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Jester’s Trek: A tale of two regions

Let’s look at regions belonging to the two biggest entities in space, shall we?

Let’s start with Deklein, home of Goonswarm Federation.  Here’s a view of jumps in this region in 24 hours.  Here’s a view of NPC kills in this region in 24 hours.  As you can see, Deklein is a busy place, particularly for null-sec.  Lots of moving around, lots of activity, lots of utilization spread around the region.  Dotlan unfortunately doesn’t provide maps of active pilots per system the way the EVE in-game map does, but if it did, you’d see large bubbles of activity throughout the region.  Goonswarm lives in Deklein and they operate in Deklein.

Now let’s cross the galaxy and look at Oasa, owned almost entirely by Shadow of xXDEATHXx.  Here’s a view of jumps in this region in 24 hours.  Here’s a view of NPC kills in this region in 24 hours.  Oh look.  Other than jump bridge systems (which are easy to spot) and the highway between Perrigen Falls and Cobalt Edge, the place is uninhabited and all but completely unused save for a handful of systems.  Again, if you could see this region in the in-game map, you’d see dark, cold, empty space.  No bubbles of activity.  Hm, well perhaps the neighboring regions of Malpais or Perrigen Falls are better.  Nope.  Northeast Etherium Reach?  Nope.  Northeast Outer Passage?  Nope.  And again, if you looked at the in-game map, you’d find few or no bubbles of activity.

Both Shadow of xXDEATHXx and Goonswarm Federation have about 7500 members.  GSF holds 116 systems, about a third of them in recently-conquered Branch, a place they don’t intend to live (or even hold for long, most likely).  xXDEATHXx holds 277 systems, again about a third of them taken in the recent DRF civil war.

I think it’s pretty clear who’s actually using their systems and living in them, though.  And that’s how sov should work: if you live in space and use that space, you get to hold sov there.  If you don’t, you don’t.

It’s called “sovereignty by occupation”, and it’s by far the most popular proposal around how sovereignty should work in EVE.  And it will probably never, ever happen.

Let’s look how territory is conquered and held during war-time in real life.

Traditionally, you start by formally declaring war on your target.  You might even choose to publicize a deadline associated with your invasion.  After that, it’s traditional these days to go after enemy infrastructure with your air force, artillery, or other long-range assets.  Once this is in full swing, your striking arm hits the defending forces of the territory you’re invading, they’re pushed back, you advance.  Further attacks on rear echelon infrastructure become possible as you advance and over time, the process accelerates.  As your striking arm moves forward, occupying forces settle into the conquered territory to ensure it stays conquered.

Wars in EVE follow a similar format.  “EVE is real”, right?  The planting of SBUs correspond to the formal declaration of war.  Attacks on CSAAs, jump bridges, and other POS structures correspond to the attack on infrastructure.  Battles take place between the defenders and the attacker’s striking arm, the defenders are pushed back.  And after the territory is conquered, the attackers go home, leaving the newly-conquered territory completely unoccupied and denuded of all life.

Yeah, OK, maybe wars in EVE are not much like wars in real life.  And neither is sovereignty.  Let’s look at an example.

DOCS-O is a very nice little constellation in Oasa sitting on the border of Cobalt Edge.  It has six systems, five of them with an average true-sec of -0.55 or so and a sixth with a true-sec of -0.87.  It’s remarkably easy to defend.  Its center system, XXZ-3W, is great for ratting, and has 75 moons and 29 asteroid belts with ABC available, making it ridiculously valuable to any mining alliance.  There’s a good mix of planets in the constellation for PI.  There’s no ice belt native to the constellation, but there’s one only one jump over in the next region.  Plant a station in XXZ and DOCS-O would make an ideal home for a currently-high-sec-bound industrial alliance.

xXDEATHXx has held this constellation continuously for more than three years.  There’s no evidence they’ve ever done anything with it.  There’s no evidence that they’re EVER going to do anything with it.  As I write this, XXZ has had 15 jumps in the last day, all of them singles or very small groups.  This entire constellation has been owner-less for more than six weeks.  It’s nice real estate that a lot of EVE players would enjoy doing their thing in.  It’s not for everyone, sure.  A PvP alliance would hate it.  But not everyone in EVE does PvP, do they?

And I’m sure, if you have an industrial alliance, you can have this constellation.  As long as you pay xXDEATHXx through the nose for the privilege of living in a constellation they have no interest in whatsoever.  And as long as you form up every pilot you have for every CTA that xXDEATHXx ever calls.  And as long as you’re beholden to xXDEATHXx in every way.  Anyone ready to sign up for that?

