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Here is a good read from the guys of The Elysian Empire, an excellent piece for those trying to learn a bit about the harshness of moving from high-sec to null/w-sec.

Disclaimer: this is the order of battle as far as I know it. I’m writing this with the approval of the rest of the alliance leadership, although I have not passed the text to them for prior review. I welcome the correction of any factual inaccuracies by any of the parties involved.

Wormhole Wisdom From The Elysian Empire.

The Elysian Empire had been on a training exercise invading a c2 wormhole from Hi-Sec. The operation had been a near complete success, and tired pilots were in the process of returning to our C6 home.

During this temporary lull in our normal activities and watchfulness, Norcorp were able to open a wormhole to our system and move in three capital ships and a small fleet. They were thus able to temporarily control our static, and we believed that they began cycling their static. They managed to connect to our c6a wormhole and brought in another three caps and assorted support ships through our static wormhole. In all, they brought four dreads and two carriers, and a total of 43 observed pilots (quite probably a few more).

They soon began to attack our POSes, and with our sparse numbers there wasn’t much we could do but watch and plan to counter attack when they came out of reinforced. Over the next two days, through some excellent displays of individual piloting, we managed to get more than a dozen pilots through their tenuous wormhole camp to reinforce our numbers, but we were still outnumbered by nearly 50%.

Our plan was to take them on when our first tower came out of reinforced, and we executed to great effect. Our ECM ships neutralised key ships in their fleet, our Bhaalgorn neuted their carriers and our dreads and DPS tore through the their armor, whilst our carriers valiently repaired our battleships. To Norcorp’s credit, they reinforced with more battleships and managed to take down several of our BSes, but in the end we’d killed all six of their caps, two bhaalgorn and anything else not fast enough to clear the field, with just 5 friendly battleships and one HIC as losses.

An utterly defeated Norcorp appeared to be preparing to retreat through our now-unguarded static, so we decamped there to mop up their remaining subcaps. They didn’t show immediately, so we decided to close the static they new about and camp the next one. Max Charge jumped his Archon, and as soon as his grid had loaded, he reported a massive AHARM fleet on the other side and immediately jumped back.

For those readers not familiar with wormhole maths, even the largest can usually accomodate three capital ships before collapsing, so we expected to face a maximum of one cap ship and possibly the AHARM support fleet of T3s and Guardians. Unfortunately for us, AHARM made use of a little known “bug” (some would say exploit) that apparently allows you to jump any amount of mass through a wormhole to bring their full force to bear. As the wormhole collapsed behind them Norcorps remaining subcaps landed, and we were somewhat surprised to see something like 35 AHARM T3s, two dreadnaughts, what looked like a dozen guardians in support and assorted HICs and BCs decloak. My dreadnaught got off a couple of swinging blows before falling to their superior numbers and massed DPS, and caught in a bubble I could only watch as my pod was yellow boxed by several of their pilots. I woke up in an empty clone in hisec, and listened to the swift destruction of the rest of the fleet, and then the reinforced towers.

Despite this eventual outcome, most of the pilots in the alliance remain up beat. Wormhole life isn’t for the feint of heart, and our against-the-odds victory over Norcorp was an excellent fight, and will keep us warm in the depths of space for some time to come, regardless of the size of the forces they can batphone for support.

– Cunning

Elysian Empire Campaign Killboard

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51 Comments

  1. rasz

    you call aharm cheaters?

    February 22, 2012 at 8:27 am Reply
    1. "Unfortunately for us, AHARM made use of a little known “bug” (some would say exploit) that apparently allows you to jump any amount of mass through a wormhole to bring their full force to bear."

      Idk if actually bug, but AFAIK if you jump from the return hole (the 162 WH) the mass is limitless. I once pushed a carrier thought one of those. So nothing fishy unless there is more to it.

      February 22, 2012 at 8:31 am Reply
      1. peon

        The K162 is absolutely mass limited. It's just that even the most mass-critical wormhole shove through one ship, as long as it fits. It just collapses the moment you jump through.

        Even if you time it together on vent, you'll rarely be able to squeeze more else through a collapsing hole. For AHARM to get a whole fleet through… that smells like exploit. Weren't they the ones who abused the shit out of the tracking disruptors in a C6 mag to get 250km uberweapons? Or were they on the receiving end of that one?

