View: Super-Capital Re-balancing – An Educated Opinion

So the current “hot topic” trending across eve ever since the old NC fell is “super-caps are overpowered.” This is a simple fact, and I’m here to say that it’s perfectly fine.

Comparatively, HACs are completely overpowered compared to regular cruisers. Supercaps as a ship class are absolutely fine, and simply have the distinction of being the most expensive, highest dps, highest ehp ships in game. No matter how much nerfing, balancing, etc etc you do, you will still end up with a class of ship which receives that distinction. Naturally, pilots, corps, and alliances with excessive isk, SP, and experience will naturally shift towards flying that class of ship. Supercaps as they are, are endgame ships that few players can realistically afford, with a majority of those players being individuals from my “generation” of eve – IE 2007 and earlier.

THAT DOESNT CHANGE THE FACT THAT SUPERCAPS ARE OP THO!!!!!11!!!1!!1!!1!1

Many would still argue that supercaps are a game-breaking ship class, and should be nerfed to uselessness, forced into useless roles, etc etc. I personally believe that CCP needs to take a closer look at their game and what it needs.

If you look at ships as they stand now, subcaps are widely varied with many different roles and strengths. A few examples are

-Logistics (RR)
-Recon Ships (Racial Ewar)
-Non-Faction Battleships (DPS, EHP)
with many many other examples I cba to list atm.

While ships are certainly capable of roles outside of those intended, they are often inefficient at them, and players are often better off using the appropriate ship instead. When this is NOT the case, ships are often overpowered or underpowered.

T2 logistics ships are a great example of this – several years ago, t2 logistics were unable to fit several large RR, and were widely considered useless. If a fleet brought RR, it often came in the form of a few modules fitted to spare slots in BS(RRBS gangs). Fast forward to when logistics ships were boosted, and you begin to see them become what they are today

– a necessity in any serious fleet.

What did CCP nerf?

Nothing – they simply boosted an existing ship class to reinforce an existing role, and introduced/tweaked a few other mechanics(bombs is one example) to achieve the desired result. When was the last time you saw an RRBS gang?

Let’s take a look at combat capitals now.

Putting aside features all capitals have in common(jump drive, high HP, etc etc), we currently have:

-Carriers have RR(+triage), Storage/Logistics, BS-Equivalent Vulnerable DPS Output.
-Dreadnaughts are an Immobile High DPS Platform
-Supercarriers have Reduced RR(No Triage), Storage/Logistics, DPS slightly worse than dread(but vulnerable like carriers, and mobile)
-Titans have DPS Similar to/exceeding dreads, Storage/Logistics, Jump Portal Generator(the bridge’s technical term), One-Off(comparatively) giant e-peen superweapon that instapops other capitals, arguably overpowered fleet bonuses, bonus to fitting ganglinks(ability to fill all high slots)

With those abilities in mind, what roles do these ships currently fill/what are their intended roles?

Carriers

Intended Roles: RR/Support, Limited (vulnerable/easily mitigated) supporting dps.
Unintended Roles: Jump Freighter, Ratting Ship.

Carriers presently fill their intended roles fine, with little issue.

As a triage/heavy RR platform, it is balanced by immobility, and inability to receive RR(otherwise all carriers in fleet fights would simply land on field and perma-triage for the entirety of a fight tbh, and even small groups of them would be invulnerable to all but pure alpha/gratuitous amounts of neuting)

Their useage as “jump freighters” was hugely nerfed years ago(in the trinity expansion iirc), and jump freighters were introduced to fill this role instead.

As a ratting ship, they are presently reasonably effective, with many arguments for, and against their useage as such.

Dreadnaughts –

Intended Roles: Anti-capital/structure heavy dps dealer, balanced by immobility/need to commit.
Unintended Roles: Anti-subcap heavy dps dealer, ratting ship, jump freighter.

Dreadnaughts fill their intended roles well, with the few tweaks CCP has recently introduced(t2 Siege, ecm burst immunity as intended, etc etc).

Dreadnaughts presently fill their unintended roles with varying levels of success.

As a subcap heavy dps dealer, they are weakened by their immobility and tracking, but this can be circumvented by a smart fleet keeping hostiles at range of dreads, and through gratuitous useage of target painters and webs. Many would argue this is a valid trade-off. While widespread in this use in WH space, it’s useage as an anti-subcap dps ship in k-space is much diminished as another ship exists that fills this role with greater efficiency and effectiveness.

As a ratting ship, their lack of dps outside of siege, combined with a severely inhibited ability to project said dps onto subcaps makes them largely ineffective, outside of specialized WH useage(capital escalation). Their weaknesses are circumvented once more by additional pilots, range, and gratuitous useage of target painters/webs.

As a jump freighter, dreadnaughts are presently almost useless due to the introduction of fuel bays and the subsequent reduction in cargohold.

Now what about supers?

Supercarriers-

Intended Roles: Mobile Anti-Capital (vulnerable)DPS, Mobile RR platform, hard to remove from field(high EHP)
Unintended Roles: Mobile Anti-Subcap DPS Platform, Ratting ship.