And don’t get the impression this constellation is unique.  There’s other examples all through north and northeast null-sec, and it’s becoming an increasing issue in other parts of space as well.

“I don’t want it, but you can’t have it, either.”  That’s the message.  That’s what null-sec is increasingly looking like.

And DOCS-O is a pretty good constellation with good true-sec.  You can imagine what the bad constellations look like these days.  There are huge swaths of space in null that aren’t held at all, or are only held so that the sov-holders will get EVE mail warning if anyone puts staging POSs in them.  Because without the game to tell them, the owners wouldn’t know.  These aren’t foreclosed houses, where a squatter can live for weeks undetected if you don’t hire a security guard.  The owner lives two thousand miles away, but is still notified instantly someone lights the living room lamp or sits in a chair.  No security guard needed.


Sov by occupation would change all of that.  Want to own a system?  Your people have to live there.  If there’s no stations, people have to jump in and out, rat, mine, run sites, make the system productive… people in your alliance.  Not your pets.  If your pets come into your more valuable systems to rat and you don’t, then ownership of that system shifts to them, not you.  Station ownership should operate by tug-of-war mechanics.  As long as you’re there to defend your station access points when they become vulnerable, all is well.  If you’re not there, then you might get into system to find the station has new management.  And the people that live in a system have the natural advantage of being there when the station access points become vulnerable.

Want to know why sov by occupation will probably never, ever make it into EVE Online?  One word: renters.

But this post is already ridiculously long, so I’ll pick it up again there tomorrow.

Ripard Teg

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  1. bagehi

    Won't happen unless moons cease to be extremely important strategic assets. This is the main cause of the sprawl.

    March 2, 2012 at 5:16 pm Reply
    1. Cynic

      He mad Rote don't own better space and so dreams of a simple sov mechanic by which they could "occupy" better space to upgrade it.

      March 2, 2012 at 5:39 pm Reply
    2. The Observer

      Maybe an indirect buff and a moon re-balancing, like CCP said they were going to do. Balance out what materials are required to make 2 items, and see how he price of all moon goo evens out.

      March 2, 2012 at 6:37 pm Reply
      1. DarthNefarius

        Have drones randomly poop moon goo like they do with minerals… break the monopolies

        March 2, 2012 at 8:51 pm Reply
    3. Akrasjel Lanate

      Arent Shadow a renter alliance of Legion of xdeath what did you expect

      March 2, 2012 at 7:43 pm Reply
    4. tech moons


      He who controls the tech controls the universe.

      March 2, 2012 at 11:14 pm Reply
    5. Random Miner

      pretty much. And there's an exploit for everything.

      March 3, 2012 at 9:29 pm Reply
  2. sour

    while i dont disagree with u on the spot, i dont like the part where I HAVE to live in a system to make it mine. moreover to consistently inhabit the sys to preserve ownership. keep in mind that this is a game and it doesnt sound very fun to HAVE to do things. sounds like rl work u see…

    other than that its not a bad idea but needs refining. it would definitely reshape 00 no doubt. cant say for sure it will be better than what we got now.

    March 2, 2012 at 5:23 pm Reply
    1. The Observer

      Perhaps you need to keep at least 2 of the current sov upgrade levels to 2 or more to keep sov?

      March 2, 2012 at 6:33 pm Reply
      1. sour

        i really havent thought of that too much tbh. maybe a neat idea would be to use a little of both. for example a sov holding alliance could hold a set amount of systems based on corp No, or memeber count or both. if that alliance wants more systems then maybe use the "occupation da sys" thinggy.

        March 2, 2012 at 8:47 pm Reply
  3. Mr Goon

    Instead of forcing alliances to use their space wouldnt it be better to boost 0.0 mining and ratting so people actually wants to be there?
    And not only by increasing bounties but adding missions to sov space and giving all the npcs sleeper style AI.

    March 2, 2012 at 5:25 pm Reply
  4. Dick Cheezburger

    "Let’s look how territory is conquered and held during war-time in real life."

    Stopped reading there. Go fucked.

    March 2, 2012 at 5:41 pm Reply
    1. masterochi

      People who can not accept facts are doomed to base their reality on a lie, called opinion.

      This is not a fantasy game, it is science fiction. The premise of Eve is based on science, and the skills system reflects that.

      There are some dumb compromises, like warping through planets, and friction in space causing ships to slow down, but the underlying foundation is simulating life in a small cluster in a distant part of the galaxy, or perhaps a small island galaxy.

