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Jester’s Trek: TEST Case.

Welpfleet got into its first major supercap fight:

http://kb.raidenalliance.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=33703

The Welpfleet Canes destroyed two super-carriers (a Hel and a Wyvern) and nine carriers, for the loss of about 150 BCs and virtually their entire special team.  On the one hand, it’s a clear victory for GSF: the new tactic worked, even with a very large supercap contingent on the field.  On the other hand, I have to wonder if RaidenDOT didn’t play this one a little dumb.  There were very few GSF hictors and dictors on the field.  All the GSF hictors were killed to the last ship in about three minutes, and it appears that their dictors were popped as quickly as they appeared.

So why lose any super-caps at all?  Was the GSF fleet doing that much DPS?  The time-stamps on the kills give us some clues: it looks like Raiden started attacking the hictors too late.  The Hel died while three of the hictors were still standing.  The Wyvern died about five minutes later with one hictor either still alive or dying almost simultaneously.

So that’s lesson one: if you’re going to bring your super-cap fleet, make sure they make killing hictors and dictors a priority.  Once the hictors were dead, Raiden took no further super-cap losses.

As for the carrier kills… the number of carriers on the field — about 15 — is clearly insufficient.  In a major fleet fight, carriers need to be used en masse or not at all.  There’s no way this small number of carriers could support each other in the face of the GSF attack, even if they’d been R&K Pantheon fit.  They weren’t.  All but one were somewhat hardened triage carriers that wouldn’t have lasted two minutes under that many GSF Canes.  There’s no way any of them survived even a single triage cycle, and in triage, they can’t get reps from the other carriers on field, even if the reppers on the other carriers had been ideal, which they definitely were not.

So, overall for this first test case of the Welpfleet, victory doesn’t go to the winner so much as the loss goes to the loser.  Raiden played this one really dumb.  The individual Raiden pilots (that lived) seemed to have a grand time, but the FC really should have looked more closely at his fleet composition before taking this GSF gang on.

One final note: if you are a kill-board whore and were to pick a side to be part of in this fight, assuming you lived, which side would you have wanted to be on?  The GSF side got 11 capital and super-capital kills, plus a half-dozen expensive sub-cap kills, worth some 50 billion ISK on their individual kill-boards.  The Raiden. side, on the other hand, killed almost 200 ships.  The ISK killed wasn’t anything even approaching the GSF tally, but getting on even half of those 200 kill-mails is a battle you’d remember for a long, long time.  😉  Kinda fun to think about.

Anyway, you can bet the other Welpfleet targets out there will be studying this test case closely and deciding how to adapt.

Ripard Teg

About the Author: Playing EVE Online for more than four years, play under the main Ripard Teg. Currently afflicted with the much maligned “Bitter-Vet” disease, Ripard Teg travels through the New Eden landscape in search of a cure… and hopefuly a good adventure to share with his readers.

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36 Comments

  1. wallkeg

    lolshieldsupers
    That's what you get for bringing Hels and Wyverns to an organized armorgang.

    September 12, 2011 at 4:01 pm Reply
    1. GrathTelkin

      Yea, except armor supers die just as fast to it. With that many canes you have 0 hardeners after 3 cycles, or about 18-20 seconds.

      The DPS per cane is so so, the DPS from 200 canes, well, that's entirely different.

      September 12, 2011 at 4:24 pm Reply
      1. Neutered to Hel

        The neuting from 200 canes isn't something I'd skip, either…

        September 12, 2011 at 4:55 pm Reply
        1. bagehi

          I can only imagine what it would look like to have the cap in a super drained that fast. A surreal experience, I'm sure.

          September 12, 2011 at 5:37 pm Reply
      2. wallkeg

        Having passive hardeners in cargo in case you get neuted is nothing special anymore bro. That combined with HG Slaves, ZET, Titanbonuses and tons of other supers spidertanking makes armor-supers superior in any way. We would look at a battlereport with a few carriers and a lot of canes killed today if it wasn't for Raiden allowing useless hulls on the field, I'm sure of it.

        September 12, 2011 at 4:56 pm Reply
      3. Chris

        dps from a cane is so so? ships that can poor out 700dps and neut are not "so so" lol… only thing that can poor out that much dps t1 under BS class as far as i know is a brutix that can push 1000dps, but you have to be sucking the tit of the enemy to do it and will get smartbombed to death doing it…

        As for the writer, 100 kills vs 15 carriers and 2 supers…. honestly i'd prefer the carriers and supers on my killboard stats as 100 kills u can do in a fleet with 1 solid bombing run… getting on 2 super kills is rare

        September 12, 2011 at 5:13 pm Reply
        1. bagehi

          Super kills are worth their weight in gold.