        February 22, 2012 at 9:50 am Reply
        1. HOLY WORMHOLES BATMAN! THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR THE ROOK AND KINGS!!

          ^_^ Clarion Call 4 script right there!

          February 22, 2012 at 9:51 am Reply
      2. whdweller

        dear lord you have no idea about wh's its people like you running for csm which is why we need some wh guy like two steps on it.

        seems like you guys had a good scrap and shows there are still issues with wh's being buggy

        February 22, 2012 at 1:25 pm Reply
      3. wh dweller

        You have no idea what you are talking about

        February 22, 2012 at 3:19 pm Reply
  2. Pacolipse

    3….2….1….. EVERYONE JUMP NOWWWW!!!!!!!!

    ya i can see how that might work

    February 22, 2012 at 9:04 am Reply
  3. Vile Rat

    AHARM Was caught cheating on a massive scale. They are scum-don't vote for cheating ass Two Step.

    February 22, 2012 at 9:21 am Reply
    1. WH dweller

      You have no idea what you are talking about.

      February 22, 2012 at 3:17 pm Reply
  4. zef

    *gasp* Aham cheats? who would have guessed.

    February 22, 2012 at 9:43 am Reply
  5. some dude

    Looks like riverini – again – has no clue what he is talking about.

    February 22, 2012 at 10:33 am Reply
  6. AHARM geezer

    This isn't what happened. We jumped 2 Dreads and 20 Subcaps through as soon as their Archon jumped. Elysian are butthurt because they stupidly put half their fleet on an unscouted wormhole. The only weird thing was that their Archon also made it back, which actually was in their favour.

    Don't let the truth get in the way of some good propaganda though…

    February 22, 2012 at 12:30 pm Reply
  7. GF?

    http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?144-

    Norcorp CEO Sandslinger wrote a BR of this event from the invading point of view.

    February 22, 2012 at 12:38 pm Reply
  8. Sandslinger

    For serious guys ! Ok here is what happened and we have the fraps of it all to prove it.

    You jumped to an unscouted hole (that we had had control over 100% of the time since we opened it) so we know it had no mass reduction whatsoever

    Aharm is on other side you guys see it panic and jump 1 carrier in we call out to aharm to jump in and they crossjumped with your carrier simultaneously with fleet + 3 caps.

    Why did the 3 one get in fuck knows ! however your carrier which should guaranteed have been locked out WASNT it managed to jump back AFTER the aharm fleet somehow. So end result you got one more carrier into the fight then what you should have got.

    PS your maths on that only one more carrier should have got in is bullcrap hole has 3 million mass (+-20%)
    one Carrier = -950 So now hole has potentially 2,5 left
    one more carrier = -950 so now it has 550 K left left thats enough for a 40 T3's + Another dread finally.

    So you saying that the hole should only have took one more capital is bullcrap.

    However Aharm did get an extra cap through and then somehow you guys managed to jump your back also after it ???

    How it happened we have no idea. However both of us has raised concerns about hole mass several times on the forums now. As we have found fresh holes being closed by one obelisk jumping through also

    Now to the numbersyou posted in the first fight here are the numbers as API verified by killboard

    You had 8 carriers and 4 dreads 4 bhaalgorns + support adding up to 35 people We had 2 carriers 2 dreads 2 bhaalgorns adding up to 25 people.

    And you somehow manage to make out that you were 50% outnumbered you had 4 times our carriers a massive force multiplier and double our bhaalgorns and a larger support fleet are you taking drugs of some kind ?

    (killboards are good trackers you know remember not to count duplicates now)

    I also have a video of your CEO openly telling me that you guys had a 100 man RA fleet ready to come and support you against us that you never managed to get in because we held hole control
    So to come here afterwards and cry woe that we batphoned is just pathetic.

    Also not that I actually felt like complaining about this but we now have a video of you guys doing a clearly pre planned mass logonski right on top of our fleet. You guys didnt even land inside the pos when you logged on you had all logged off in the exact spot we had used earlier to siege your pos.

    PS that is considered an exploit, not that we minded we were impressed you had managed to get it organised like that as we mentioned in our very generous battle report.

    Seriously man go back to primary school or something. Or at least stop blatantly lying your ass off.

    First fight you guys surprised our ass we weren't expecting such good resistance or to be so massively outnumbered in capitals. in the second fight you guys derped by initally warping half your fleet to a unscouted hole.