      I LIKE facts, and the closer the game simulates real human behavior, it will continue to hold enough interest to generate subscribers.

      Otherwise, we would still be playing Space Invaders and Asteroids. (Yes, I spent thousands of quarters in arcades in the eighties.)

      March 4, 2012 at 9:40 pm Reply
  5. What you describe as war in the real world is more like war in RISK. In the real world, most people who live and work in a region remain there (or return when the battles are over) regardless of what government controls it. War rarely results in one country being absorbed into another — you set up some kind of vassal state, achieve some particular political goal, etc.

    I tend to think there should be no formal sov mechanics at all. Seems to work fine for W-space.

    March 2, 2012 at 5:43 pm Reply
    1. The Observer

      This is how I envision the ownership by occupation mechanic to work. The larger alliances move in next door and "conquer" their neighbor by being more successful. They don't join up with you militarily, economically or politically, then they get stomped anyway and the larger alliance has more possible space to expand.

      March 2, 2012 at 6:32 pm Reply
    2. intrigued

      actually…that's kind of intriguing….

      How about no-sov, just station ownership….

      March 2, 2012 at 6:53 pm Reply
  6. druid_cilnok

    This idea with a reiterated way of making 0.0 as profitable as HS incursions (risk vs reward argument) can only be a positive thing. It will attract more people to live in 0.0, and god knows there is space for them to move in.
    With more people there will be more fights, small- medium gang/fleet fights, whats not to love?


    March 2, 2012 at 5:46 pm Reply
    1. DarthNefarius

      I hope it happens… Incursions in lo sec can be highly profitable and occasionally are( by at least 2 SOVs doing it 'right'). If this article explains why its because space is being held not for profit but to deny profit for others ( and too often their own underlings keeping them under thumbs)by the NULL SEC lords! NULL SEC is playing a PvP game by denial & are pissed off at HI SEC incursions because they can't deny that profit and thier peeps are leaving in droves.

      March 2, 2012 at 8:57 pm Reply
  7. Shadow of xxdeath isn't a real alliance. There a pet of Legion of xxdeath, aka the renters. The way they set there systems up is if you are a corp that wants to get into null you can join them, then you are assigned a SYSTEM not a constellation. You cannot do anything outside of that system. If you look at the area of Oasa thats close to Cobalt Edge you would see a bunch of refineries right next to each-other. Why? Because there is no cross corporation cooperation. Also a lot of those systems are empty because of the recent invasion done by IRC thus scaring a lot of the renters out. If you gave xxdeath enough time they will refill there systems again with renters and bots, lots and lots of bots.
    So your Comparison is null and void because the "real" xxdeath is Legion, who is a LOT smaller.

    As for buffing null. Totally agree, null needs to be the premier place to make isk. -.1 true sec should be what -.5 is now and then scale up from there, so that even -.1 space is worth having.

    March 2, 2012 at 5:51 pm Reply
    1. The Observer

      Perhaps all CCP needs to do is buff the true sec of 0.0 systems, and not necessarily the rat's bounties. As far as 0.0 space goes, my experience is somewhat limited to the extreme south and extreme north. Both of which are excellent in terms of money making for pvp alliances (ratting in the south, "other things" in the north).

      And yes, Shadow is the renter alliance, similar to Red.Citizens, AAA Citizens, etc.

      March 2, 2012 at 6:23 pm Reply
      1. Tar

        well, even in crucible they didn't buff the rats, they buffed the amount of rats, which in the end just leaves you with more rats to kill, and same amount of isk per bounty tick. While not all bad, and there are more rats to kill, systems with -.1 to -.3 are fairly poor in that department.

        dreamer says to buff -.1 systems to be like -.5, while i would certainly enjoy that, i believe that still would not fix what ripard is trying to say. Yes his argument is not perfect but how many times have you gone on a roam through 20-30 jumps and noted how many systems are empty…all the time…everyday.

        March 3, 2012 at 1:47 am Reply
        1. dreamersofreality

          Another idea would be to tie true sec to activity. Much like how you upgrade your ratting by killing rats and adding upgrades into the Ihub. You tie the true sec to the same system, only you can't do anything in the Ihub to it, its completely based on how many rats are killed. So all systems would start at .1 sec but you could increase its sec to -1.0 if you kept ratting. Plus it would degrade in the same manner as keeping a level 5 system. Mining would benefit from this as ABC's would start showing up the more the ratters in the corp kept going. This system however would make all null the same essentially much like it was before CCP regressed into "true" sec again.