The supercarrier presently fulfills its primary intended role with varying levels of success.

As a mobile anti-capital DPS platform, it is capable of putting out just under t2 siege dreadnaught ability, with a much greater buffer tank than dreadnaughts. Their RR is on par with carriers, with the distinction that they are unable to enter triage, and thus have less RR(and local tank) capability.

It’s DPS is, however, immensely vulnerable as none can fit even a single full replacement wave of bombers. Additionally, in the environment they are intended to be used(on the modern alliance/powerblock level battlefield), their EHP is slightly lacking(they die extremely quickly). Their EHP is grossly out of place in other environments, but this has been offset by their extremely limited ability to remove tackle(in 0.0), and changes to agression mechanics(you cannot simply log off and let your high EHP save you).

Supercarrier EHP should be restored to pre-nerf levels.

As an anti-subcap DPS platform, the modern supercarrier can make the decision to several nerf it’s longevity on the battlefield, or reduce/remove it’s role as an anti-capital DPS platform to do this. However, as with dreadnaughts, with enough webs and target painters, one can achieve satisfactory results versus subcapital targets.

As a side note, previously, before Fighterbombers were nerfed, with only a few target painters(in my case, 2 specifically), and with no webs, supercarriers were able to instapop/couple volley most subcaps, which was extremely overpowered.

As a ratting ship, the supercarrier is more effective than a carrier, and relatively similar in practice(with the exception of sentry ratting carriers).

The supercarrier’s special ability to fit a Remote ECM Burst makes little to no sense in any of it’s roles. Without getting into what it can do in the environment supercarriers are intended for, it also grants groups of supercarriers operating in losec near-immunity to being tackled(it’s possible, but very hard and in most situations requires a stupid SC pilot, but I suppose those aren’t hard to find either). Remote ECM bursts add little to their intended roles, and noone likes ECM anyways. 😉

Titans-

Intended Roles – Anti Capital DPS Platform, Giant E-Peen, Pimp FC Ride.

Unintended Roles – Supercap proliferation, ratting/isk faucet, Obsoletes Sovereignty(when combined with overpowered static income sources such as moons), Gang Bonus Abuse, Subcap Rapemachine, jump freighter alternative.

As an anti-capital DPS platform, titans work very well. The Doomsday Device allows titans to one-shot most capitals, and allows groups of titans to instapop other supercapitals with terrifying ease. Their weapons have negligable issues tracking other capitals, and have dps output in the vicinity of supercarriers(either slightly better or slightly worse) depending on fit. As previously stated with supercarriers, titan EHP should be brought back to pre-nerf levels if they are to continue in their anti-capital role, similar to supercarriers(more on this later, however).

As a Giant E-Peen, Titans are the most expensive ship in the game, and often fit with excessive levels of bling. They are also presently capable of a wide-ranging variety of roles.

As a pimp FC ride, titans do not give out bonused links, and are rarely fit with ganglinks(there have been some terrible, terrible exceptions), but this is often made up for by their borderline overpowered built-in bonuses(you will rarely find a Raiden, PL, or NCdawt supercap fleet without an Erebus in a bonus position).

Titans have had a very large influence on the supercap proliferation ingame, with chains of them commonly being used to mass bridge regular freighters full of capital parts straight from losec to one’s build system of choice. This entirely circumvents the space limitations put in place by jump freighters, and removes the vast majority of actual work/effort involved in supercap production. Most supercap “production” I have personally seen, involved variations on the following.

1) Purchase components/bpc on market or from dedicated builder(<3 ya sinqlaison) 2) Get the above red frogged(<3 ya redfrog) / delivered to hisec next to your losec system of choice. 3) Log in army of titan/freighter alts (or coordinate a few friends), jump freighters up/down titan(s) bridge(s) to/from neighboring losec/your cynojammed(just cycle the jammer) build system. 4) Put parts into CSAA, pres butan, receive titan(in ~2 months, or supercarriers in ~1 iirc).

All of the above takes less than 48h to do, with the majority of the time being spent making sure everyone will be online/getting parts moved(you don’t actually do this yourself) to the losec system.

The only limiting factor is the build slots on your Capital Construction V char, and the amount of Capital (isk) you have to invest.

Titans also pretty much obsolete sovereignty. It is no coincidence that the most supercap-heavy groups in the game (PL, NCdawt, Raiden) also have no sov or barely live in it.

– Pandemic Legion has pretty much no sov.

-NCdawt is often on deployment recently, with mostly alts in their sov(my intel isn’t quite as sharp on them)

-Raiden. was on deployment for most of last year after the space was taken from NC (querious anyone? ). Before the “winter is coming” supercap “nerf” they moved back in briefly to collect supers coming out of build, and to allow everyone with titans to fatten their wallets considerably, before moving back out near patch day (December iirc?), basing assets out of NPC venal, and supercaps out of an alternative location (they’ve since been moved, but talking as candidly as I am right now is probably going to raise a few eyebrows anyhoo).