          September 12, 2011 at 5:36 pm Reply
  2. islador

    Sounds like one hell of a fight, for both sides. As far as KB whoreing, i'd wanna be on goons side, it's the good ole goon strategy. You've got 100 supers, we've got 200 barely BC capable pilots, I think your side is going to cry more 😛

    September 12, 2011 at 4:24 pm Reply
  3. wicked

    Cmon NC had such a great campaign against DRF, when IT was still there we had so many good fights against GSF and TEST in fountian, when AAA was retaking Catch it was so much fun. But now it seems its all static some random fights here and there.. meh

    Stupid DRF and GSF whit their sisy peace shit need to go down and needs to go down badly.

    September 12, 2011 at 4:26 pm Reply
  4. Nullnoob

    yeah i want to be on the GSF on this one, canes are a dime a dozen but carrier kill are ones that you remember.

    September 12, 2011 at 4:50 pm Reply
  5. SgtSimons

    i pick the side that gets to loot the field soooo much ISK!!

    September 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm Reply
    1. bagehi

      I'm sure people were on those two super wrecks like goons on a pizza joint.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:35 pm Reply
    2. Dek grunt

      IIRC, all 3 SCs wrecks courtesy of the welpfleet have been popped.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:57 pm Reply
  6. Roland_Hova

    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10… – EVE kill battle report
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59Zsg – 25 video of the fight with Mr. Vee fcing the rape sex with both super kills.

    As I read it the DC fleet lost about 100 subcapitals not 150 or 200, But I cant seem to access the KB you linked (as of this posting), and with EVE kills recent change I would expect some bugs. I also can't do a battle report doctor but if you manually count out all the DC deaths it comes out to 100. Not that it matters though, Welpfleet is about dieing while killing expensive toys not KD or isk loss ratio bullshit.

    Battle plays out as such. Vee engages Abaddons. Radian drops super carrier blob with carrier support. Goons rape Abaddons (IRC bails during the fight) and attack the super carrier blob. Radain rage broadcasts and try's to hit the I win button by dropping titans and even more super carriers. You can clearly see all the capitals on grid that didn't make it on a killmail and therefore the battle report. we kill two and GTFO.

    If anything it is a morale victory for DC and a negative one for Radian/NCdot.

    September 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm Reply
    1. Imigo

      That video is beautiful, thanks for sharing it. Always nice to see big ships go boom.

      Losing super capitals to a battlecruiser fleet has to hurt morale (replaced already or not). Losing them while having subcap support around being ignored has to hurt even more.

      My only issue with this fleet was that it had just finished when I woke up on Sunday morning 😛

      September 13, 2011 at 11:56 am Reply
  7. RDN guy

    This battle was unfortunate, but nothing we cant handle. SC and carriers are replaced already. See ya for round 2.

    September 12, 2011 at 5:40 pm Reply
    1. Howaboutit

      I've heard that statement before, and I'm happy to say it's always from the side on their way to the grave.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:24 pm Reply
    2. Nullnoob

      I am pretty sure if you don't mind losing them, GSF will gladly keep killing them. FYI the cane fleet was replaced as well. I wonder what can be built quicker?

      September 12, 2011 at 7:59 pm Reply
    3. RDN GUY IS STUPID

      Super pilots don't like lose their supers stupidly though, even if they are reimbursed. NOOBS!

      September 13, 2011 at 1:55 am Reply
    4. Imigo

      Has the lost morale been replaced yet?

      September 13, 2011 at 11:06 am Reply
    5. hellion86

      Thats not true at all, i dont see a new carrier in my hangar

      September 13, 2011 at 2:26 pm Reply
  8. hellion86

    There were at least 2 different fights there, one before against a smaller razor gang which attributes to some of the kills.

    "even if the reppers on the other carriers had been ideal, which they definitely were not." Raiden. was there to rep up a tower, so most of the carriers were shield rep heavy which over all leads to the lack of ideal reps and they were being pop'd too quickly to be effective at repping the hel or wyvern

    September 12, 2011 at 6:09 pm Reply
  9. Captain IQ

    "This battle was unfortunate, but nothing we cant handle. SC and carriers are replaced already. See ya for round 2. "

    Bet not as fast as those hurricanes were replaced or the ones needed for round 3,4,5 etc etc…

    September 12, 2011 at 6:31 pm Reply
    1. RAIDEN ARE IDIOTS

      Wait what? goons have tech.