          Anyways its another thought I came up with as I was re-reading what I posted may expand more on it in my blog at a later date (its linked in my profile somewhere I think).

          March 4, 2012 at 10:23 am Reply
  8. npc DR

    I think Outer Passage should be made NPC Region. Very hard assault anything drone regions because npc station are simply too far. Big disadvantage for attackers

    March 2, 2012 at 5:53 pm Reply
    1. zef


      March 3, 2012 at 2:18 am Reply
  9. ...

    If there was a setting in the system you propose for alliances to opt out of obtaining sov (a statistic that would be visible to anyone looking at their public alliance page in the client) the renter issue wouldn't be a problem. The major alliance would tell the renter to check the box or be kis… the renter would comply or decide to make things interesting.

    I don't think mining and ratting should be the only indicators of holding sov. While perhaps they coudl add to your sov score, placing infrastructure (stations, pos [jump bridges], pi, ect… ) and using it should all be taken into account when calculating the sov score. PVP should also be taken into account.

    Along with adding missions to sov space I think CCP should add the ability for players build dead space complexes in space. These would generate passive income (not isk- think minerals, boosters, ect.) Think mining operations, refineries, factories, scanning hubs and other interesting infrastructure. These complexes would have the ability to be staffed with npc defenders and 'workers' giving hostile players something to shoot while creating another isk sink. Hunting these down would certainly be more interesting than ratting as the variety in what players can create is much more than what CCP can do. Saving complexes in a 3d blueprint format would be beneficial as well so players can make multiple instances of sites if they find one that works for them.

    March 2, 2012 at 6:01 pm Reply
    1. ...

      I'd like to add that just having an operational jb in a system should be enough to hold sov. That would make more sense than the current 'paying concord for sov' mechanic which seems silly to me.

      March 2, 2012 at 6:04 pm Reply
  10. Some Guy

    Hey, we in IRC love Oasa, free ratter kills erryday.

    March 2, 2012 at 6:03 pm Reply
    1. IRC LuLz

      LOL @ IRC

      IRC kills? guess that is what you do after you get pimpslapped by PL

      March 2, 2012 at 9:24 pm Reply
      1. Some Dude

        Yes, IRC kills. The truce forced on IRC by PL only ended IRC's sov war against xDeath. Roaming and hunting in xDeath space is still going on. In fact, the net effect for IRC of the whole war was the gain of all Solar's old systems in Cobalt plus a new hunting round of mostly squishy carebear renters in Oasa. When they were blue, IRC had to go 20 jumps or more to find fights. Now we have our own personal playground.

        March 4, 2012 at 4:37 am Reply
  11. Stauf

    It is not fair to compare these two regions.

    As you pointed out… Goonswarm lives in Deklein and they operate in Deklein.

    Shadow of Death doesn't live in this region and it was only recently acquired from IRC.

    When Goonswarm invaded Branch how much of it did they live in? Granted they moved other alliances into the region which was cool, but they themselves did not occupy it.

    Once the war ends, you'll see more activity in Oasa. The carebears will return.

    The other reason it is unfair to compare these two regions is the fact of bounties vs. drone droppings. The drone regions have always been the bastard children of EVE. If given the choice which would you live in?

    March 2, 2012 at 6:18 pm Reply
    1. Bard

      LOL, IRC was only in OASA very recently….and briefly. IRC totally killed xXDeathXx until they bought some of PLs valuable time.

      March 2, 2012 at 6:47 pm Reply
  12. someguy

    Why should I have to pve to hold my space gained through pvp? GTFO of my sandbox.

    WTF is the logical conclusion of this? Say a swarm of 250 goon drakes enter an Raiden system during US tz and proceed to rat like hell in order to flip the system? Raiden looses control of their space because they can't pack enough RATTERS into a system during US tz to hold it? Seriously? The solution to null sec stagnation is MORE carebears? Get out.

    Shoot red cross vs people for sov…great fucking idea.

    March 2, 2012 at 6:19 pm Reply
    1. The Observer

      That's kinda not what he said. You would need to defend the system by killing the goons ratting. REALLY easy, considering that they'd b split up between sanctums. Also, and this needs to be ironed out a bit more, but the station still wouldn't flip. RAIDEN. would still own the station, and because of that, sov wouldn't (or shouldn't) change over: become a no-man's land perhaps?

      March 2, 2012 at 6:43 pm Reply
      1. Shadowy guy

        Its still a really stupid fuckin idea.