Why don’t these alliances live in “their” space(or hold any at all)? As it stands right now, the singular concrete reason to hold space is supercap construction.

Iskmaking? As long as high-income, static income sources like moons exist, alliance-level funding has no need of sov. Additionally, the only way sov-based ratting is at all profitable is either A) bots (which can be just as easily be run in NPC 0.0) or B) Titan Ratting (but most titan pilots have truckloads of isk already anyways tbh – the method in which we funded our titans in the first place doesn’t often vanish overnight once we have them)

For personal income, for the skilled pilot(aka 95% of the pilots in these alliances) exponentially better income can be made from pirate missions, WHs, or even Incursions in hisec.

Titans aid this type of alliance in that moving from one side of the universe to the other is laughably easy. As it stands, a properly cap-regen fit super can enter and exit a system in the space of ~30 seconds. Thanks to chains of titans with that wonderful jump bridge, subcap fleets can move almost as quickly(~2 minutes, 1 minute for bridge, 30s on either side to get subcaps in/bridged thru). I specifically remember during the invasion of Vale, NCdawt was basing out of npc Pure Blind. For a few weeks, we regularly rode multiple titan jump bridges to participate in fights in Vale.

These sort of mechanics make it immensely easy for supercap heavy alliances to come out of nowhere in order to take or defend a moon in almost any region of the game(I wonder why all the losec tech is owned by 0.0 powers?).
As to their ability to give bonuses – want a free Slave set? Hows about you and everyone in your fleet? Already have an HG slave set, no worries, heres a second one – stacking nerf free.

The above is a description of what a max skilled Erebus does to a fleet it’s in. The Leviathan does the same thing, but for shields, the Avatar makes it possible to achieve that golden 30s per system rule without officer cap regen mods, or even a full cap regen fit, and the Ragnarok makes frigates appear smaller than light drones if you do it properly.

Sound a bit broken? Not at all, assuming this is a specialized ship fitting a specific module, but titans do this ALL the time – cloaked, uncloaked, while raping other targets, and without any module or drawback whatsoever. Bonuses like these have no place on Titans, and IF kept in game, should be placed on the appropriate ship(like Fleet Command Ships?) with the regular rules of gang bonuses applied(not while in warp, no while cloaked, etc etc).

Jump Freighter Alternative – how’s about jump freighter replacement? For the cost of a single JF you can create three new accounts, plex them(~1.5b for 3), buy freighter characters(1b per x 3 = 3b), and buy them freighters(~1b each = 3b, total cost 1.5+3+3=7.5b). Simply bridge them through your titan and give no fucks whatsoever at hauling massive amounts of stuff. Additionally, why bother bridging with your 100k m3 Corp Hanger Array, and 5m m3 Ship Maintenance Array. T3 cruisers are ~100k m3 each – let’s bring 50 of em with us for lulz.

During the whole “remove sovjump bridges” situation with CCP, all us Titan pilots and titan builders were silently laughing. When I was in Raiden., throughout all of our space ( several regions ), we had maybe TWO jump bridges. Why?


Why bother paying the sov upkeep when it’s far easier just to ask someone to log in a titan to bridge?

I’m not even going to mention clone vat bays as those are largely unused on titans to my knowledge, but there is the potential for abuse with 50 t3s in ship bay –> clone in 50 guys.

Lastly, we get to the whole “subcap rapemachine” bit. I’m going to intentionally skip this one for now.

It’s fairly easy to see titans are grossly broken/overpowered, and that’s without even getting into the most commonly recognized titan “problem.”

Looking at combat capitals, it’s fairly easy to see what they presently do, where they overlap, what they’re good at.

Carriers/SCs –> RR
Carriers/SCs/Titans –> Support (refitting, ship/corp hanger, misc)
Dreads/SCs/Titans –> Capital/Structure DPS
Dreads/Titans –> Subcap DPS

What CCP seems hell-bent on doing is…..

Carriers/SCs –> RR
Carriers/SCs/Titans –> Support
Dreads/SCs/Titans –> Capital/Structure DPS

Does anyone else notice that Titans seem to have no role of their own, and simply have the ability to do multiple roles that other ships can do for far cheaper(with the exception of the jump bridge)?

When Titans were first introduced, in between the binge drinking Oveur must have been doing at the time (picture Oveur at a bar, drunk as shit with other devs, “Hey guysssssss….y’know wat we need. A giant fucking ship. I mean a giaaaant spaceship, with a freaking giaaannnnttt superweapon, n like built in stargate and bonuses n shit…*uuurp*”), at least a few of the neurons must’ve been working in his brain. The original purpose of titans ( other than “freaking giant dicks” as Oveur was quoted as saying ) was an anti-blob ship. I believe Titans should be returned to this role, with care taken to prevent them from being entirely overpowered.

I would propose several things.

1) Remove the Doomsday
It’s a stupid idea in the first place, has been pretty broken/used for stupid things since its inception, and generally adds little value to the game(Ooh I insta’d a titan with DDs).