    As to the majority of your alliance we found them to be very cool guys and some nice chats was had etc but this post is just facepalm and i hope it doesn't relect the rest of your alliance.

    Regards Sandslinger CEO of Norcorp

    February 22, 2012 at 12:41 pm Reply
    1. Greig Hul

      There seems to be a number of stories floating around on this one… who'd have thunk our little wormhole scrap would end in this eh?

      I've posted back on the eveo forums, in the wormhole mass thread, my thoughts on the matter – I can assure you that whilst timed to perfection, we didn't all log on at a preplanned spot. We came in from multiple safes that were stored the night before. We had a cloaky hovering over your dreads providing the warp in. In reality we had the fleet the night before whilst watching the last POS get reinforced, but the decision was made to wait until the first POS came out of reinforced to try and catch as many NorCorp pilots as humanly possible in one swift blow. This plan worked to perfection, and was in a word overkill. But we had no idea that your guys would straggle into the field and we were basically expecting an all in fight from the get go.

      The original plan for myself was to warp my neuting domi to a carrier in safe and swap out for a carrier stored bhaalgorn (picked up a day before when we were shuffling around our capitals and not fighting…I was one of the last to arrive back in the C6 which meant my preparation had to fall to others), then warp in with the carrier to land on the field. NorCorp posting dreads on the tower unguarded meant a last minute change, we logged into our safes and warped to zero on our scout then immediately swapped out for bhaals.

      As for numbers, there was a fair bit of duel boxing going on. My esteemed colleague may be mistaking pilots for players. To be honest I don't think anybody was doing a headcount.

      For my part, I'm not butt hurt – I'll openly agree that the decision to not scout the hole was the deciding factor. And we all agree the wormhole in question was at least not behaving as we have all become accustomed to. What we saw on the opposite end was the AHARM jump after our archon returned, but thinking back on it my grid was lagging like crazy, i saw one flash, then got a choppy client, then the archon decloak, then a flurry of gate fire. The assumption at the time was that the archon had in fact jumped first and arrived first, but not having a scout on the other side I will personally turn to AHARM's account for the jump order – the initial gate fire could well have been the first AHARM ship landing, then lag.

      For my mind at least, the concern is not that AHARM deliberately cheated here – I think that the circumstance in which the extra cap jump occured, if replicable has potential for huge abuse, and as such we have asked CCP the question "is this how it should work". AHARM were well aware that they were outnumbered capital wise – so if they DID know how to deliberately invoke a bug on wormhole mass, I would have assumed they'd of brought more than two moros into the fray. Based on that assumption alone, I'm not calling shenanigans.

      Unfortunately backroom theory crafting about what might be possible with existing wormhole jump mechanics may have lead some to jump to an "extra cap, therefore exploit" conclusion. As a party to such theory crafting, I can probably shoulder some of the blame, however my council then as now is there is only speculation, and a currently set of circumstances that no party has yet been able to replicate. Given recent publicity on previous supergun shenanigans, it is not difficult to see how such a conclusion could be made – rightly or wrongly.

      Anyway, hope that clears things up from my side at least. Not that my side matters much, our corp is a tiny one – don't even think we had pilots left at home to participate in the fire sale once it was all done, and our contribution to the fleet fight was only 4.

      February 22, 2012 at 1:12 pm Reply
      1. some w-space hermit

        FWIW, coming from another w-space corp, shit gets really weird when you jump a bunch of stuff simultaneously, especially with the new delay on mass-state transitions. We've even seen someone appear on-grid on the other side of a WH, only to have them "snapped back" to the start system with the wormhole gone. At the same time, we've heard a couple stories like this one where jumping a bunch of stuff within about 5 seconds will let it all get through because the mass calculator on the server just doesn't keep up.

        I wouldn't call that an exploit so much as a fluke, but I'd be pretty pissed too if someone slipped that much through a hole I expected to have collapsed long since.

        February 22, 2012 at 2:06 pm Reply
        1. Greig Hul

          can't speak for the others, but I'm not "pissed"… we caught NorCorp with their pants down, we then got messed up on a wormhole after, mostly down to inadequate scouting, and NorCorp's persistent control of our wormholes which really didn't let up for days. I'm surprised that so many of our cap pilots managed to make it back in to be honest – we were resorting to hilarious stealth bomber distraction techniques, and carefully orchestrated "you fly up, i'll fly down" tactics to clear the bubble.