        March 3, 2012 at 3:43 pm Reply
  13. Learn2Bot
    March 2, 2012 at 6:25 pm Reply
  14. dumb idea

    inb4 hordes of trial accounts docked in station and never leaving.

    March 2, 2012 at 6:26 pm Reply
  15. SgtSimons

    so instead of fleets of maelstroms and titans taking over systems you will send fleets of hulks, ravens and ratting tengus to take over…..make sense to me…lol

    March 2, 2012 at 6:28 pm Reply
    1. guest

      Only if fleet battles don't have any impact in that occupation system, which I doubt.

      March 2, 2012 at 9:50 pm Reply
    2. kind of fun

      That actually sounds kind of fun. Then other people could come in and gank all the "sov grinding hulks"

      March 4, 2012 at 10:19 pm Reply
  16. The Observer

    The only problem I'm seeing with your proposed sov mechanic (don't get me wrong, I love it) is that it would never get passed because of certain other members of the CSM disagreeing and pretty much being a baby about losing their empty shell of an empire. I completely agree that the space you have should be the space you work in. Perhaps SBUs and TCUs obviously still work, but perhaps a system similar to what it is now; you don't own the sov of the system until you spend a certain amount of time there and get the levels of the system to at least 2. Easy enough.

    Renters are easy enough to solve. It works the same way. They pay the sov bills, so less work for the landlord, and he landlord would have to enforce loyalty through either military, economic, or political might, much as they do now. So another alliance holds the sov of 3 systems, good for them. The larger alliances can still stomp them out of existence if they wanted, so a tithe is required, same as how it works today.

    March 2, 2012 at 6:29 pm Reply
  17. bla

    You forgot to mention that Oasa has drones and Deklein has Guristas Pirates. The way you get isk from Guristas is that you shoot em and your wallet fills up. For some more you salavage and loot the wrecks.

    This works very different for drones, where you have to loot them, refine the loot and ship them somwhere or build supers.
    This requires much more involvement. And is more suited for industrial corps.

    When drones would give bounties I''m sure Oasa would look very different.

    March 2, 2012 at 6:36 pm Reply
    1. Maid

      The only thing you do different in dronelands as a ratter is grab a noctis and loot all wrecks (which is made easy due to the 'loot all' button). After that you dock in a station and sell your drone poo for 90% Jita price to someone with a JF alt.

      No refining nor building is neccesary to make money.

      March 2, 2012 at 7:54 pm Reply
      1. Rol Dude

        because everyone has a JF :S

        March 2, 2012 at 10:13 pm Reply
  18. African

    We are in the space age, so I guess the Untied States got technology to indicate you have just put up a Nuke reactor. So Tower etc etc, would show up in Washinton DC, when you drop one in nr Tehran..

    March 2, 2012 at 7:21 pm Reply
  19. Budge

    If your a renter, and have no intrest in PvP, like 95% of the shadows…. why in gods name would you move into DOCS-O constellation, it's almost as if Ripard Teg doesn't know legion of xdeath is a sinking ship, and regions like Oasa are on fire atm. DOCS-O constellation itself is in titan jump bridge range of more then half of Cobalt, which is full of reds who have been hot dropping shadow members for the last 3 months.

    I'm sure there are a ton of other good systems under LOD's, or SOD's sov. that are not being used, but DOCS-O constellation is awful for renters, they would being getting killed, or camped pretty much non-stop. Like I said legion of xdeath is a sinking ship, the only reason PL protects LOD's sov. is b/c PL has a shit ton of CSAA in LOD's space, once those titans are out of the cookers LOD is pretty much done… unless Uxdeath can crash on goons couch. One thing that has b/c clear the last few weeks is RA, and legion are both getting thier eviction notices from drone region in the near future.

    March 2, 2012 at 7:24 pm Reply
  20. Fletch

    When I went to the Fanfest a few years ago I had a drink with a Dev in a pub. After a few drinks I got some info out of him.
    One of things (he said) disturbed the devs so much was that so few entitites could control so much space and basicly shut out so many.
    They toyed with the idea of removing local to make it so much harder for one single ship to scout many systems but came up with a compromise the wormhole.
    The vast majority of Null sec is a wasteland but then you could say the same about alot of low sec systems too.
    What the awnser is I have no idea but empty systems should be a massive drain on the wallets of the owners

    March 2, 2012 at 7:36 pm Reply
  21. ObserveR

    The empty nullsec system syndrome has been an issue in nullsec forever and will continue until the developers actually address the issue. To address the issue they first need to pinpoint the causes and target those. As with most of Eve it should be a matter of risk vs reward. I agree that ACTIVE occupancy should be rewarded but I think it would be better to encourage activity instead of requiring it. You generally catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
    The following are some ideas that I think might work but FIRST the rare moon issue must be fixed by CCP. If you want to promote activity then the moongoo needs to be decentralized from moons.