2) Remove the Jump Portal Generator
As detailed above – it breaks the game on so many levels, while exacerbating existing issues and obsoletes one of the biggest perks of holding sov – Jump Bridges.

3) Remove the bonuses
Why do titans need these bonuses? How do they help them in their roles at all? It’s just another stupid thing added to an already powerful ship.

4) Remove the corp hanger, ship maintenance array, clone vat bay, and ability to refit other ships.

Titans shouldn’t be a zomg all-in-one combat AND logistics ship. Carriers can feasibly have these services, but there’s no reason for titans to have them other than “because they’re freakin’ huge.”

5) Tweak it’s weapons/locking speed/targets – maybe give it BS sized weaponry, but keep existing bonuses(very high dps), or reduce it’s dps bonus while increasing tracking/keeping tracking un-nerfed. The goal here is to make titans VULNERABLE to other capitals, while retaining the ability to kill subcaps at a solid rate.

Also, as part of this I would take a look at their EHP – perhaps keep it as-is, perhaps lower/raise it. It needs to be able to survive taking on huge blobs(it’s purpose), but without anti capital support of it’s own(dreads/SCs) it will diaf to hostile dreads/SCs.

6) This is two-fold. Firstly, jump mechanics in general are pretty broken atm. Capital fleets travel much faster than subcap fleets. This, coupled with titan’s jump bridges has greatly increased the “small universe” syndrome that plagues eve atm. Removing jump portals from titans will greatly help this, but the ability to drop caps near-instantly to “hold the line” while burning subcaps to destination would still make holding static income sources, remotely, feasible. This should not be the case – either require 99% cap(takes quite a bit longer than lol71%), or put some sort of hard cap like a session change timer. While “everything is in range in TiDi”, this will alleviate some of the “omniscient supercap fleet” issues the game currently experiences.

Secondly, with the proposed changes, titans would not only retain their ratting ability – but possibly become BETTER at it. This is a definite no-no – Titans are for PVP, not some carebear’s wet dream. The whole profitability of titans lies in their ability to run sites extremely quickly. Additionally, as it stands now, within ~20 seconds of an order being given, a titan can be off the field/warped to a different location through the useage of the 100mn MWD trick(I won’t elaborate here – look it up if you want). Titans and supercarriers should be both immensely powerful(they are) and immensely difficult to move. Yes, they don’t have a need to commit to fights in siege mode as per dreads/triaged carriers, but they shouldn’t be able to bounce around systems/grids easily either. When you deploy caps – they need to be DEPLOYED. I would suggest hugely reducing their agility/adding more mass. Make the 100mn trick unfeasible, and make titans truly take entire minutes to align.

When you light that cyno and drop titans, those titans will be where they are, or leaving system, for several minutes no matter what. This also has the added side effect of making ratting titans entirely unfeasible – sure you can run a site in 2-3 minutes, but when it takes you just as long or LONGER to move to the next site(nerf agility so much that you can click align the second you land, and STILL not be aligned for warp by the time you finish the site), your profit goes out the window.

To recap the changes, Titans/SCs still retain their tactical flexibility as far as not needing to entirely commit to fights – IE they can jump out whenever(within the changes to jump mechanics in general), but cannot be everywhere in system at once(station, gate, etc etc). A smart FC facing multiple supers will simply divide and conquer – supercaps(and their support fleet) cannot be everywhere at once anymore, and numbers become an equal alternative to massed supers.

An even smarter FC will realize that supercap-only fleets can be defanged relatively easily – bomb SC’s fighterbombers when they deploy them vs ur dreads, and the new titans are ineffective vs other caps. Without dreads of their own they will eventually die without help(or just circlejerk infinitely if you don’t have enough DPS-but thats what friends are for and epic fights are made of).

Dread fleets should see a huge resurgence(even more so than now) because of this – dread fleets, while still grossly outmatched by large supercarrier fleets – are now death incarnate to unsupported titans.

Also – suicide fleets become more feasible; massed titans can no longer DD large numbers of them before they can fire a single shot. All kills must be earned through shooting and take time – no cheesy instakills/fights being over within 5 minutes of supers landing.

The above would need to be tweaked to prevent one side being broken/overpowered and to maintain the balance, but this would give titans a unique role, while adding more variety and tactical flexibility to the game.

No more supercaps online – but not Death to Supercaps either.

-Lord’s Servant

About the author: Playing since ’05, mostly in 0.0. He has been a part of pretty much every major conflict in eve dating back to the ASCN v BoB war. Ex-NCdawt and ex Raiden. – Lord’s Servant personally owned (not corp/alliance owned) 2 wyverns, 4 nyxes, and 1 ragnarok, with extensive experience ranging from wide scale fleets to “solo” hotdropping.

He presently lives in WH space as Part of Narwhals Ate My Duck and own no supercaps.

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168 Comments

  1. Bocephus_Morgen

    If you buff the Nyx, Wyvern, and Hel's EHP, don't even touch the Aeon. It's stupidly high as is.