      Even if they aren't reimbursed it only takes like an hour of ratting max.

      September 13, 2011 at 1:52 am Reply
  10. Anon

    "The ISK killed wasn’t anything even approaching the GSF tally"

    59B GSF lost vs 52B Raiden lost

    I give GSF props for getting the SC kills with BCs, but they still lost both the isk war and the # killmails war, despite what OP seems to claim. Follow OPs own KB link…

    September 12, 2011 at 7:58 pm Reply
    1. auouymous

      You are an idiot and clearly new to EVE. The two supers lost by Raiden along with 7 of their 9 carrier losses are counted on both sides of the killboard. GSF lost less than 15bil.

      Please learn how to read killboards before posting again.

      PS. You do however have the required lack of skills to be an editor on this site. :)

      September 12, 2011 at 8:26 pm Reply
  11. Don

    I sometimes wonder if this Ripard teg guy even plays eve sometimes, we have been using autocannon canes for about two months now, and we have had a handful of supers into structure, we have knowen all along that it was only a matter of time before we killed a super. That being said, why on earth you would call this a test case, when we have already engaged countless supers in this fleet setup, wiped just about everyone, but like I said we all knew it was only a matter of time before we got a super kill with it, and it doesn't really matter how many canes we have died im the last two months, i'd trade the 2-3K canes we have lost the last two months for two supers anyday.

    But yeah like I said earlier Ripard Teg ether hasn't been playing eve the last two months, or is a retard if he thinks this was our first test we have had with autocannon canes on supers, b/c it is litterly our tenth atleast, just happens to be our first real kill, which was only a matter of time.

    September 12, 2011 at 9:32 pm Reply
    1. I assure you that I do indeed play EVE. 😉

      I agree that GSF has been using Canes for a variety of purposes lately, but unless I'm completely mistaken, this is the first time a Welpfleet went toe-to-toe with a major supercap fleet and inflicted losses. Had you read the article, you would have realized that's what it said. Getting supers into structure doesn't count. Attacking a lone or pair of supers doesn't count.

      What counts is the use of the doctrine against its intended target — massed supers — and getting kills in the process. This was the first test case of that.

      September 13, 2011 at 3:26 pm Reply
      1. Don

        Yeah, your mistaken, like I said we have been flying autocannon canes for about two months, with the sole perpose of killing SC's, and we have come close many times.

        September 13, 2011 at 5:56 pm Reply
        1. HaydenJD

          Very close many times before we have come indeed, two Ragnarocks that escaped when our dictors all died to the smartbombing for example (White Noise. I think they were).

          September 13, 2011 at 11:00 pm Reply
          1. Guys, reading comprehension, please. This is the first time a Welpfleet went toe-to-toe with a major supercap fleet AND INFLICTED LOSSES. Close doesn't count.

            September 14, 2011 at 4:02 pm
          2. Don

            It doesn't matter that this was our first kill qith this setup is the point, bottom line is this was no test….. We have been useing autcannon with the sole purpose of killing SC's b/c DRF, and thier blues think they can drop them on anything and win, we have proven otherewise, and have been for sometime. The fact that this was our first kill(s) is not relevent when you use terms like "test" to describe what happened. Our test of this fleet type was months ago, and we once we actually did test it we knew all along we would be getting kills as long as we would get engaged.

            September 14, 2011 at 5:52 pm
  12. Sroasa

    Why the hell would you need hictors/dictors to prevent a SC from jumping out when HAS NO CAP?

    September 13, 2011 at 2:00 am Reply
  13. Point Of View

    The irony of the story is this… Light dictors do not require intensive amounts of training, on the contrary almost as much if not less then a welp cane. Considering that a fit dictor (god help you if your an idiot using a sabre for a welp fleet…) has two bubbles and a cloak… you should be able to get a minimum of 2 runs in before getting popped this being just by odds and statistics. With all this being said there should be zero reason why dc doesnt have a dedicated "welp bubble" squad available considering the fact that flycatchers and eris's are cheaper then welp cane 😛 Can get so much more super kills if you have some guys prioritize a bit 😛

    September 13, 2011 at 5:05 am Reply
  14. sour_

    yeah the canes r not a bad idea generally. im not sure tho how long can a campaign go with cannon fodder tactics…

    September 13, 2011 at 2:34 pm Reply
    1. HaydenJD

      Up untill "Winter" at least.

      September 13, 2011 at 11:01 pm Reply

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