spend real life cash, just because, then YOU…
    obvioulsly DON'T CARE, dont DESERVE it, or both.
    If i FUCKING TOLD YOU to go buy a plex for 70 dollars and buy some ship that i have an intention to kill, AND YOU FALL FOR IT, then you, sir, are completely retarded, and shouldn't be near a computer anyway, much less have curency available to you.
    I can't believe anyone would cry foul over something like this, its mind boggling.
    For shame EVE-ers, for SHAME!

    April 15, 2012 at 4:15 am Reply
    1. wat

      FRAUD, is illigal shithead

      April 15, 2012 at 4:20 am Reply
    2. Um what

      So if you deem that someone is dumber than you, then the law or EULA's should no longer apply to them. Your argument is sound, and you should become a lawyer:
      "Your honour, though my client burgled the Jones' home and assaulted their daughter, we have footage of them at a local restaurant PUSHING on a door when the sign said "Pull!". Clearly, the Jones' are not as bright as I am, and DESERVE whatever they get! I rest my case!"

      April 15, 2012 at 1:03 pm Reply
    3. Wilson Yu
      April 15, 2012 at 9:17 pm Reply
  12. Ugonmon

    What if a guy buys 20 plexes with real life cash, undocks then I suicide gank him and take said 20 plexes. Is that then stealing if I had the intent to use those plexes for time in game?

    Unless evidence can show that they somehow forced him to buy those GTCs, I don't really see the issue of it.

    April 15, 2012 at 4:37 am Reply
    1. Imigo

      "Just to be very clear: my accusation of fraud and EULA/TOS violations extends only to those players — if any — who talked this pilot into spending real money"

      Reading comprehension FTW.

      April 15, 2012 at 5:49 am Reply
    2. Factition

      As Imigo said. Please at LEAST read the article before ranting about it? Most of the defenders "proving" the blog as being wrong, clearly show they never bothered to even read it.

      April 15, 2012 at 12:59 pm Reply
    3. Wilson Yu

      here is evidence http://i.imgur.com/FSi5N.jpg

      April 15, 2012 at 9:18 pm Reply
  13. Law 101

    "Fraud, in law, the deliberate misrepresentation of fact for the purpose of depriving someone of a valuable possession." Encouraging him to spend real $$$ with the purpose of depriving him of it is fraud.

    April 15, 2012 at 1:33 pm Reply
  14. Casino Royale

    Try stealing casino chips and see if "Its currency for a game only" gets you far.

    April 15, 2012 at 1:39 pm Reply
  15. Rol

    Interesting case. I asked the Law what it thought about this. Here's what it said: "I don't see where the fraud is. Alleged victim acted on advice from some game players and purchased some services from CCP, a third party. Said third party lived up to its end of the deal, and game was played as expected. I notice that CCP maintains that its currency has zero real-world value (the alleged victim paid for services, not goods), so anything within the context of the game is just that: a game. The fact that the alleged victim had a poor player experience in said game is none of my concern. Thanks for asking!"

    April 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm Reply
    1. Khaleb Valliante

      exactly

      April 15, 2012 at 4:21 pm Reply
  16. River

    If you buy a PLEX from someone with the ISK you made grinding whatever, you might think you are buying something with in game money, but the person that originally bought that PLEX bought it with REAL money.

    Virtual item not withstanding, a PLEX is really just a virtual prepaid credit card that can be used to buy ONE service, 30 days of game time. Like a prepaid credit card, it can be cashed in, lost, stolen or destroyed.

    But until it is cashed in for game time and the service is used, the credit company, CCP in this case, has the real cash for it.

    CCP just sold 100 Video Cards for 20 PLEX each to a bunch of people who had ISK to burn… but there was about 300 real US dollars in CCP's pockets for each of those cards.

    Every PLEX on the market is real money in CCPs pocket, that they don't have to pay out until the PLEX is cashed in. And so long as PLEX are bought, sold and traded… and NOT USED, CCP wallet just gets fatter.

    April 15, 2012 at 6:02 pm Reply
    1. Wilson Yu

      http://i.imgur.com/FSi5N.jpg <– proof

      you are a stupid cunt who knows nothing. If you read an article, do you blindly believe it like a brainless zombie who think news = 100 percent true. Grow the fuck up, wait, harden the fuck up you retard. Yes you are slow as fuck, mentally retard, slow mother fucker. God i love swearing at stupid cunts.

      April 15, 2012 at 9:28 pm Reply
  17. Raindeth

    Nigga please.

    There is no crime here… except in the fact that you don't read contracts to which you've agreed. You, dear Eve player, own NOTHING. Therefore, quite clearly, anything you "lose" within Eve never belonged to you in the first place. Move along now.

    Part of Eve EULA:
    "You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP…"

    April 16, 2012 at 5:02 am Reply
  18. Buggrit

    Real world fraud – this won't catch. I also very much doubt CCCP will go for it – too many people die in way too many dumb ways. Not doing a simple google cheat to see you're talking to shit is plain stupid.

    Still, it seems there's no doubt this was in the low-end of amorality pretending to be toughness. Its confidence tricking at its worse.

    People claim there is no limit to baseness in EVE. That HTFU is everything and pixels don't matter. Is there still respect?

    I'd prefer to play with people I respect rather than a group like this which I could not, even if they killed 10 titans a day. I would feel a killmail like this in my account would be a shame and not a victory, and if I found myself involved in such without knowing I'd try to get clean of it.

    April 16, 2012 at 9:18 am Reply
  19. -HP

    I find nothing wrong in here unless the people that ganked him ALSO forced him into buying plexes to get isk for the modules. Then they deserve to be perma banned. If he bought the plexes on his own, well bad luck.

    April 16, 2012 at 6:53 pm Reply
  20. C 3 po

    This is bad but honestly nobody can force you to buy something over the Internet he did buy this off his own back and as far as I am concerned as soon as that money is turned into plex it's game money not rl money immoral absolutely against the law or uela absolutely not

    February 13, 2013 at 6:06 am Reply
  21. Wilson Yu

    you are a loser here is proof. http://i.imgur.com/FSi5N.jpg

    April 15, 2012 at 9:18 pm Reply

Leave a Reply