          This is how its played, you win some you lose some. Both fights were the biggest things I've personally been involved in inside of wormhole space, which probably speaks for my limited experience more than anything else. Massed capital fights in wormholes are always fun to look at on youtube but actually participating in them is very cool.

          Whatever the opinion of my alliance, I'll stick with what evidence and logic dictates – and really the only evidence we have is a potential bug on the hole which resulted in an extra capital ship on the field. It played no major role in the subsequent battle in my ever so humble, and as often reminded by my colleagues, inexperienced opinion.

          February 22, 2012 at 2:31 pm Reply
        2. Sandslinger

          Hey
          What you describe with people getting snapped back is how it is meant to work by the way.
          We tested trying to jump 4 caps through hole that was already reduced the next day and 1 got through and the rest looked as though they jumped then got snapped back with a traffic control message. This is working as intended by the way.

          However we have lost 3 obelisk so far that we have jumped one time out of a 5 second old hole that we just opened and hole closed. So there is definetily something very very weird going on.

          We will keep testing this to find the fault I suspect there might be more then one bug at play though perhaps one of them has to do with crossjumping in some way.

          February 22, 2012 at 2:54 pm Reply
    2. Sandslinger

      Ha Ha Just watched video again AHARM only took in 2 dreads and no carrier.
      So basically you calling it a sploit is just utter utter shite. The only sploit was the fact that you guys managed to jump your carrier back as well after aharms fleet.

      you should post a public apology for posting this junk tbh

      February 22, 2012 at 1:12 pm Reply
      1. Cunning

        As I said at the top of the report, it was based on my personal understanding of what happened, and if I've got anything wrong, I'm more than happy to admit it here or anywhere else.

        Firstly, numbers of ships: I believe I overstated the size of the Norcorp/aharm force, I count 33 pilots in the aharm fraps of the battle vs 13 EE pilots. There might have been a few +/- on each side during the battle.

        My understanding of events was that Max Charge jumped out, then back, then aharm jumped in with subcaps and two dreads*. What we found very odd is that you would do this knowing that you would have no control over which of your ships would make the jump, unless you knew they would all make it**. I'll freely admit that the jump from "that's odd" to "zomg sploitzor!" doesn't stand up to rigorous logical scrutiny, but due to aharm's past history and the surprise of your appearance, some people lept to that conclusion, which is exactly what I reported.

        *: You guys contest that Max jumped first and claim that you jumped before Max jumped back, which would make your actions totally reasonable. I wasn't there, so if this is what your fraps shows I'll happily concede this and the rest of the last is moot. Unfortunately the only fraps you've made public starts just after the jump, so I can't make that determination based on the evidence available to me at the moment. If you publish more please let me know and I'll definitely take a look.

        ** I am given to understand there was an undisclosed mechanic change in crucible 1.1 which means that the WH mass is now only reduced once you land in the target system, rather than when you hit jump, so there is a window of opportunity to jump more stuff through a wormhole that would have closed under the previous mechanics. Some people are claiming (justly or not) that knowingly using this bug is an exploit, but if you read my phrasing as an accusation of unfair conduct then I'm afraid I wasn't clear enough (it had been a rather long night by the time I wrote that report). What I think everyone wants want to know is wether this bug/fluke/whatever is a) repeatable and b) allowed, because if it is both then it's a massive change to wormhole mechanics, and would effectively render wormhole minimisation totally pointless.

        As ever, all I want is to know what happened and why. That's a pretty typical response to encountering something unexpected IMO, especially if it costs you dearly. Once the battle was joined you guys did an excellent job of taking us apart, and made the most of the opportunity. No hard feelings about that.

        February 22, 2012 at 7:06 pm Reply
  9. Sandslinger

    Oops. It was meant to read 4 dreads for our side not 2 Derpy Derpy !

    February 22, 2012 at 12:43 pm Reply
  10. Shinobi Jonin

    And what is this stuff about us reinforcing with more battleships ?? we had one single battleships with us, one megathron

    Seriously your own killboard linked there shows you are talking utter rubbish, is there no editor that has to proofread articles made on here at all ?