    April 13, 2012 at 12:03 am Reply
  2. Glenn

    Need capital version of stealth bomber, bombs sig radius effect set so subcaps dont get hurt.

    April 13, 2012 at 12:15 am Reply
  3. TRUTH IS OUT THERE

    It makes me laugh how all these bright sparks have ALL the answers as how to fix Titan/Supers yet many of them have either never lived in 0.0/Lowsec or have never even seen a Titan in a battle!

    Also I don't know about anyone else but I personally have NEVER heard of hundreds of Titans being used in the one place at the same time, so if your going to over exagerate at least do it to a level thats half believable.

    Balancing Titans is not going to be an easy job & there is sure to be a heap of people that are not going to be happy with the changes no matter what they are. Scaling the damage output of the XL gun's/Citadels isn't going to be an easy feat to pull off but if it is done right it could very well make things a whole lot better for everyone involved.

    I ATM would personally rather something be done to give Sov holders the ability to at least have a chance to find these ever growing numbers of cloaky system campers, I won't hold my breath while waiting for it though! ;p

    April 13, 2012 at 12:59 am Reply
    1. Lord's Servant

      Dude, ive lived in 0.0 pretty much my entire eve career. I've owned 6 super carriers, and one ragnarok(minmatar titan fyp).

      I have experienced more of o.o than most ppl, and I have the most intimate knowledge of ttans possible, as I have not only used mine in fleets, but have used it for solo dropping. Look up servant's Lord's last post for my video on it. Servant's lord is also my wyvern/avatar alt. He can also fly aeon.

      -Lord's Servant

      April 13, 2012 at 3:00 am Reply
      1. Some guy

        Dude don't waste your time on ignorant fucks like "TRUTH IS OUT THERE". He clearly didnt even read the post.

        I like your ideas tho and hope the CMS and CCP take notice of them.

        April 13, 2012 at 8:18 am Reply
        1. Semen Cowbell

          i wouldnt waste time with any of these non-registered white names. they all hide behind the anoniminity of the innerwebs…

          April 13, 2012 at 11:35 pm Reply
      2. Gottabeshitinme!

        So basically you ratted in it and dropped a few nubs with a log off mechanic that was flawed, ultimately leading to CFC getting the nerf they wanted and the rest of us getting fucked over….

        So really its your fault?
        Fuckin carebear 😉

        April 14, 2012 at 2:42 am Reply
        1. Lord's Servant

          I have actually been dropped on twice and intentionally chose not to log off. I have always clawed my way out either by being prepared and going to emergency cyno before being tackled, or extensively micromanaging ECM drones/neuts/ECM burst.

          Logoff mechanic was retarded and any pilot who exploited it was retarded as well tbh. Incidentally, most of my ragnarok dropping was done AFTER that was patched. 😉

          Oh and the same goes for shitty self destruct. 😛

          Skill > broken mechanic anyway.

          April 14, 2012 at 8:41 am Reply
          1. A curious friend

            I agree with "TRUTH BE OUT THERE" in the effect that there are high sec pubbies posting about this who have never seen a titan in battle………………my prime example is "TRUTH BE OUT THERE" as he obviously hasn't seen one or is absolutely retarded…………Actually, I'm going for both.

            April 16, 2012 at 2:09 am
  4. Marcus_McTavish

    I wonder how many of the shit posters here actually read the whole article, yeay reading is tough with your high school education, but try to read the whole thing before stopping at the first point your dont like.

    There are some good ideas here, but i think that the jump portal should stay, and that they should either keep titans as they are, and create a new ship that would be capable of dealing a lot of damage to supers only, while remaining vulnerable to normal subcaps. or they should find a way to make blobs less feasible.

    April 13, 2012 at 3:18 am Reply
    1. Some guy

      dreads are meant to be that ship, the whole point i think he was trying to make is that ships work when they have specific roles they are meant to fill. At the moment titans have no real weakness and are good at pretty much every role. I don't think we need a new capital at the moment just buff the dread a little so its better at its intended role (anti cap) and give the titan a more specific role as the OP suggests.

      And for all those wingy titan pilots your ship will still be very good its just not a i win button anymore, i don't care how much isk you payed for it, i win buttons have no place in eve…..o no you will have to think now when engaging in pvp….. quick everyone give them their isk back. Further you can still sell it if you don't like it anymore…plenty of people will still want them if you don't.

      April 13, 2012 at 8:12 am Reply
      1. Marcus_McTavish

        Dreads are anti-structure. There is no other reason that they initially had terrible tracking and could not move.
        Like hunting deer… with a cannon.

        April 13, 2012 at 9:29 pm Reply
        1. shiny!

          Hunting a deer with a cannon sounds fun though :(

          April 14, 2012 at 3:55 pm Reply
  5. Totally on Crack

    Have played for 7 years this year.

    I don't fly a Titan, but I do understand the need to change them significantly.

    I like these proposals.