    1) Alliances must have a HQ system. Sov costs start at the normal rates closer to HQ and increase as distance from HQ increases.
    1a) All sov claimed systems must be connected by jumpgates to the HQ system or it will incur an additional Sov modifier.
    1b) Any sov claimed system that includes a Region Gate in its route to HQ incurs additional sov multiplier.

    2) Active Occupancy needs to offer a benefit to occupiers similar to the various bonuses you get from certain wormhole systems (armor, shield, speed etc.) with the percentage bonus based on activity.

    3) Setting other alliance/corps to a positive standing should have a cost associated with it and should increase dramatically as the positive list grows. The napfest and blob entities should have to pay for their blob reward.

    4) Institute some form of Constellation Sov/Occupancy system that gives some form of reward to the occupiers. Not sure about this idea yet but it would seem to encourage intelligent growth versus the "Look at me" growth that occurs now.

    March 2, 2012 at 8:07 pm Reply
  22. CareBearStares

    Interesting proposal.
    It's circumstances like this that give the game a false sense of being overcrowded.
    It doesn't help that the Null Empire's often campain for ways to force individuals out of Highsec. The unspoken consequence of this is the current situation. Camp in Empire, Run in Low Sec, Serve in Null.

    In the context of Industrialists – If you arent in High Sec, you'd have to deal with the chaos of Low Sec or the soul crushing isolation and logistics nightmare of W-S. This leaves you with only one option remaining, become a sharecropper for one of the Null Sec Empires paying billions out of your earnings to stay in a system.

    March 2, 2012 at 8:26 pm Reply
  23. Good Idea

    This seems like a pretty good idea and with a little refinement could allow smaller entities entrance into null sec making the game funner for everyone.

    However i think the biggest problem is how useless most of 0.0 has become, the true sec idea was terrible. The big alliances will still control all the good systems (true sec below -0.5) and there would be no motive for smaller alliances to live in 0.0 when they can make more money in empire and simply send gangs to low/null for pvp when they feel like it.

    March 2, 2012 at 8:32 pm Reply
  24. Deadloch

    As alliances get stronger and stronger, the amount of wealth increases. Like all Capitalist type countries and games, there's a few people that controls a lot of people. Since this game is based more on a Capitalist sort of view, we are seeing more and more of a class distinction. Carebears are the "Workforce", Pirates are the "Cons / Scam artists", Grunts are the "Military/Police", and the leadership of large alliances are the top 2% of EVE. Filthy rich and influential. As this game progresses, opportunities will decrease and it will come down in the end to a "There can be only 1" Highlander attitude. 1 Alliance absorbs another either militarily, economically or politically. There are only a few alliances left with the power to fight with the "Big Boys". When it comes down to 1 major entity, the game is done. The basis of the game will be it's death as well. Sure there will be piracy, scams and price gouging, but that's as far as it will go. A council of 4 – 8 people will run all of Null sec and everyone will pay through the nose for the opportunity to be in Null.

    March 2, 2012 at 8:47 pm Reply
    1. Standinginspace

      Occupy eve, man, fuckin 1 percenters, dude

      March 3, 2012 at 3:14 pm Reply
  25. Dirk MacGirk

    Perhaps the sov mechanic needs to change, but Comparison of these two regions is absurd and shows the writer's lack of understanding of how a true renter region works. Renters choose from the systems available to rent. As far as Shadow of Death is concerned, there is no obligation on the part of the renters to do a damn thing but pay their rent. No CTA requirements. It is purely business. Hence why you do not see high gate activity. Renters tend to operate within the system they rent with little need to jump gate anywhere. Between jump bridges and alliance cyno beacons for jump capable taxis, there is little need to use jump gates like the average Joe. While Shadow is large in numbers a good portion of its members are alts used for various industrial or logistics purposes. So to some extent the numbers are deceiving. But again, there are a good many reasons why the two regions are not comparable. That being said, there are many systems that are either unoccupied for various reasons or not fully utilized. The level of activity of a system is at the discretion of the renter. They can do as much or as little as they choose in order to cover their cost of doing business i.e. rent, sov, etc. as for stupid refineries sitting right next to other refineries, this was the result of bad decisions made in the early days following Tyrannis when it was so easy to build an outpost that every mining/ratting corp wanted their own personal refinery so as to not have to bother with hauling anywhere to refine. Call it bad community planning which has been resolved. As for an industrial alliance needing space: if you are an English speaker, contact Devin Lightfoot and ask about terms. Believe me, if you have the horsepower to make isk, the fee to rent is very manageable in relation to the isk that can be made. And for the record, this wasn't written by Devon. I put my real name to it so feel free to contact me if you need some answers on how to fill up space and set up shop. No matter what region you look at, you will either be a renter or a pet. Renters have no obligation but to pay rent. Pets pay in all sorts of ways. It's really your choice how you want to live and where.