    February 22, 2012 at 1:07 pm Reply
      1. Sandslinger

        Those battleships were part of the force the entire time they were not reinforcements check killboard those guys do not appear previously.

        you did notice that we came in more or less one by one yeah. As stated in my Failheap BR we had underestimated you at this point and didn't expect a fight at all so people were simply AFK.

        February 22, 2012 at 7:27 pm Reply
        1. Cunning

          I called them reinforcements because they showed up once we'd engaged. I didn't suggest they came from anywhere else, just that they weren't on grid when the shooting started – hope that clarifies things.

          We'd identified around 40 norcorp toons in our WH, compared to our 25 or so available to fight, so we expected a really tough battle. We knew you had Bhaalgs, and we'd spotted that you've previously used 4-5 of them in one engagement. We'd logged off at safes the previous day in preparation, got a cloaky in position to provide a warp in and dropped the hammer when your dreads went into siege. As it turns out, our attempts to hide our numbers had been so sucessful you didn't deploy in the strength we expected.

          February 22, 2012 at 9:02 pm Reply
  11. Max Charge

    The simple fact is, the mass limit on a W237 wormhole is 3b Kg, and the jump of a single carrier/dread is >1b Kg. What the Elysian Empire puzzled by is how 4 capital jump plus 20+ subcap jumps were possible.

    Furthermore, if Aharm were unaware of this mechanic/bug/exploit, why did they deicide to jump 2 Moros after the Archon had already jumped back? They surely would have felt it was too great a risk to jump 2x Moros in case they trapped their subcaps behind? Had they done so, their moros' would have been of little aid and been swiftly mopped up along with Norcorp survivors making a break for freedom.

    It therefore seems obvious that Aharm 'knew' about his mechanic/bug/exploit and used it in full knowledge of its outcome. No other scenario makes logical sense – unless it was a blunder on their part.

    February 22, 2012 at 1:51 pm Reply
    1. Sandslinger

      Wow you fail hard at maths here really really hard.

      I have shown how it works Two step shown how it works.

      Hope you don't actually live in wormholes cuz either you don't know how they work OR

      You can't do primary school mathematics.

      February 22, 2012 at 2:57 pm Reply
      1. Cunning

        Now now, no need to be rude here.

        I think the central point of contention is wether Max jumped back from Nova before Aharm jumped out of Nova or not. Aharm say they jumped first, and Max thinks he jumped first. If there's fraps of it, then please post it so we can all see who is right.

        February 22, 2012 at 7:13 pm Reply
        1. Sandslinger

          Those battleships were part of the force the entire time they were not reinforcements check killboard those guys do not appear previously.

          We have Fraps from our side Aharm has the other I think.

          From our side it goes like this on Ts

          Norcorp : Aharm are you ready to jump they are landing on the hole.
          Aharm : ready now
          Norcorp : Aharm their carrier jumped in GO GO GO
          Aharm : With no hesitation calls JUMP

          Or iow they jumped while your carrier had the 20 second hole timer.
          Now think about it we are sitting looking at a hole telling them whats going on. Why would they wait 20 seconds extra and allow you to close them out just to get the chance to use some kind of exploit instead ??. Does that make some kind of convoluted sense to you ?

          No offence but your grasping at straws here. The only exploit used was how you managed to get your carrier back in to your system. It's ok though we will believe it is a bug of some sort if you say that's what it was

          Mind you even if it had won you the battle somehow we wouldn't be here crying about it or posting allegations about it because crying foul with no proof just to smear people is frankly the dirtiest act possible

          Oh and as to your revisited numbers on top, you somehow got it wrong again. writing BR's from figths you actually weren't in just hearing accounts from a lot of people and looking at killboard doesn't make you look very good.

          Know the story of the 3 blind men and the elephant. Thats how your entire post and replies comes across.

          February 22, 2012 at 11:31 pm Reply
  12. Max Charge

    As for the result once badly outnumbered on the wormhole, the result was inevitable. The Elysian Empire wormholers fought to the last man, and full credit to Aharm for coming to the rescue of their soundly beaten pets.

    It seems there are few C6 wormhole groups that can leave their wormholes well enough defended to go on the offensive for long, and we came unstuck because of this. That said, what's to stop a 200 strong cap fleet jumping through together now that we know of this new trick? Hmmm… maybe even the mighty aharm should be worrying…??? 😉

    February 22, 2012 at 1:53 pm Reply
    1. OMG

      Because this 'exploit' that you harp on about DOES NOT EXIST. It was fixed ages ago.