    April 13, 2012 at 3:53 am Reply
  6. Anon

    It's not about the power of em, make em juggernauts, that's fine. It's the fact that a majority of supers fielded in the game were funded through macros. CCP never intended for so many to exist, but they forgot that some people feel it necessary to break game rule in order to have prettier pixels because they somehow feel those pixels will matter once the inevitable heart attack from lack of actual physical activity kills them.

    April 13, 2012 at 4:06 am Reply
  7. Krutoj

    I propose you sir pay back 100billion ISK to all Titan pilots (yes all 1000 of them, even those that will never login) and you can nerf anything you want 😀

    April 13, 2012 at 4:11 am Reply
    1. Tallian

      I think the EULA clearly states if your stuff gets nerfed, suck it up, you won't get anything as compensation.

      April 13, 2012 at 10:28 am Reply
  8. i-win

    what an idiot, the jump portal expands the gameplay.
    to remove it would be to limit the game and if you would start there you should go as far as remove the covert jump portal… what an idiot

    April 13, 2012 at 10:03 am Reply
  9. LOL.

    "educated opinion" my ass.

    April 13, 2012 at 11:14 am Reply
  10. TrollofTrolls

    Im more for a rock paper scissor thinking

    A Kills B
    B killls C
    C kills A

    Titans should dominate other Capital ships on grid, a single DD should be able to kill off a normal Capital and severly dammage a Super Capital spoolup time and recharge time should reflect this.

    SuperCarriers should get an aditional bonus to field, they are higer dps and worse logis then normal carriers my sugestion is boost there Hanger bays and slap on a cloneVat that makes the the Meta Logistic ship of the fleet that allow fast reship.

    Carriers — Fine

    Dread — should be your workhorse on fleet battles

    April 13, 2012 at 11:40 am Reply
    1. M1k3y

      If a titan "severly dammage[s]" a supercap, then raiden, PL, and NCdot would be able to doomsday all the Supercarriers of their enemy off hte field easily, as could Goons if they would actually deploy theirs

      April 13, 2012 at 4:57 pm Reply
  11. YouMadBro

    If you wanna get rid of titans bonuses and such dd etc allow capitals ie dreads carriers supers/titans in highsec and just see how well that goes :).

    April 13, 2012 at 12:16 pm Reply
  12. anon

    This is mostly horse shit…

    1) Remove all bots
    2) Give means of producing moon goo other than holding a moon

    Result: Not enough money to replace titans as fast as they are currently destroyed.

    April 13, 2012 at 12:34 pm Reply
  13. IK T

    What if Titans were forced into choosing a role (jump portal generator, doomsday, massively tanked CS) and had the ability to refit between these roles (think massive T3) by using a CSAA (or something) and had a 24 hr cooldown?

    April 13, 2012 at 1:17 pm Reply
  14. Mr. 2cents

    All i read between the lines was: "I want to rat in a supercarrier with no risk and therefor nerf the f*ck out of anything that prevents me from doing so."
    It was almost like reading an emotional reaction to ones inability to do this for whatever reason.
    And the suggestions… errr… not even going to comment on them, but could you do your research on the impact of said changes beforehand next time please? Cause you aint making much sense at the moment.

    For the first time I feel the urge to ask "U mad bro?"

    April 13, 2012 at 1:25 pm Reply
  15. Matt

    Not sure I totally agree with you, but you raise some interesting points.

    I think the primary problem with super caps is not there over powered. It is simply that there is no counter too them.

    The thrust of your argument relates to other segments of ship classes and roles, and each one has at least one counter, and can be neutralised with a single ship or module.

    Logistics causing you a problem then, bring Neuts or ECM.

    ECM a problem, bring Neuts or fit ECCM.

    Neuts a problem, bring ships that are passive, jam them or snipe them.

    And so on and so forth.

    The issue though, is the only effective counter to a super cap, is another super cap, which is a problem for a rock, paper & scissors game that can only beat scissors with another pair of scissors. Sure there is the odd exception to the rule I'm sure, but lets be honest, 99% of all Super kills have half a dozen or more other super caps on the kill mail.

    Super's don't necessarily need a nerfing, they need a counter. Super caps can remain as devastating as you like for all I care, they should be capable of obliterating entire fleets, but they should fear something too, assuming of course that a dedicated counter exists, preferably sub capital, but capital is fine.

    How they do it I don't really care, a specific module that can only target supers on a tech 2 or tech 3 battleship, like a super bomber, which needs to hunt in gangs of 5-6 for super carriers or 10-20 for titans. Or a dedicated Capital ship that can only kill Super's and is weak to other capitals.

    I've heard super's called Goliath's, behemoths etc, well even Goliath had a David.

    Don't make them useless please CCP, just make them beatable if the right ship is brought to bear…….

    Oh, and if anyone say's a HIC is a counter to a super I will laugh at you.

    April 13, 2012 at 4:27 pm Reply
  16. Removing both the DD and the Jump Portal Generator completely removes any value of a Titan. You're negating the one thing that makes Titans Awesome, and the other thing that allows it to act as a Force Multiplier.