    March 2, 2012 at 9:18 pm Reply
    1. Dirk MacGirk

      Wow, that was longer than I thought when typing thru my iPhone.

      March 2, 2012 at 9:22 pm Reply
    2. Shadowy guy

      +1 for truth

      March 3, 2012 at 3:39 pm Reply
    3. McWiener

      next time please press enter every once and a while. Currently the readability is unfortunately reduced to almost zero.

      March 5, 2012 at 12:54 pm Reply
    4. Marissa Rin

      A very good reply, I'd give it +10 or +20 for truth. The comparison is completely wrong. Deklein has been under GSF control for a long time without interruption. Oasa however has changed hands 2 times in the last 2-3 months, which has pretty much scared off all the previous renters or pets that lived there. As Dirk mentioned, renters don't have to participate in any or the owner's CTAs, their only obligation is to pay the rent. Furthermore any competent PVP alliance wouldn't want renters in their CTA fleets anyway, because they're more of a liability then an asset in such engagements. A renter in the majority of cases doesn't know anything about fleet operations, combat and procedures. And that's ok. That's why they rent space from people who can actually conquer it and hold it, instead of taking it over themselves. The level of activity, how much they utilize their space, is entirely up to them. As long as they pay their rent they can choose which way to utilize it. I myself used to look down on renters. Now that I know better how ISK flows from them towards my alliance and pays for the ships I wreck in combat, I've come to respect them a bit more. As far as I'm concerned, the more renters you have the better. If any of you reading this are member of a carebear or industrial alliance and know how to use space to earn ISK and want to rent, don't hesitate to send an eve mail to Marissa Rin. We have several systems available for rent, at good prices. :)

      Pets on the other hand pay for their space with other means, by providing manpower to fleets and/or industrial operations. In that regard they are sometimes expected to show for CTAs, although not all pet alliances have such arrangements. However, any real independent alliance that holds space and wants to hold it or conquer more in the end cannot rely on pets to help them too much. They can usually be assigned to light duties, but unless the top alliance doesn't have military might it will not be able to defend their space. And the best and most loyal troops you can have are your own, not those of your pets or some mercs.

      With regards to the placement of a bunch of refineries next to each other, I agree that this can be traced back to Tyrannis and the way it opened 0.0 to people coming in to exploit the space. It allowed for a lot of people to live in each system and pull nice incomes, which made station building interesting to the people utilizing that space. Most of those stations were set up by renters who had primarily their own interest in mind. After the nullsec nerf systems could not support nearly as much people as before, many of them becoming completely unusable. Previous users left, leaving the outposts there as testament to the thriving activity before the nerf.

      March 5, 2012 at 1:49 pm Reply
  26. Peggy from prime

    Drive through many of the western states in the US and Canada. Drive Across the middle of Australia. These areas are sparely populated but are without doubt sovereign territories to their respective countries. Your argument isn't valid and equating it to real life simply holds no merit. EVE is a game of groups and much like the real world, people will tend cluster together in order to facilitate commerce and defense. This will always lead to dead zones. I'd be interested in a density comparison in empire space since many times I fly though there are I'm taken by how empty certain areas are.

    March 2, 2012 at 10:17 pm Reply
  27. eve player

    And I’m sure, if you have an industrial alliance, you can have this constellation. As long as you pay xXDEATHXx through the nose for the privilege of living in a constellation they have no interest in whatsoever. And as long as you form up every pilot you have for every CTA that xXDEATHXx ever calls. And as long as you’re beholden to xXDEATHXx in every way. Anyone ready to sign up for that?

    just to quote the author. but may be that author of the above explain that mittani expects the exact same blind obedience from their pets as UAXDEATH.seem jester likes his bit of russian bashing while ignoring goons or mittani motivations.practicly every alliance uses their space diffrentlly and to use goons space as an example is a joke but who's is the joke on??? us or jester.and before im asked im not russian just fed up of the russian blame game that jester & goons l and the rest of eve's ills at the door of those big bad russians.