      AFTER 3 BIL MASS, THE HOLE WILL COLLAPSE. PERIOD.

      l2 wormhole space… the 'new' trick isnt a trick at all. It is a random shitfuck of an excuse for your shit wormhole control.

      February 22, 2012 at 3:16 pm Reply
  13. Two step

    I'm impressed how much work Elysian Horde is doing to smear AHARM here. We have fraps of the whole thing. Their story has changed several times. First the hole was below 50%, then it wasn't. First we moved 3 capitals, then we didn't. The *truth* is that the order of jumps was:

    1) Their carrier into us
    2) Our first dread out
    3) Our subcap fleet out
    4) Our second dread out
    5) Their carrier back out

    The wormhole should have closed after #4. It was to their benefit that it didn't close, as their carrier was in the fight instead of dying on the other side of the closed hole.

    Either way, CCP is looking into the issue. To accuse us of some sort of "bug" or exploit is simply irresponsible. A reasonable "journalist" would have actually talked to someone on the other side, especially given that Riverini is running against me for the CSM is just a little fishy…

    February 22, 2012 at 2:28 pm Reply
    1. Cunning

      Initial reports might have been confused (we weren't in any position to sit around sipping G&Ts counting things, I personally was already sat on a virtual sofa in hisec), but as I've clarified elsewhere in the thread, we think the WH was near to 100%. As far as we know, this is how it went down:

      1) Our carrier jumped out
      2) our carrier jumped back
      3) all of your fleet jumped in nearly simultaneously, including two dreads

      That's why we thought it was really odd. If you've got fraps from your side that shows you jumping first, or jumping your subcaps first then I'd love to have a look.

      February 22, 2012 at 8:41 pm Reply
    2. CSM Doofus

      OK, since we have a CSM member talking from his rear harmonic here in front of the entire eve community it's time I underline the truth just one more time – CCP/CSM voters out there please take note. Let's not let this guy wriggle off the hook! 😉

      Here is what happened (yawn):

      1). Elysian Archon Jumps
      2). Elysian Archon Jumps Back
      3). Entire aharm fleet jumps at once – including 2 Moros

      Whichever way you look at this their FC would never have decided to jump any cap ships with his main fleet having seen the archon jump back. The only reason can be that aharm 'knew' about this exploit, and in fact I've been told they found something out about this a few weeks back.

      It's well known that aharm kept exploits secret for a long time and used them in major engagements before. Credit to Rooks and Kings for catching them out.

      Funniest thing is that this time they have something to lose – Two Step is running for CSM again, and is still working with CSM on behalf of all of us eve players. Or is he working with them on behalf of himself.. I forget.. 😉

      Fly dangerous folks o/

      February 23, 2012 at 10:15 pm Reply
      1. Greig Hul

        I've stated an explaination which satisfies both accounts of the battle – aharm jumped a dread, held cloak, aharm jumped fleet, held cloak, aharm jumped dread, held cloak…somehere in this giant cacophony of jumps Elysian Archon jumped back and DIDN'T hold cloak.

        So from the recieving end it look liked a single gate activation, decloaking archon while giant pile of gate activations.. the single gate activation was more than likely the initial aharm dread loading grid on the opposite side.

        I am satisfied, based on conversations with many people involved on both sides that this is the most likely order of events. The issue aharm found "weeks" ago was one which would have allowed no-risk collapsing and this was fixed. It is possible that this fix was the indirect cause of buggy wormholes which lead to the extra capital jump.

        As stated before, the capital jump had no baring on the outcome of the battle. The biggest weapon entities like aharm bring to the table is not dreadnaughts and massed T3s, its a psychological weapon which exists from hard earned battles and a reputation for having the biggest fortress in wormhole space.

        Being caught for previously exploiting doesn't mean immediately that everytime they beat someone they exploited to do it. Suggesting this is incredibly illogical and if this much exploiting was going on they would be ban hammered from the game.

        Please lets not turn this into a platform for wannabe CSM candidates to launch platforms. The fight was good. It was fair. Elysian Empire fucked up and died for it. I was there fighting for them until the bitter end and I have absolutely no problem with the way this fight went down.

        The way Two Step and sandslinger have handled this matter with me in private has been nothing but professional. My feeling is that they are upstanding members of the eve community and suggesting otherwise is a load of horse shit. Can we get back to how the fights were good, and how everyone had a great time participating in them? Surely that is more interesting then CSM politics and non-existant exploits.