    If you want to fix the DD, just up it's cycle time — Instead of five minutes, make it 10, or 15, or more. Completely removing it breaks the Titan's CONCEPT — a Superweapon of immense power.

    Of course, you could always go with the flow and ADD more Supercaps and Capital ships. Create a few for subcap popping, some more for Cap popping, and some more for Supercap popping. The more ships that blow up, the better.

    April 13, 2012 at 4:44 pm Reply
    1. ...

      TLDR; there needs to be more checks and balances in eve ship choices. No ship should be worthless. Price isn't an excuse for making a ship op.

      I'm a fan of making a t2 version of the tier3 bc's (or perhaps a new t1 tier4 bc) that works as a heavy anti-super bomber. A ship that does massive damage to supers but is vulnerable to even rookie ships would be great for EVE.

      I personally think some of the suggestions are a bit over the top (removing dd, jump portal generator, ect.) I think removing the ability for caps to refit off each other would be a good change though. Make them go to a tower that provides those services for caps and super's.

      I am of the opinion though, that super bpo's should be changed to bpc's and CCP should take the blue prints off the market. Once the amount of supers (and corresponding blue prints) fall below a specific level perhaps they could be a very rare loot drop in 0.0 until the number of supers is replenished. [ie: assume there are 400 sc's and 100 titans allowed in game. Once the super total falls to that amount imagine a battle battle takes place where 10 sc's and 5 titans die. Over a period of a month super bpc's drop in remote locations. Any new super casualties would be put in that back log. Alternatively super bpc's could be sold in fw lp stores only when the amount of super's fall below the specific amount.]

      April 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm Reply
      1. Morg.

        That is anti-sandbox, anti-EvE and overall a bad idea.

        April 20, 2012 at 8:19 pm Reply
  17. Dingle bat

    Basically that post was the biggest load of shite i've read, simple Titan's are Titanic not some furry friend that everyone can get, stop being liberal and trying to even everything, they are end game stuff and many people played and paid their way in eve to fly these things, stop the nerf button emo ragers who want to ruin the game and come up with numbers and tactics to compete, until you can join them that is >>>> enough said, put back some EHP and some drone space on Supers and leave them the fuck alone.

    April 13, 2012 at 10:16 pm Reply
    1. trallala

      Endgame ?

      a ship itself can't be endgame, endgame is something differnt, when you beat a stronger enemy with better gameplay, but sitting in a titan and shoot fleets of ships that can never break its pure hull tank because you drop simple eneough supers is no endgame. it is lazy pvp for people who can't play eve.

      endgame is something like alliances like rooks'n kings do.

      April 14, 2012 at 12:06 am Reply
      1. Gottabeshitinme!

        Bullshit, its a ship which costs 100bil fitted and slaves, a ship which takes 50mil sp into pure talents to fly (more like 100mil on chars which can fly them) and a shit ton of logistics to fuckin build!!!!

        Why the fuck this ship should fail like goon Maels is beyond me, endless forum man jizzing somehow ended in another bat on them but fuck off any more – if your gonna ruin supers and titans lets give everyone thier isk back, end them entirely and put back old torps on bs's and be done with it. FFS CCP where has your imagination, or should we ask Mitani where he put it?

        April 14, 2012 at 2:36 am Reply
        1. trallala

          the needed logistic for a titan is done in several hours. buiding titans is a question of ISK only, rest is solved very fast with some building toons and the BPOs in the hangars. titan construction is solo business.

          about the ship price logic, i dont get it. because you fly a more expensive ship you are not allowed to die ?

          50 mio skillpoints, wow. 50 mio skillpoints on the sheet means not that you have the ingame skill. currently the titan is a ship that can compensate low ingame skills and scream around "i am elite PVP, this is endgame, i need no support in a titan blob, i am untouchable".

          April 14, 2012 at 7:10 pm Reply
          1. Gottabeshitinme!

            Untouchable in a titan blob? are you for real lol – So now not only should a single titan die easy but you shouldnt be safer in numbers, even though the combined fleet cost is in trillions of isk?

            All ships need support but since there is now no log off timer as CCP did the usual and went way over the top when it needed pushing up to 30mins and wasnt an issue – Supers worth billions of isk are way to easy to catch and kill. All it takes a a dictor and a MOM cant even defend itself if caught due to ridiculous fighter bomber only drone bays, it cant log out as it has agro aslong as the dictor keeps it bubbled which could be the entire day if just after downtime and gives far to much bias to the attacker as they can build a fleet at thier own pace.
            Same for titans now, at least they have a DD and chance of tracking a target but thats too much apparently, it doesnt matter that they are screwed once tackled, people now want them to not be able to fight back at all 😐 – thats not stupid its fuckin retarded, people calling for this are set in 2 catagorys 1) Run with CFC and win by blob and want the only counter to it gone 2) Gimps who have never seen a titan, most likely live in high sec and just jump on the CFC forum spamming of the last 2 years.