    March 2, 2012 at 11:26 pm Reply
    1. Shadowy guy

      ive been in shoadow for 6 months now and during this recent war with Solar and IRC not once was i told drop everything and come fight. sure it was offered "come have fun shooting reds" but thats it. FFS we dont even have a ship replacement program. PVP is optional in Shadow.

      And as for Paying Legion through the nose to hold space. its only a lot of isk if you suck at this game. our corp was in catch for 5 months befor we went to drone space and i can say that the amount of isk we made in the 5 months in catch we made there in 3 weeks. largely because no one jumps into your system every 5 min to try and kill you.

      March 3, 2012 at 3:30 pm Reply
  28. Peggy from prime

    The single Biggest thing CCP could do to increase 0.0 population would be to offer a cheaper mini jump freighter of sorts maybe max cargo of 75k – 100k That was no more than 2 bil in cost. This would dO more to move peeps than anything I can think of

    March 3, 2012 at 12:23 am Reply
  29. Lube

    It doesnt make much sense for me what you wrote here. Imagine you're a small Mexican based corp and there is some unused (yet) tundra land full of cookies in Russia or Canada. You want the official ownership because you went camping there? You can get the "work permit" by sucking their dicks or you can take this land by force or… you can FO and beg (CCP?) for the ownership right because you passed by. Besides how is the ownership going to actually help you if you cant defend this space? May be you want to own null sec and also have the pvp "opt out" checkbox in your settings? You wanna live in null sec, go live there. Put a pos or something:)

    March 3, 2012 at 12:52 am Reply
  30. Anonymouse

    Jester, you could have at least read the shadow of xdeathx renter rules before posting such nonsense.

    As for the constellation you mentioned in Oasa, there was someone using it prior to the IRC invasion a few months ago: A fleet of about 8 – 10 tengu/exequror bots farming it 23/7 and not paying the rent (I could see it available on the control panel for about 2b isk a week….)

    Goons have been in decline for what? Several years now? Why don't you compare apples to apples?

    March 3, 2012 at 2:14 am Reply
  31. Cannonball1

    While we're making poor real-world comparisons, let's consider these: Why can't any little independence group out there take and hold territory and create their own country? Because holding territory and creating a country requires capital, manpower, weapons, and recognition. Yet why are some groups successful? Because they find a more powerful regional or global benefactor. Sound familiar? I can't believe someone devoted a whole article to simply bitching about the renter system.

    Many 0.0 systems are essentially abandoned because there is no demand. If more people wanted the space, more people would be trying to take the space. Since few people who don't already have space are looking to gain space, entire regions remain uncontested.

    March 3, 2012 at 2:47 am Reply
  32. Standinginspace

    So, since we're going with RL analogies, the southern united states should be handed over to mexico? Kewl

    March 3, 2012 at 3:12 pm Reply
  33. Random Miner

    As much as this idea makes logical sense, it would probably cause a clusterfuck of epic proportions. Not living in null I'd enjoy watching the news of said clusterfuck, but as goonies clearly have the activity to claim so much more sov in this fashion, I am against it… lol

    March 3, 2012 at 9:34 pm Reply

    Has ever been thus and ever thus shall be.

    March 4, 2012 at 12:09 am Reply
  35. Some Dude

    DOCS constellation is a bad example because it is effectively unusable by xdeath now that they are red to IRC. The pocket is practically an annex of cobalt edge more than a true part of Oasa.

    Before the civil war there were botters living there. When Solar and xDeath started throwing punches, the botters turned blue to Solar and IRC with the understanding they'd relocate o a solar wing system. They then proceed to keep botting in that same constellation, so IRC turned them red and booted their asses. (IRC high command is anti-bot because they would prefer done region minerals to stay out of Hisec markets.)

    March 4, 2012 at 4:13 am Reply
  36. Grimm the TRUE!

    Botting is a core problem even with this; If the big alliances wouldn't have they're own bots to suply those huge amount of isks in order to keep the cap fleet floating, or instant ship replacement then it would be harder for them to steam roll every region in game. Smaller alliances would have a chance takeing on them. More fights, less lag, more player interaction, more activity in null sec.
    It's that easy..

    March 4, 2012 at 8:42 am Reply

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