        February 24, 2012 at 12:19 am Reply
  14. Cunning

    Writer of the original battle report here:

    I haven't seen the aharm fraps yet, but subsequent information gathering suggests that the WH was indeed at nearly full mass when our Archnon jumped. If any of our pilots stated otherwise then they were probably honestly in error than trying a smearjob on NorCorp/aharm. Our pilots are a straightforward and honourable bunch, and if anyone on our side has "changed their story" then it's because they had bad intel and have since been corrected. We don't have anything to fear from the truth, and we'd love to know exactly what happened and why, but of course we only have half of the picture.

    All sides agree that something strange happened with the wormhole mass, and from where we were sat it looked very fishy. Given aharm's documented history with creative use of game mechanics, we concluded they had pulled another rabbit out of their wormhole. If it turns out everything was "working as intended" then hats off to them for making the best use of game mechanics.

    We didn't scout the hole, and that was obviously an oversight, but perhaps an understandable one. The entire alliance was fighting a battle whilst heavily outnumbered, and that the wormhole had been camped very thoroughly until that battle. The chances of our C6 static wormhole just randomly opening directly to the largest ally of the guys we were fighting were so small that it didn't even cross my mind. If NorCorp had been aggressively cycling the hole we'd have been suspicious, but they'd shown no interest in it other than to keep us away. I guess they were just fortunate.

    I'm not going to claim that we were emotionally neutral about the whole affair – if we didn't care who won or lost we wouldn't bother playing the game – but as I said at the top of the report the info was what was known to me at the time. We had a lot of fun fighting Norcorp, and had no idea they had a deux ex machina waiting in the wings.

    Funnily enough I agree with sandslinger that if AHARM had ridden to the rescue of NorCorp at the reinforced POS rather than waiting for them to fall, it would have been a truly epic battle. As it was we had two fights that we'll remember for a long time, for very different reasons.

    February 22, 2012 at 4:04 pm Reply
    1. Two step

      I'm sorry, but jumping straight from "something fishy" to "AHARM is exploiting" is simply wrong. EVE is a game with many bugs. There is a whole thread on eve-o about how wormholes have been fucked up since the last patch. The likely explanation is that the buggy wormhole let through an additional capital. We have evidence that it was one of your caps that was the extra, but even if it wasn't, we had the forces there to beat you guys.

      I understand you are upset at losing your home, but whining about exploits won't change that. You guys had a great battle against NorCorp, and you aren't going to be getting any credit for that, because you chose instead to whine about the battle you lost later.

      February 22, 2012 at 4:12 pm Reply
      1. CSM Doofus

        One step… get elected – christ knows how lol
        Two step… use that power to gain knowledge of 'bugzzz' and use em to your full advantage!

        Not sure that'll be a great vote winner next time around?

        February 22, 2012 at 5:23 pm Reply
  15. DUCK

    Sure is rage in here

    February 22, 2012 at 4:41 pm Reply
    1. MR MISS

      Yep, and a lot coming from the guys who won for some reason.

      February 23, 2012 at 7:52 am Reply
  16. hurr

    i love you guys still think 40 man t3 blobs and capital support on batphone standby is still some kind of small gang warfare mecca. More like nullsec mk2.

    February 22, 2012 at 4:57 pm Reply
    1. Greig Hul

      Its really not possible to "batphone" as it currently stands. In C6 land, there is a roughly 1 in 100 chance that the connection you want is going to be available at any point in time. Its not like you can just chuck a cap fleet on standby and wait for your friends to scream down comms that they are being slaughtered.

      In this case, the 1 in 100 chance fell norcorp's way. It was an exceedingly lucky occurance, as we have no evidence of active chain cycling for nova in the leadup. AHARM happened to be there, they decided to join their friends' party. End of story.

      Even if there WAS chain cycling going on, it is an extremely hit and miss afair which leads to very tired and very bored pilots. To do it and have everyone stay logged on ready to pounce is a very difficult thing to do, no matter how many pilots your corporation has available to it. Yes sometimes you can hit your target hole immediately, or in a few hours…but sometimes you can be at it for days on end and get nothing. To time the arrival of the perfect connection at just the right time for a tower to come out of reinforced has such extrodinarilly long odds that it borders on the realms of impossibility.