            Logistics for building titans does take several hours, if you have several jump freighter toons and char to build, it still doesnt cut down the build time on it or how at risk that isk is once its in the cooker.

            You also miss the point that that char is stuck in a titan once you jump in it, so all skillpoints are lost until it dies or you get another char to fly it at the cost of another 5billion just for the sb alone.

            Far to many haters of ships just because they dont have one – eve has turned into a game full of whiney, blueballing retards who darent pvp unless is a certain win and then if dont win spam moan about how unfair it is until its fucked over! Seriously how about find a counter to it or as the old adage goes "if you cant beat em, join em" get your own fuckin supers and titans!

            People should be pushing CCP to get new ships in game as counters or for new ways to attack shit, not pushing the game backwards trying to get anyhting powerful nerfed and taking up ccp's time.

            April 15, 2012 at 12:57 pm
          2. ...

            "All it takes a a dictor and a MOM cant even defend itself if caught due to ridiculous fighter bomber only drone bays"
            "Seriously how about find a counter to it"
            "if you cant beat em, join em" get your own fuckin supers and titans!

            Do you listen to yourself talk? CCP is trying to make counters for all existing ships… and I assume for all future ships they create. Having a counter for one type of ship be more of the same is poor game mechanic.

            April 16, 2012 at 11:08 pm
          3. Gottabeshitinme!

            Do you listen to yourself?

            You quote me about the fact a 20bil ship cannot defend itself against a 30mil dictor and post some bollocks about counters to all ships – wtf!

            A 20-100bill isk ship shouldnt be able to be indefinatley trapped by a shitty dictor while you have all day to get a force to kill it with, thats the stupidist mechanic CCP ever brought into the game.
            Yes once deployed they are vunerable but not screwed over with a limitless amount of time to be able to take it down. As it is you could simply grind it down with a few bs and a curse to cap it out, which is a pretty poor mechanic indeed.

            The game is all aimed back at bigest blob wins, regardless of ships, pilot skill, isk deployed etc and it shouldnt be – there is more to this game then simply blobing the system out surely or have CCP totally lost thier way?

            April 17, 2012 at 10:05 am
  18. shiny!

    I am a fairly new titan pilot, although I have alot of experience flying SC's pre and post nerf. I would aggree that yes titans are way overpowered but…..they are rarely used for combat anymore unless your alliance has a shit ton of Tech moons.

    Essentially as we are all aware of titans main role now is the taxi service, so it could be argued that that is there role in the battlefield sending in reinforcements and ensuring a safe extraction, also I would like to point out sov holding alliance rely heavily on titans to bridge in freighters with ihubs, it is either that or going through WH space which is not exactly ideal…….or you can simply jf the parts and build the freighter….which also is not ideal.

    Titans DD should be left unchanged or weakened maybe bring a carrier into half armor not instapopped, although the removal of DD'ing subcaps was not the best idea, hics n dics can now point these bad boys easily although again I understand that when a titan is committed it is done with a large subcap fleet but even so a SC's fighters / fighterbombers with the right fit can easily kill a hic. Maybe the remote ECM burst should be fitted to titans also.

    As for dealing damage to subcaps, capitals are to support subcaps, specifically carriers, so the tracking titan nerf is exactly what is needed, titans are there to support the capitals in fleet engagements and deal high dps to structures not blitz through the subcaps with little to no effort.

    As for the other changes to ship maint / corp hangars I think that should be left unchanged.

    April 14, 2012 at 4:14 pm Reply
  19. -A- FC

    About as educated as a guy that fits plates and reps

    April 14, 2012 at 7:03 pm Reply
  20. de4deye

    People are quick to yell "NERF" before they are to try to "adapt". Tbh, people are crying more than they need to, just train up your toons and grind some isk like the rest. Eve is getting old, people are getting nicer toys, just adapt rather than whine because you've been lazy.

    April 15, 2012 at 5:33 am Reply
    1. DarthNefarius

      I agree NERFs are easy bullshit bandaid fixes which are implemented haphazardly and are lazy excuses to fix things without enouch forethought to what one already did. Well thought out buffs to instead of NERFs are the real world adaptions that if CCP could copy instead of just reacting in emergency mode would help out the game flow much better

      April 15, 2012 at 8:35 am Reply
  21. Yasars

    simply LOL !!!!!!!!!!!

    bullshit in tons

    April 17, 2012 at 1:52 am Reply
  22. Devil

    I love how people who have been killed by a super or titan write up something on evenews24 or the forums to whine about how over powered they are. stop crying and play the game, if you dont want to get killed by people with supers and titans stay in high sec

    April 17, 2012 at 4:54 am Reply
  23. Bill

    Your proposed changes would make Titans so useless that anyone who worked their butt off for one would be screwed over big time. I wouldn't even blame them for quitting the game.

    They need to keep supercaps as powerful as they were before but give subcaps new means of combating them in large groups.

    July 24, 2012 at 1:43 am Reply

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