      February 23, 2012 at 1:57 am Reply
  17. Cunning

    Wasn't exactly a question of getting lax – we were expecting a turkey shoot at the wormhole, so our dreads had gone to reship into something to hit subcaps. Unfortunately for us, it was a turkey shoot, and we were the turkeys.

    We certainly didn't have 35 pilots – looking at the bit of the aharm fraps where the guy scrolls through is overview, I count 13 of us and 33 of you guys. If you have a more accurate count, please send a screenshot.

    February 22, 2012 at 9:10 pm Reply
    1. Sandslinger

      you were expecting a turkey shoot as you say so instead of checking the hole you warped a third of your fleet too it and got turkey shoot while your main fleet warped in little by little but mostly managed to escape again.

      So in Stark contrast to your members posts we did not massively outnumber you in the first fight you outnumbered us by a whole third. and in the last we outnumbered you by 1/4 still with capital and bhaalgorn inferiority. Not our fault you didn't respond quicker.

      But meh you guys can run and scream and be pissed off all you want, We expected better to be honest. everyone we spoke to on the night were cool as hell.

      This is why we offered blue status and help for your guys to evacuate their ships and so forward, making me regret it all now….

      February 22, 2012 at 11:42 pm Reply
  18. Crackbunny

    Lets just leave it at GF, cause no matter how you look at it, that is what is was.. No need for namecalling, bitterness or wild accussations

    February 22, 2012 at 9:53 pm Reply
    1. Sandslinger

      Ever the voice of reason dear Crack =)

      Yeah good funs and hope to see you guys in C6 again.

      Special call out to Grieg Hul awesome guy awesome corp. !!!

      February 22, 2012 at 11:44 pm Reply
      1. Greig Hul

        Would not go that far…. but thanks none the less. I'm simply trying to call it like I saw it. Everything else is interesting speculation which should be directed towards determining whether or not it is POSSIBLE to exploit the jump mechanic, without getting into baseless accusations of exploits and shinanagans.

        Even if it were discovered that it is exploitable, it doesn't immediately ring "smoking gun" because there is no evidence that in this case the bug was specifically used for evil and short of an inside man in AHARM, such evidence can never be actually attained. In the absense of any evidence the benefit of any doubt (and I will reitterate, I personally have no doubt to speak of here) has to fall to AHARM.

        For the sake of the wormhole community as a whole, hatchets should be buried and we should be pooling our information to figure this out because if it is exploitable you can bet your little cotton socks that wormholes as we know them will cease to exist. I for one would hate to see the last true place for small gang warfare turned into blobbing and bat phones.

        I'm completely disappointed that our glorious victory (and if you have fraps of THIS fight I'd love to see it from NorCorps perspective) has become buried under this irrational and illogical crap.

        February 23, 2012 at 1:17 am Reply
      2. Cunning

        Was definitely a good fight, and I for one will be up for another one soon.

        It's unfortunate, but understandable in hindsight, that four words of admitted hearsay have taken the focus of what was meant to be a straight up report of two pretty epic battles. I'll hold my hands up and say that it shouldn't have been included in the original report.

        In fact, if riverini wouldn't mind amending the report, I'd like to change the contentious sentence "AHARM made use of a little known “bug” (some would say exploit) that apparently allows you to jump any amount of mass through a wormhole to bring their full force to bear. " to "there was some kind of glitch with the wormhole mass which allowed AHARM to bring their full force to bear", which still reflects my current understanding of what happened, but removes the contentious issue of "teh sploitzorz". Obviously the original wording should be noted so that half of these comments make sense :-)

        February 23, 2012 at 10:01 am Reply
  19. Omen Nihilo

    The OP sounds quite confident that AHARM used an exploit, perhaps thinking it would be easy to pin the loss on a corp previously convicted of using an exploit. Reading the comments below he seems to have a wealth of excuses for the weak accusation.

    TL;DR: you really shouldn't post public accusations based on second-hand evidence. And you definitely shouldn't accuse someone based on little (zero) evidence. 😐

    Irregardless, I too would like to see the fraps. :)

    February 23, 2012 at 12:42 am Reply
  20. walsyphylu

    Lol..

    February 23, 2013 at 7:45 am Reply
  21. GF?

    LOL

    February 22, 2012 at 2:59 pm Reply

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